RealGM Top 100 #3

[penbeast0]

RULES:
There will be a zero tolerance, one strike policy. If ANY poster is interrupting any of the threads in a negative way, OR causing any problems they're ability to vote will be taken away.

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days

Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:

Moses Malone

* 1x NBA Champion 1983 Philadelphia 76ers (NBA)
* 3x MVP (1979, 1982, 1983)
* 12x NBA All-Star (1978-1989), 1x ABA All-Star (1975)
* 4x All-NBA First Team Selection (1979, 1982, 1983, 1985)
* 4x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1980, 1981, 1984, 1987)
* 1x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1983)
* 1x NBA All-Defensive 2nd Team Selection (1979)
* 1x NBA Finals MVP (1983)
* All Rookie Team (ABA 1975)
* Basketball HOF Player (2001)


Julius Erving

NBA Champion (1983)
2× ABA Champion (1974, 1976)
2× ABA Playoffs MVP (1974, 1976)
NBA Most Valuable Player (1981)
3× ABA Most Valuable Player (1974–1976)
11× NBA All-Star (1977–1987)
5× ABA All-Star (1972–1976)
2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1977, 1983)
5× All-NBA First Team (1978, 1980–1983)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1977, 1984)
4× All-ABA First Team (1973–1976)
All-ABA Second Team (1972)
ABA All-Defensive First Team (1976)
ABA All-Rookie First Team (1972)
J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Award (1983)
NBA 35th Anniversary Team
ABA All-Time Team
NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team


Wilt Chamberlain

* 2x NBA champion (1967, 1972)
* 4x NBA MVP (1960, 1966-1968)
* 13x NBA All-Star (1960-1969, 1971-1973)
* 1x NBA Finals MVP (1972)
* 7x All-NBA First Team Selection (1960-1962, 1964, 1966-1968)
* 3x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1963, 1965, 1972)
* 2x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1972-1973)
* 1960 NBA Rookie of the Year
* 1x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1960)
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
* NBA 35th Anniversary Team

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

# 6x NBA Champion (1971, 1980, 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988
# 6x NBA MVP (1971-1972, 1974, 1976-1977, 1980)
# 19x NBA All-Star (1970-1977, 1979-1989)
# 2x NBA Finals MVP (1971, 1985)
# 10x All-NBA First Team Selection (1971-1973, 1974, 1976-1977, 1980-1981, 1984, 1986)
# 5x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1970, 1978-1979, 1983, 1985)
# 5x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1974-1975, 1979-1981)
# 6x NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1970-1971, 1976-1978, 1984)
# 1970 NBA Rookie of the Year
# 1970 NBA All-Rookie Team
# NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Magic Johnson


* 5× NBA Champion (1980, 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988)
* 3× NBA MVP (1987, 1989–1990)
* 12× All-Star (1980, 1982–1992)
* 3× NBA Finals MVP (1980, 1982, 1987)
* 9× All-NBA First Team Selection (1983–1991)
* 1× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1982)
* 12× All-Star (1980, 1982–1992)
* 1980 NBA All-Rookie Team
* 2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1990, 1992)
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Larry Bird

# 3x NBA Champion (1981, 1984, 1986)
# 3x NBA MVP (1984-1986)
# 12x All-Star (1980-1988, 1990-1992)
# 2x NBA Finals MVP (1984, 1986)
# 9x All-NBA First Team Selection (1980-1988)
# 1x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1990)
# 3x NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1982-1984)
# 1980 NBA Rookie of the Year
# 1980 NBA All-Rookie Team
# 1x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1982)
# 3x NBA Three-Point Shootout winner (1986-1988)
# NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Shaquille O'Neal

*4-time NBA Champion
*2000 NBA MVP
*92-'93 NBA Rookie of the Year
*3-time NBA Finals MVP
*3-time All-Star MVP
*14-time All-Star
*7 time All NBA First Team
*2 time All NBA Second Team
*3 time All NBA Third Team
*3 time All NBA Second Defensive Team
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Tim Duncan

