Shaq 1998-2003

[colts18]

The more I look at it, the more I think that this span could be the greatest 6 year uninterrupted peak in history.

Regular season:
28.1 PPG
11.8 Reb
3.1 AST
2.8 Turnovers
2.4 Blk
.577 FG%
.585 TS%
29.9 PER
.255 WS/48

He lead the league in PER and FG% every year from 98-02

Postseason:
29.3 PPG
13.7 Reb
3.0 AST
2.4 BLK
.554 FG%
.565 TS%
29.6 PER
.228 WS/48

During the 3peat years he averaged 30-15-3, .55 FG%, 29.3 PER (that's right, his PER was better outside the 3 peat years than during them). In the finals he averaged 36-15-4, 3 blk, 60 FG%. To put Shaq's finals run into perspective, he had a 20-10 and 50 FG% (lowest was 52%) in every single game of the 15 game finals run and had 30-10 in 13 out of 15 games (including every game of Nets and Pacers series).

During this span, The Lakers are:
290-106: .732 With Shaq
33-31: .516 without Shaq

214-79: .731 with Kobe
28-7: .800 without Kobe

It's clear that Shaq was the catalyst in this run.

[RoyceDa59]

It's hard to deny that Shaq's peak deserves mention as one of the greatest of all-time. He is only player since Jordan who was the undisputed best player in the league for half a decade.

[NYK 455]

He has a top 3 peak of all time, at the very least.

[JordansBulls]

Missed too many games in that stretch. 1998 missed 22, 1999 only 1, 2000 only 3, 2001 missed 8 games, 2002 and 2003 missed 15 games each year.

[JordansBulls]

The more I look at it, the more I think that this span could be the greatest 6 year uninterrupted peak in history.

Regular season:
28.1 PPG
11.8 Reb
3.1 AST
2.8 Turnovers
2.4 Blk
.577 FG%
.585 TS%
29.9 PER
.255 WS/48

He lead the league in PER and FG% every year from 98-02

Postseason:
29.3 PPG
13.7 Reb
3.0 AST
2.4 BLK
.554 FG%
.565 TS%
29.6 PER
.228 WS/48

During the 3peat years he averaged 30-15-3, .55 FG%, 29.3 PER (that's right, his PER was better outside the 3 peat years than during them). In the finals he averaged 36-15-4, 3 blk, 60 FG%. To put Shaq's finals run into perspective, he had a 20-10 and 50 FG% (lowest was 52%) in every single game of the 15 game finals run and had 30-10 in 13 out of 15 games (including every game of Nets and Pacers series).

During this span, The Lakers are:
290-106: .732 With Shaq
33-31: .516 without Shaq

214-79: .731 with Kobe
28-7: .800 without Kobe

It's clear that Shaq was the catalyst in this run.

Here is MJ's as well.

I used 7 years, could have used 6 as well probably would have been better.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... =ws_per_48

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... =ws_per_48

LED in PER and WS each of those seasons.

[colts18]

Here are Shaq's numbers head to head vs. some of the top centers of his era:
Mourning:
Shaq: 30-12-3 57 FG% (13-3 W-L)
Mourning: 21-9-1 44 FG% (Mourning's decline doesn't factor because Shaq played him 1 time after 2002)

Mutombo:
Shaq: 22-12-2, 52 FG% (17-7)
Mutombo: 8-9-0, 50 FG%
playoffs:
Shaq: 33-16-5, 57 FG% (4-1)
Mutombo: 17-12-0, 60 FG%

Robinson:
Shaq: 26-12-2, 54 FG% (11-12)
Robinson: 19-10-3, 47 FG%
Playoffs:
Shaq: 25-13-3, 52 FG% (9-8)
Robinson: 10-7-1, 45 FG% (all past Robinson's prime, but he had Duncan for help)

Ewing:
Shaq: 29-12-3, 54 FG% (15-11)
Ewing: 21-11-2, 44 FG%

Olajuwon:
Shaq: 22-12-4, 54 FG% (14-6)
Olajuwon: 18-9-3, 45 FG%
playoffs:
Shaq: 29-11-5, 56 FG% (3-5)
Olajuwon: 23-9-3, 47 FG% (so much for him dominating Shaq in the playoffs)

Ben Wallace:
Shaq: 25-10-3, 59 FG% (13-10)
Wallace: 6-9-1 51 FG% (his offensive numbers are irrelevant)
playoffs:
Shaq: 22-9-1, 61 FG% (8-14)
Wallace: 8-11-2, 47 FG% (again its irrelevant)

So Shaq was over 50 FG% against every single one of these guys and had a better FG% than these guys in the regular season and postseason with the exception of Mutombo's 2001 playoff which Shaq makes up with his dominating performance. He had a 63% regular season win% against these guys. He held all the guys who were good offensively (Robinson, Ewing, Olajuwon, and Mourning) to under 50 FG% in both the playoffs and regular season.

