RealGM Top 100 List #10

[penbeast0]

RULES:
There will be a zero tolerance, one strike policy. If ANY poster is interrupting any of the threads in a negative way, OR causing any problems they're ability to vote will be taken away.

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days

Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:

Dirk Nowitzki

# NBA MVP (2007)
# NBA Champion (2011)
# NBA Finals MVP (2011)
# 4x All-NBA 1st Team
# 5x All-NBA 2nd Team
# 2x All-NBA 3rd Team
# 10x NBA All-Star

Charles Barkley

# NBA MVP (1991)
# 5x 1st Team All-NBA
# 5x 2nd Team All-NBA
# 1x 3rd Team All-NBA
# 11 times All-Star
# All-Star MVP 1991
# Hall of Fame 2006

LeBron James

# 2x NBA MVP (2009-2010)
# 5x All-NBA First Team Selection (2006-2011)
# 2x All-NBA Second Team Selection (2005-2006)
# 3x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (2009-2011)
# Rookie of the Year (2004)
# 7x All-Star
# 2xNBA All-Star Game MVP (2006, 2008)

Kevin Garnett

# NBA Champion (2009)
# NBA MVP (2004)
# 4x All-NBA First Team Selection (2000,2003-2004, 2008)
# 3x All-NBA Second Team Selection (2001-2002, 2005)
# 2x All-NBA Third Team Selection (1999, 2007)
# NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2008)
# 9x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (2000-2005, 2008-2009, 2011)
# 2x NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (2006-2007)
# 14x All-Star
# NBA All-Star Game MVP (2004)

Oscar Robertson

* NBA Champion (1971)
* NBA MVP (1964)
* NBA Rookie of the Year (1961)
* 3x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1961, 1964, 1969)
* 9× All-NBA First Team Selection (1961-1969)
* 2× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1970-1971)
* 12× All-Star (1961-1972)
* Voted to the HOF in 1980
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Jerry West

* NBA Champion (1972)
* NBA Finals MVP (1969)
* 14× All-Star (1961-1974)
* NBA All-Star Game MVP (1972)
* 10× All-NBA First Team Selection (1962-1967, 1970-1973)
* 2× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1968-1969)
* 4X NBA All-Defense Team Selection (1970-1973)
* 1X NBA All-Defense Team Selection (1969)
* Voted to the Hall of Fame in 1980
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Karl Malone

# 2x NBA MVP (1997, 1999)
# 14x NBA All-Star (1970-1977, 1979-1989)
# 2x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1989, 1993)
# 11x All-NBA First Team Selection (1988-1999)
# 2x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1986-2000)
# 1x All-NBA Third Team Selectin (2001)
# 3x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1997-1999)
# 6x NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1988)
# 1986 All-Rookie 1st Team
# Elected to the Basketball HOF in 2010 as a player

Moses Malone

* 1x NBA Champion 1983 Philadelphia 76ers (NBA)
* 3x MVP (1979, 1982, 1983)
* 12x NBA All-Star (1978-1989), 1x ABA All-Star (1975)
* 4x All-NBA First Team Selection (1979, 1982, 1983, 1985)
* 4x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1980, 1981, 1984, 1987)
* 1x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1983)
* 1x NBA All-Defensive 2nd Team Selection (1979)
* 1x NBA Finals MVP (1983)
* All Rookie Team (ABA 1975)
* Basketball HOF Player (2001)

Julius Erving

NBA Champion (1983)
2× ABA Champion (1974, 1976)
2× ABA Playoffs MVP (1974, 1976)
NBA Most Valuable Player (1981)
3× ABA Most Valuable Player (1974–1976)
11× NBA All-Star (1977–1987)
5× ABA All-Star (1972–1976)
2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1977, 1983)
5× All-NBA First Team (1978, 1980–1983)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1977, 1984)
4× All-ABA First Team (1973–1976)
All-ABA Second Team (1972)
ABA All-Defensive First Team (1976)
ABA All-Rookie First Team (1972)
J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Award (1983)
NBA 35th Anniversary Team
ABA All-Time Team
NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Kobe Bryant

5× NBA Champion (2000, 2001, 2002, 2009, 2010)
2× NBA Finals MVP (2009–2010)
NBA Most Valuable Player (2008)
13× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2011)
2× NBA scoring champion (2006–2007)
9× All-NBA First Team (2002–2004, 2006–2011)
2× All-NBA Second Team (2000–2001)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1999, 2005)
9× All-Defensive First Team (2000, 2003–2004, 2006–2011)
2× All-Defensive Second Team (2001–2002)
NBA All-Rookie Second Team (1997)
4× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2002, 2007, 2009, 2011)

[penbeast0]

I thought Kobe was pretty overrated until the last two championships with basically Gasol and Odom as top sidekicks. Since I don't think of either of them as superstars, that impressed me . . . although Phil Jackson is again the GOAT coach but we haven't been downgrading others (MJ, Russell, Shaq, etc.) for this factor. So, I had to reevaluate Kobe, particularly defensively where anecdotal evidence by NBA players rates him higher than I had based on watching him. I loved Doc and was never a Kobe fan but I have to move him into the top 10 for his scoring, his two way game, his manic intensity, and the results.