4× NBA Champion (1999, 2003, 2005, 2007)
3× NBA Finals MVP (1999, 2003, 2005)
2× NBA Most Valuable Player (2002–2003)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1998)
13× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2011)
9× All-NBA First Team (1998–2005, 2007)
3× All-NBA Second Team (2006, 2008–2009)
All-NBA Third Team (2010)
8× All-Defensive First Team (1999–2003, 2005, 2007–2008)
5× All-Defensive Second Team (1998, 2004, 2006, 2009–2010)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1998)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2000)
Hakeem Olajuwon

* 2x NBA Champion (1994, 1995)
* 1x NBA MVP (1994)
* 12x All-Star (1985-1990, 1992-1997)
* 2x Finals MVP (1994-1995)
* 2x NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1993-1994)
* 6x All-NBA First Team Selection (1987-1989, 1993-1994, 1997)
* 3x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1986, 1990, 1996)
* 3x All-NBA Third Team Selection (1991, 1995, 1999)
* 5x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1987-1988, 1990, 1993-1994)
* 4x NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1985, 1991, 1996-1997)
* 1985 NBA All-Rookie Team
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Kobe Bryant

5× NBA Champion (2000, 2001, 2002, 2009, 2010)
2× NBA Finals MVP (2009–2010)
NBA Most Valuable Player (2008)
13× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2011)
2× NBA scoring champion (2006–2007)
9× All-NBA First Team (2002–2004, 2006–2011)
2× All-NBA Second Team (2000–2001)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1999, 2005)
9× All-Defensive First Team (2000, 2003–2004, 2006–2011)
2× All-Defensive Second Team (2001–2002)
NBA All-Rookie Second Team (1997)
4× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2002, 2007, 2009, 2011)
NBA Slam Dunk Contest champion (1997)

[penbeast0]

KAJ v. Wilt -- First, the statistical argument clearly favors Wilt . . . easily. Both raw and adjusted (for era pace and efficiency) numbers have him as the superior volume scorer and rebounder at his peak; even the superior passer. And, anecdotal evidence from contemporaries have Wilt as the more feared defender although the statistical evidence people are offerring is less clear. Kareem could shoot free throws and is more efficient but not by much when you count era differential. Wilt "only" averaged about 50% from the field his first few seasons but those were the all-time efficiency records for the day, He was 6th in the league his rookie year and then these are his efficiency standings relative to the other players of his era for the rest of his career:
1960-61 NBA .509 (1)
1961-62 NBA .505 (2)
1962-63 NBA .528 (1)
1963-64 NBA .524 (2)
1964-65 NBA .510 (1)
1965-66 NBA .540 (1)
1966-67 NBA .683 (1)
1967-68 NBA .595 (1)
1968-69 NBA .583 (1)
1970-71 NBA .545 (3)
1971-72 NBA .649 (1)
1972-73 NBA .727 (1)

Kareem clearly has a longevity edge as he does on everyone to ever play, but Wilt had a long season and from day 1 to the end was always a top 5 player in the league -- even in 72 when he wasn't scoring he was still leading the league in rebounding and a consensus choice for DPOY if such a thing had existed . . . and he won the ring as the best player on his team in a Russellesque performance. That's 13 years (one injured) with a 10 year peak better than Kareem's 10 year peak.

Finally, let's look at winning. This is the only clear edge Kareem has on Wilt (Though it's odd that those favoring Kareem over Wilt for winning rings then dismiss Russell). Wilt had two titles as the best player, 67 and 72 (yes, he was the best though he wasn't scoring big) -- he was blocked by Bill Russell with the GOAT dynasty ever. Kareem had . . .count them . . . two titles as the best player also, 71 and 80. While he was still a valuable 2nd option in 82 (23/8/3), Magic actually outrebounded him as a guard! and Magic was without question the team's leader. Magic was actually the team's emotional leader from day 1, Kareem's teams never performed above expectation except when led by another player, Oscar on a mission to prove he wasn't a loser in 71 and Magic from 80 onward. Kareem was not a guy to uplift his teammates -- maybe Wilt wasn't either with his crappy it's all about me attitude but the argument isn't that Wilt is more of a winner/leader than Kareem, it's that Kareem doesn't dominate Wilt in this area.