[Jordan23Forever]

Jordan's 1988-1993 is better.

Regular season during this stretch:

32.6 pts
6.6 reb
6.3 ast
2.8 stl
1.0 blk
52.5% FG
59.5% TS
30.5 PER
.292 WS/48


Playoffs during this stretch:

34.7 pts
6.7 reb
6.7 ast
2.3 stl
1.0 blk
50.5% FG
58.3% TS
29.8 PER
.268 WS/48


In the Finals during the three-peat:

36.3 pts
6.6 reb
7.9 ast
2.0 stl
.8 blk
53.7% FG
60.2% TS

Highlights of the finals runs include:

- 4 straight games of 40+ points in the 1993 Finals, an NBA record

- Back-to-back games of 39 pts/10+ ast in the 1992 Finals

- Back-to-back games of 33+ pts/12+ ast in the 1991 Finals, with 36 pts/12 ast and 33 pts/13 ast in games 1 & 2

- An NBA record 35 points in the first half of game 1 of the 1992 Finals, including an NBA record 6 three-pointers. All this despite sitting out nearly 7:00 of that half. He legitimately could have had a 42+ point half and 55+ for the game had he kept his foot on the gas pedal, but the Bulls were cruising.

- An NBA Finals record 41.0 ppg in the 1993 Finals.

- Averaged 11.4 assists per game in the 1991 Finals.

- Had a flawless game 2 of the '91 Finals, with 33 pts/7 reb/13 ast on 15-18 FG, including 13 consecutive made FG's, capped off by "the move."


He won 3 MVP's (and finished top 2 once and top 3 the other two times) and a DPOY (plus two other top 3 finishes and two other top 5 finishes in DPOY voting) during this 6-year span. Just an utterly dominant stretch.

Shaq is definitely on the short list for dominant 6-year stretches, though. Only MJ, KAJ, and Wilt and perhaps Bird really compare or exceed him.

[34Dayz]

I'd take 98-03 Shaq over anyone even Jordan.

and the fact that the only other players with similar primes are in contention for GOAT show just how good he was during that time period.

No one was more dominant and gave you a better chance at a title then Prime Shaq did.

[HEAT33]

Like SKip Bayless said, Prime Shaq was the best Center head to head of all-time. Nobody would stop him.

[ThaRegul8r]

Like SKip Bayless said, Prime Shaq was the best Center head to head of all-time. Nobody would stop him.

This makes it a whole lot easier:

PRO BASKETBALL; Missing From the N.B.A. Lineup: Peers for the One True Center

By CHRIS BROUSSARD
Published: February 10, 2002

Two years ago, Pete Newell, a longtime teacher of basketball and a specialist in tutoring big men, was addressing hundreds of college and high school coaches at a clinic in Palm Springs, Calif.

After stating that Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's sky hook was arguably the best, most proficient shot ever produced, Newell asked a question: ''How many of you could see the possibility of a player like Kareem executing his sky hook within the parameters of your offense?''

Not one coach raised his hand. So Newell repeated the question. The response was the same.

''I said, 'You know what you're telling me,' '' Newell said in a telephone interview last week. ''You're telling me that if Kareem went to your school and liked basketball, he would be the biggest darn manager in the history of the game.' ''

Imagine if professional basketball had never featured Abdul-Jabbar's graceful sky hook, or the legendary battles waged by Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain, or even the face-offs between Patrick Ewing and Hakeem Olajuwon. Sound farfetched?

Well, many respected people in basketball believe skilled post play is essentially a thing of the past and that the center position, once the most glamorous and dominating in the game, is now virtually bereft of first-rate players.

As evidence, they point to the National Basketball Association's 51st All-Star Game, which will be played Sunday at First Union Center in Philadelphia. Of the original 24 players selected to play, only 3 are bona fide centers. Shaquille O'Neal, the only offensively dominant center left in the league, will not play because of a toe injury.

Thus, the Western Conference team will feature five guards and seven forwards; the East will counter with seven guards, three forwards and two centers, neither of whom averages as many as 16 points a game.

As an aging generation of great centers -- Ewing, Olajuwon, David Robinson, Dikembe Mutumbo and Alonzo Mourning, who has been slowed by a kidney disease -- becomes less of a factor, a new wave of agile big men is redefining the role of frontcourt performers.