Kareem dominated the 70s, winning multiple MVPs in a league with no other legit superstar centers once Wilt retired except for Walton's 1 healthy season -- where he beat Kareem with less talent around him. Nate Thurmond had no offensive game (and unlike Russell, played as if he did hurting his team with his inefficient gunning), Reed/Cowens/Unseld were all undersized bangers who couldn't dominate in the opst, Artis Gilmore was in the ABA and his knees were breaking down by the time he came into the NBA. Kareem's main center competition was Bob McAdoo, as legit a center as Dirk Nowitski (whose game was very similar), a weak defensive high scoring jump shooter. Thus all the accolades, But Wilt also had all the accolades in the world despite competing with Russell, arguably the greatest center to ever play.

So, Wilt has the scoring, the rebounding, the passing, and the peak edge. Kareem has the longevity and was a great second banana while Wilt was always the man. The winning/leadership edge is even; they have the same number of titles as the main man despite Wilt facing much tougher competition. Wilt was better.

[penbeast0]

From the Wilt v. Kareem thread:

"Wilt had trouble against top centers (in the playoffs)" -- I think it's more accurate to say Wilt had trouble against the Celtics. I looked at his playoff history and here it is:

60 (rookie) Beat Dolph Schayes (SYR), Lost to Russell
61 Lost to Schayes ----
62 Beat Schayes, Lost to Russell
63 (missed playoffs -- had forgotten this!)
64 Beat Zelmo Beaty/Bob Pettit (ATL), Lost to Russell
65 (traded to 76ers) Beat Wayne Embry/Jerry Lucas (CIN), lost to Russell
66 Bye in 1st round, lost to Russell
67 Beat Connie Dierking/Jerry Lucas, Beat Russell!, Beat Nate Thurmond
68 Beat Walt Bellamy/Willis Reed (NYK), lost to Russell
69 (traded to LA) Beat Thurmond, Beat Beaty/Bill Bridges, lost to Russell
70 (Russell retires) Beat Fox/Paul Silas, beat Beaty/Bridges, lost to Reed
71 Beat Boerwinkle, lost to Jabbar
72 Beat Boerwinkle, Beat Jabbar, Beat Lucas/Phil Jackson (NYK)
Note -- teams where PFs guarded centers much of the time I listed both

See a trend?
Against Russell he was 1-7
HOF Dolph Schayes 2-1
Zelmo Beaty 3-0
Jerry Lucas 3-0 (F/C with Embry/Dierking/Jackson)
Nate Thurmond 2-0
Walt Bellamy 1-0
Willis Reed 2-1 (one year Reed played PF)
Tom Boerwinkle 2-0
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1-1

He had a winning record against every center he faced in the playoffs except Russell and Jabbar and he split 2 series with Jabbar. You could say Wilt had trouble facing top centers in the playoffs or you could just say he had trouble with Russell; the rest of the time his results look better than any other center you could name post Mikan (compare to Jabbar, Shaq, Hakeem, Moses, DRob, Ewing, Thurmond, Dwight, etc.)

v. Russell 1-7
v. Everyone Else 16-3

Kareem’s record v. other centers through 1981 (after that point he was no longer the best player on his own team)

1970 Beat Darrell Imhoff/Jim Washington (PHI), lost to Willis Reed (NYK)
1971 Beat Nate Thurmond (SF), Beat Wilt (LA), Beat Wes Unseld/Elvin Hayes (WAS)
1972 Beat Thurmond, Lost to Wilt
1973 Lost to Thurmond
1974 Beat Elmore Smith/Bill Bridges (LA), Beat Cliff Ray (CHI), Lost to Dave Cowens (BOS)
1975 (not in playoffs)
1976 (traded to LA, not in playoffs)
1977 Beat Ray (GS), lost to Bill Walton (POR)
1978 Lost to Marvin Webster/Jack Sikma (SEA)
1979 Beat Dan Issel (DEN), Lost to Sikma(SEA)
1980 Beat Alvin Adams (PHO), beat Sikma (SEA), beat Darryl Dawkins/Caldwell Jones (PHI)
1981 Lost to Moses Malone (HOU)

Overall record in playoffs 12-8 v. a variety of opponents
Subtracting his record against the foe that beat him most, Jack Sikma and Seattle, 11-6

[GilmoreFan]

This will be the last easy vote in a while. I vote Kareem. I'd imagine he'll win in a landslide, given how unlucky he was not to finish 2nd.

As for nominations, with Moses Malone now out of the way, all of my top 11 have been nominated. The next 2 are Lebron and Karl Malone in that order. I'm nominating Lebron this time around, hopefully Karl the next time. Lebron's peak is just too absurd to ignore, and he's already got 8 years under the belt, that's only 1 less than the number of prime years Larry Bird has, and only 1 less than the number of years Jordan had after his first retirement, when he was being mentioned as the GOAT already. Some people are going to rag on Lebron for longevity (fairly) and for the 2011 finals (unfairly), but for me he's earnt his stripes, and he's basically a lock to finish his career as a top 10 all-time player once he's done. The only thing keeping him out of the top 10 for me is longevity, since his peak is already ahead of some of the top 10 players.

[ronnymac2]

From the Wilt v. Kareem thread:

"Wilt had trouble against top centers" -- I think it's more accurate to say Wilt had trouble against the Celtics. I looked at his playoff history and here it is:

60 (rookie) Beat Dolph Schayes (SYR), Lost to Russell
61 Lost to Schayes ----
62 Beat Schayes, Lost to Russell
63 (missed playoffs -- had forgotten this!)
64 Beat Zelmo Beaty/Bob Pettit (ATL), Lost to Russell
65 (traded to 76ers) Beat Wayne Embry/Jerry Lucas (CIN), lost to Russell
66 Bye in 1st round, lost to Russell
67 Beat Connie Dierking/Jerry Lucas, Beat Russell!, Beat Nate Thurmond
68 Beat Walt Bellamy/Willis Reed (NYK), lost to Russell
69 (traded to LA) Beat Thurmond, Beat Beaty/Bill Bridges, lost to Russell
70 (Russell retires) Beat Fox/Paul Silas, beat Beaty/Bridges, lost to Reed
71 Beat Boerwinkle, lost to Jabbar
72 Beat Boerwinkle, Beat Jabbar, Beat Lucas/Phil Jackson (NYK)
Note -- teams where PFs guarded centers much of the time I listed both

See a trend?
Against Russell he was 1-7
HOF Dolph Schayes 2-1
Zelmo Beaty 3-0
Jerry Lucas 3-0 (F/C with Embry/Dierking/Jackson)
Nate Thurmond 2-0
Walt Bellamy 1-0
Willis Reed 2-1 (one year Reed played PF)
Tom Boerwinkle 2-0
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1-1

He had a winning record against every center he faced in the playoffs except Russell and Jabbar and he split 2 series with Jabbar. You could say Wilt had trouble facing top centers in the playoffs or you could just say he had trouble with Russell; the rest of the time his results look better than any other center you could name post Mikan (compare to Jabbar, Shaq, Hakeem, Moses, DRob, Ewing, Thurmond, Dwight, etc.)

v. Russell 1-7
v. Everyone Else 16-3

Kareem’s record v. other centers through 1981 (after that point he was no longer the best player on his own team)