Players like Minnesota's Kevin Garnett, Sacramento's Chris Webber and Dallas's Dirk Nowitzki are changing the game by playing on the wing, facing the basket and showcasing the skills traditionally associated with small forwards or even guards.

Meanwhile, the center position is left to less talented, less athletic, often plodding players. So while six years ago there were five centers in the top 10 in scoring and rebounding, this season, O'Neal is the only center among the league's top 20 scorers. Among the top 20 in rebounding, only four play center exclusively.

''It's kind of a lost art,'' said Jerry West, the Hall of Fame player and former Laker general manager who constructed several championship teams, including the current one. ''If you look at all these young kids coming out who are 6-9 to 7 feet tall, they all want to play outside. They handle the ball extremely well, but the bottom line is that when somebody's that big, you certainly would prefer that they play closer to the basket, and more importantly, develop the kind of skills that back-to-the-basket centers have. I don't view this trend as a positive thing.''

Newell, who has run his highly regarded Big Man's Camp for the last 24 summers, said the nurturing of traditional post players began to fade when college and high school coaches began employing motion and flex offenses almost exclusively in the 1970's and 1980's.

In contrast to the post-oriented offenses that ran through the center and featured plenty of cutting and backdoor action, the motion and the flex rely on screening and creating shots for players coming away from the basket. They also congest the area near the basket, eliminating the space that is necessary for a post player to operate. That is why none of the coaches at Newell's clinic two years ago could imagine a player like Abdul-Jabbar having the room to utilize his sky hook in their offensive schemes.
''The adoption of those offenses meant the position of the post player was changed totally,'' said Newell, who has worked with Olajuwon, Abdul-Jabbar, O'Neal and Bill Walton, among hundreds of others.

''Motion and flex kind of took the center out in terms of being a skilled passer and shooter with various moves: hooks, reverses, spin moves, fake hooks.''

Several of today's more versatile big men point to another factor in their development: the effect of Magic Johnson and Larry Bird, two icons of the 1980's.

Johnson, the 6-foot-9 point guard with the dazzling floor play, and Bird, the 6-9 marksman, destroyed the notion that height relegated one to playing in the post. The allure of giving and taking bruises beneath the basket could not compare with the excitement that young players associated with Johnson leading the fastbreak and tossing no-look and behind-the-back passes.

''When I was younger and saw Magic, George Gervin and Larry Bird, who was 6-9 shooting 3's, I wanted to emulate them,'' said Webber, who is 6-10. ''I think it's just an evolution. It's more about being a basketball player now, and I think that's good. The misconception is gone that because you have a tall eighth grade son, he has to play center. Dirk Nowitzki's 7 feet shooting 3's. I think that's awesome for basketball.''

These days, it seems that only the less gifted youngsters aspire to play down low. The top two picks in last summer's N.B.A. draft, the 6-11 Kwame Brown of Washington and the 7-foot Tyson Chandler of Chicago, both want to be small forwards rather than centers. So the Wizards' future interior will be left to Brendan Haywood, a promising 7-foot rookie who admits to playing inside only because he lacks the skills to compete elsewhere.

''It's definitely more attractive to play outside,'' Haywood said. ''If you're a young player coming up, you're seeing guys crossing people up with the dribble, shooting deep 3's, doing fancy moves. A lot of kids want to go out there and be entertaining, so they learn to play different positions. I really didn't have that option. I wasn't talented enough to go out and play small forward. I've been a center all my life and I'm going to continue to be one.''

Wayne Embry, a five-time All-Star center in the 1960's and a Hall of Fame executive, believes this style-over-substance mentality has led potential centers to opt for a less taxing perimeter game.

''There's a great deal of insecurity in developing a back-to-the-basket game,'' Embry said. ''You have to work hard, practice right-and-left-handed hook shoots, counter moves. If you just play facing the basket, you just need to practice jump shooting and putting the ball on the floor and driving. Another reason is that you get punished down low. You've got to have some heart to play in the post.''

Mourning, who along with Mutombo will be the only true center in today's game, agreed that the physical pounding intrinsic to post play deters many players.

''Not too many guys want to take that beating down there that we take on a regular basis,'' Mourning said. ''That's why there aren't too many of us left.''

West contends that strong post play makes the game easier for everyone and is essential to winning titles. N.B.A. teams are indeed combing the globe for quality centers. The reason? While the new breed of big men may wow crowds with their versatility, the old throwback, O'Neal, has won the last two championships.

''It's fun to watch centers like Vlade Divac, who is an outside guy and moves the ball and doesn't just have one type of game,'' Dallas Coach Don Nelson said. ''But Shaq is probably the most important player in the game.

''He wins the titles. He's the guy that's unstoppable. If you can find another dominant guy, you're going to get him and let him do what Shaq does.''