1970 Beat Darrell Imhoff/Jim Washington (PHI), lost to Willis Reed (NYK)
1971 Beat Nate Thurmond (SF), Beat Wilt (LA), Beat Wes Unseld/Elvin Hayes (WAS)
1972 Beat Thurmond, Lost to Wilt
1973 Lost to Thurmond
1974 Beat Elmore Smith/Bill Bridges (LA), Beat Cliff Ray (CHI), Lost to Dave Cowens (BOS)
1975 (not in playoffs)
1976 (traded to LA, not in playoffs)
1977 Beat Ray (GS), lost to Bill Walton (POR)
1978 Lost to Marvin Webster/Jack Sikma (SEA)
1979 Beat Dan Issel (DEN), Lost to Sikma(SEA)
1980 Beat Alvin Adams (PHO), beat Sikma (SEA), beat Darryl Dawkins/Caldwell Jones (PHI)
1981 Lost to Moses Malone (HOU)

Overall record in playoffs 12-8 v. a variety of opponents
Subtracting his record against the foe that beat him most, Jack Sikma and Seattle, 11-6

I like how players are teams now...


I honestly didn't think KAJ would still be here at #3. I'm also surprised at how little love Wilt is getting. I mean, I don't think he is the best or second best ever, but I'm just surprised others don't either.


Vote: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Nominate: LeBron James


If I had to nominate somebody else though right now, it'd be Jerry West. I'll consider him if I see good arguments in this thread.

[Dr Positivity]

Vote Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Nominate Jerry West

The main vote isn't that hard for me. I'm going to tackle Wilt more when we get to him vs Magic/Bird/Shaq (I have Wilt as #7 on my list). For now all I'll say is I undoubtably think Kareem's playoff record is better and I see Wilt having no advantages to counteract that. Kareem's resume is complete and worthy of a #1 spot. Dominant offense, good defense, very good playoff record - Just because it's not Jordan or Russell doesn't mean he wasn't great most of the time. He was on his way to one of the greatest Finals performances of all time through 5 games in 1980 in particular, IMO, with to me Game 5 being one of the all time great playoff performances and every bit as good as Magic's Game 6 - and as timely considering the rest of the Lakers were playing fabulously **** in Game 5 except the half quarter he's out of the game, while Magic even without Kareem had a god mode shooting Wilkes and an overall jacked up team in Game 6

3rd straight nomination for West. More playoff acumen than KG and Karl and Lebron, more leadership than Oscar, more longevity than Moses. West has no weaknesses to me.

[drza]

I know most are considering this a foregone conclusion for Kareem, and I don't really have the time to post much tonight, but...at the moment I'm seriously considering Magic for the #3 spot. I haven't made any decisions yet, but I'd really like to see some discussion on some of the other candidates as well. I think we're getting to the slots where it should be more interesting and involved than just a few candidates.

[Dr Positivity]

My argument for Kareem over Magic would that at best Magic draws him year for year/pound for pound for me and if that's true, has to be Kareem for the longevity advantage. I'd have to accept prime Magic deserves to be ranked above prime Kareem and I definitely can't do that. That's the single biggest reason I don't consider Bird/Magic over Jordan/Russell/Kareem even though I consider them in contention for best peaks ever. At best it's a draw and then the big 3 just have more years.

[penbeast0]

The comment was that Wilt had trouble against top centers in the playoffs whereas it seems he only had trouble beating Russell . . . against everyone else he was fine. Thus I posted the centers he had matched up against in his playoffs . . . then did the same for Kareem.

[GilmoreFan]

Guys like Havlicek, West, Oscar and (especially) Mikan are going to drop like stones this time around. I was amazed where they were ranked on the last list. This time around I don't think those guys are making a nomination especially soon, especially Havlicek and Mikan. It's very encouraging to see.

[lorak]

3rd straight nomination for West. More playoff acumen than KG and Karl and Lebron, more leadership than Oscar, more longevity than Moses. West has no weaknesses to me.

I have one problem with that - Roberston was better player than West. Just like Magic was better than West, despite that West have the same advantage above Magic as above Robertson (defense).

[Doctor MJ]

Moving this over from the Kareem vs Wilt thread:

Let's start off looking at the college career.

Wilt's TS% was 51, while Kareem's was a 64. Was that a difference between eras? Not at all, Oscar's TS was around 60 around the same time as Wilt while scoring even more than Wilt.

So people need to understand immediately: It was not the case that Wilt was always scoring a the best possible volume & efficiency. Dude was far more raw as a scorer coming out of college than Kareem.

Wilt then improved to be about as efficient of a volume scorer as Oscar, but when Wilt stopped volume scoring, Oscar continued doing his thing until Kareem's rookie season with no real change to his efficiency, which was of course far less than what Kareem would do by his 2nd year.

ftr, Kareem's single season improvement in TS% from his first to his second year was 5.4%, a significantly greater leap while volume scoring than Wilt ever did, despite the fact that he had already starter out at a much higher level than Wilt.

I don't see any reason to say that Wilt was a more efficient volume scorer than the Oscar's of the world, and Oscar was not in Kareem's league there.

Then you've got to factor in Wilt's remarkable inability to create a good offense while volume scoring. Here's how the Warriors did before and during Wilt on offense relative to the median

Code: Select all

Year Relative
'58-59 -3.7% (before Wilt)
'59-60 -2.8% (Wilt rookie)
'60-61 -0.0%
'61-62 +1.1%
'62-63 +0.0%
'63-64 -2.3%
'64-65 -7.4% (Wilt half season)
'65-66 -3.7% (no Wilt)


Here's something similar with the 76ers:

Code: Select all

'63-64 -2.0% (no Wilt)
'64-65 +0.0% (Wilt half season)
'65-66 +0.0%
'66-67 +6.1% (Wilt stops volume scoring)

By comparison, here's what the Bucks' look like:

Code: Select all

'68-69 -1.5% (no Kareem)
'69-70 +4.0% (Kareem rookie)

Note: I don't have full league numbers for the next year, but the Bucks improved more.

I find this data astonishing, and to be clear, it's not Kareem's data that's noteworthy. That 5.5 improvement with Kareem is about what you'd expect when a team gets an offensive superstar. Wilt though basically never led to any great offense or even great offensive improvement until they made him stop scoring so much.

Praise should be given for Wilt being able to thrive in a more distributor role come '66-67 when he wasn't trained to do that, and I do consider him the best in the game at that point. However, that such an improvement occurred tells you there were serious problems when Wilt tried to score like Kareem, and the only way anyone found to solve them was literally make it so that when the starting lineup was on the floor: Wilt Chamberlain was the 5TH OPTION to shoot the ball!

You don't do that to someone who is truly the best ever at helping his team by putting the ball in the bucket.

Now add in all of Wilt's emotional baggage and bad habits, and the choice for me is easily Kareem here.

[Doctor MJ]

Vote: Kareem

Nomination: Garnett

[SDChargers#1]

My official vote is going to stay as it was last time: Kareem Abdul Jabbar

He is the all time leading scorer, 6 MVPs, 6 Titles, greatest longevity ever, great peak, most unstoppable shot in NBA history, good defense.

As for the nomination I will go with Oscar Robertson for the 3rd straight time.

Oscar is like Lebron peak wise except he won a title and has greater longevity (at this point). Lebron's 2 MVPs don't make up for that yet.

[ronnymac2]

David Stern and Regul8er-


I could not find any links talking about Kareem's injury in 1973. However, in the 1973 RPOY thread, TrueLaFan said he was, like, 99 percent certain Jabbar had an elbow injury. I would definitely understand your skepticism, but TLA really is one of the best- he wouldn't be making things up, and he knows his history.