But O'Neal had some bad news for the purists. ''I'm the last of the true centers,'' he said. ''After I leave, there won't be any more.''

[34Dayz]

Yea and Wilt played mostly against a bunch of 6Foot white guys and Jabbar played as the league was going through a huge expansion and the new crop of elite centers werent even rookies yet.. thats a silly game you play there.

Shaq was dominant against the best class of centers ever in the 90's and faced plenty of good defensive centers and defensive teams in the 00's and dominated them all. The idea that he never faced good competition (90's, TD + DRob, KG, and on and on) is just useless fodder used by Shaq haters. If anything out of Shaq, Wilt, Ewing, Hakeem Shaq faced the best competition and most overall.

He was absolutely unstoppable no matter who his opponent was.

[ThaRegul8r]

Yea and Wilt played mostly against a bunch of 6Foot white guys and Jabbar played as the league was going through a huge expansion and the new crop of elite centers werent even rookies yet.. thats a silly game you play there.

Funny. I didn't write this or pull it out of my behind. It was noted at the time it was happening. But these people were haters, right?

[34Dayz]

How does the fact that a few new bigmen chose to be more perimeter oriented players have anything to do with the fact that Shaq faced great/legendary competition at his position during his career and that most teams he faced were built around stopping him and were great defensively.

Just because you quoted someone doesn't mean what your saying isn't wrong. oh well chris jimbango told me Iverson is better then Kobe so dont argue with me I didnt say it.

Your agenda is clear and sad, sorry.

[ThaRegul8r]

Just because you quoted someone doesn't mean what your saying isn't wrong. oh well chris jimbango told me Iverson is better then Kobe so dont argue with me I didnt say it.

Your agenda is clear and sad, sorry.

Horrible strawman. Regardless how one feels about Kobe has nothing to do with the objective fact that Kobe was a better basketball player than Iverson.

I find it interesting how people never bring pertinent facts to the discussion. "I disagree with you. Here's why..." Which would actually be constructive, since this is a discussion board, and actually make people think. (gasp!) No, they get emotional, and resort to.... y-you're a hater! You obviously have an agenda! Etc., etc. Tactics designed to stifle anyone they disagree with, due to the lack of ability to intelligently discuss why they do. That's what's sad.

[34Dayz]

So because some random person you quoted said that the league was a certain way makes it anymore true despite the fact that I proved you wrong with actual examples and well known information?

Since I assume you know this information since its so well known / obvious and agreed upon by 99% of people here I must assume that you are basing your posts on your bias towards this player.

You were trying to say that Shaq's competition was less compared to other great centers, I proved you wrong I don't see what else there is to talk about.

Instead of quoting random sources all the time how about actually writing your own post explaining your pov and giving example of certain players and comparing them to this era if you feel strongly enough that your correct.

[Dipper 13]

Yea and Wilt played mostly against a bunch of 6Foot white guys and Jabbar played as the league was going through a huge expansion and the new crop of elite centers werent even rookies yet.. thats a silly game you play there.

Against "6 Foot white guys" Wilt may have averaged even greater numbers. Below we can see how easily he scores over 6'1, 195 lb Tom Seaver.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxXGUHYgZ1Y[/youtube]

[ThaRegul8r]

So because some random person you quoted said that the league was a certain way makes it anymore true despite the fact that I proved you wrong with actual examples and well known information?

"Chris Jimbango" would be a random person, as in your strawman example. Which is all you did: build a strawman.

Since I assume you know this information since its so well known / obvious and agreed upon by 99% of people here I must assume that you are basing your posts on your bias towards this player.

"You must assume?"

*raises eyebrow*

Well there's your mistake. Why would you "assume" anything? At that point, you're projecting onto other posters instead of simply dealing with the issue at hand. As I said, people let emotions leak into discussions.

[34Dayz]

Its not emotional its logical. If you don't know the history of the game and some of the great post players / defensive teams of the past 20 years then it will be hard to discuss this topic with you or take you seriously.

[ThaRegul8r]

If you don't know the history of the game

If I don't know the history of the game. This is downright comical.

[NO-KG-AI]

Yea and Wilt played mostly against a bunch of 6Foot white guys and Jabbar played as the league was going through a huge expansion and the new crop of elite centers werent even rookies yet.. thats a silly game you play there.

Against "6 Foot white guys" Wilt may have averaged even greater numbers. Below we can see how easily he scores over 6'1, 195 lb Tom Seaver.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxXGUHYgZ1Y[/youtube]

Didn't someone post the rosters from like 1965 or 1966, and not one Center in the league was below 6'9, nor were any white? lmao.