Again, I'd understand your skepticism considering I can't find anything other than that.

I don't like bringing up personal things about players, but it appears Jabbar did go through a traumatic experience in 1973 when a group of his friends were murdered. He also was receiving death threats by the end of the season apparently.

I want my players to compartmentalize, but murder and death threats are legitimately more important than one's profession, no matter how elite one stands in their profession.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1087055/index.htm


Also, I'm not trying to drag down Nate Thurmond. I've been a proponent of Nate ever since I started posting here. I'm well aware that Wilt and KAJ called him the best defender they ever faced. I'm well aware of his defensive domination, rebounding prowess, and tremendous athletic ability. I'm not trying to lessen his accomplishments.

It's just that much is made of KAJ and perceived individual failures in the '70's, and I really don't think he has major black marks.

[GilmoreFan]

Stay strong on Lebron RonnyMac...

As for Oscar, his peak was never as good as Lebron, that's just categorically false, and his loser teams are strong evidence for that, along with the pace adjustment, shooting %, etc. It's more or less hypothetical that he'd be a better player now, but one thing that's clear is he sure wasn't when he actually played.

[Doctor MJ]

I know most are considering this a foregone conclusion for Kareem, and I don't really have the time to post much tonight, but...at the moment I'm seriously considering Magic for the #3 spot. I haven't made any decisions yet, but I'd really like to see some discussion on some of the other candidates as well. I think we're getting to the slots where it should be more interesting and involved than just a few candidates.

Kareem is the clear conclusion for me, but only because I've already given this so much thought. (As we get further along in the project, my votes will be much more sway-able).

Kareem vs Magic is my actual debate here, and I always feel so frustrated that we didn't get to see what Magic was capable of longevity-wise. While Bird's body was breaking down, Magic's seemed completely fine, and of course his game really wasn't dependent on the quickness of youth.

Go look at the guard spots for All-NBA 1st team, and review how good Magic was before his first retirement. (And for fun look at what rusty old man Magic did in '96 compared to rusty old man Jordan in Washington) Saying he'd have made 3-5 more 1st teams isn't just a possibility, it's what I'd expect to happen. And if he managed 3, he'd break the record for all players in history.

If not for HIV, I think Magic may have ended up my choice for #1 of all-time.

But the HIV did happen, and seeing him start his career a decade after Kareem and end it just 2 years after Kareem retired having won all his titles with Kareem, and Kareem having 5 MVPs without Magic...I just can't put Magic ahead of him.

[Wavy Q]

Gah i missed out on #2, oh well

I vote for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, i'm in the camp of Wilt underachieved in relation to his natural ability, so on my personal rankings he's around #5 or so. I actually think KAJ should've been 2nd but i can live with Bill Russell there as well.

and i'll nominate Jerry West

[JordansBulls]

Taking the two players with the long longevitity and top 2 all time in total season points.

Vote: Kareem
Nominate: Karl Malone

[ThaRegul8r]

David Stern and Regul8er-


I could not find any links talking about Kareem's injury in 1973. However, in the 1973 RPOY thread, TrueLaFan said he was, like, 99 percent certain Jabbar had an elbow injury. I would definitely understand your skepticism, but TLA really is one of the best- he wouldn't be making things up, and he knows his history.

Again, I'd understand your skepticism considering I can't find anything other than that.

I'm aware of the thread. I both participated in it when it was happening, and referenced it. With all due respect, I'm not particularly interested in how sure he was, I'm interested in the fact that he was unable to provide any evidence to back his claim, no one else was able to find any proof of this, yet everyone keeps repeating it. One doesn't have to be "making things up" in order to be mistaken. If I make a statement for which you or anyone else can't find any verification of, then I expect to be called out on it as well, regardless what my reputation on this board may or may not be. Which is why I post the examples illustrating what I'm talking about that some people dislike. Until someone can actually prove this, it should be dismissed as excuse making.