Nomination factors haven't changed from the last post so I will just quote myself (though not in the third person):

C David Robinson -- yes, his playoff numbers are down but he was still a monster, particularly defensively and he was better than Hakeem, who we are voting in here, in the regular season. Gilmore is better than Patrick Ewing and should be the next nominated center after the Admiral.

PF Pettit -- He was the greatest player in the NBA pre-Russell and was still top 5/6 right up until his retirement (I have him rated over Baylor during that period plus he was the best pre-Baylor). I'd rate him over Kevin Garnett too, quite possibly, and certainly over Barkley though Garnett is a much tougher call. Mailman, Pettit/Garnett, Dirk, Barkley is how I rate the top PFs.

SF Pippen -- over Baylor and Barry though it's another very tough call; Baylor was so much more dominant but it was a Wilt lite kind of dominance it seems. Much easier to put Pippen over Havlicek.

SG Wade -- over Drexler. Much as I want to put Sidney Moncrief in this category because his peak was close to those guys, it wasn't better and they have better career arcs (even Wade).

PG Frazier -- over Payton and Stockton. It's WAY too early to be talking about Isiah, he's in the next level with Nash and Kidd. Frazier was at least as important to the Knicks' two championships as Isiah to the Pistons and he was a better scorer (similar volumes but much more efficient) and much better defender.

It's between Robinson and Pettit for me and although Pettit was more dominant for his era, I go with David Robinson because I still believe that championships are won by controlling the middle (at least through most of NBA history).

Vote Kobe Bryant
Nominate David Robinson

[Pistol Pete Vescey]

V: Kobe
N: D-Rob

[ronnymac2]

D-Wade should get in over Robinson. Robinson doesn't even really have a significant longevity edge, and certainly wasn't a better player than Wade peak vs. peak. I'll take the guy who consistently shows up in the playoffs vs. the one who disappears, over and over and over again...

Not posting anything official yet, but Wade is almost certainly getting my nomination.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Vote; Kobe

Nomination: DRob

D-Wade should get in over Robinson. Robinson doesn't even really have a significant longevity edge, and certainly wasn't a better player than Wade peak vs. peak. I'll take the guy who consistently shows up in the playoffs vs. the one who disappears, over and over and over again...

You make a good point. I'm still nominating DRob, but Wade may be next after him.

[Black Feet]

Vote: Kobe
Nominate: David Robinson

[penbeast0]

I'd like to hear more DRob/Wade/Pettit debate; mentally I'm still discounting Wade for a short, somewhat injury raddled career more than I am Robinson . . . and Pettit's raw numbers are probably the best of the three, even adjusting for era pace and relative shooting percentage (he drew more fouls than Wade hard as that is to believe -- though there is the possible racial bias issue there by white refs).

[Dr Positivity]

My vote is between Kobe, West, Oscar, Erving, KG and the Malones

First cut goes to Oscar because I have West ahead of him, due to the defensive addition and the intangibles/team effect where West has big kudos while Oscar himself has said his team didn't have good chemistry. It's enough to make the slight edge

Second cut goes to Moses Malone because I have Kobe Bryant ahead of him. Strong arguments were made in Karl Malone's favor about how his longevity outweighs Moses' prime (how much better would Moses have to be in his prime to make up for the other years, in other words). I'm not sure how strongly I feel about that just because of my concerns about peak Karl in the playoffs, but with Kobe it becomes pretty easy. Prime Kobe and prime Moses is a near wash to me anyways, add Kobe's longevity and yeah.

So that leaves Kobe, West, KG, Erving, Karl. I can't bring myself to vote Karl here with his playoff hiccups. 1990 and 1995 Game 5s against Phoenix and Houston he basically stops shoot as his team blows a 4th quarter lead in the last 5 minutes and KJ and Hakeem outplay him. 1996 he misses the 2 FTs and is the one guarding Kemp when he scores the winning plays. 1997 G1 he misses the 2 FTs while Jordan wins it. Karl's end to the Flu Game is a complete atrocity. Karl was fading away so much on his jumpshots that he actually faded away on a FT shot. + wild 23 footer near the end + not fouling with 13 seconds left (clearly he brainfarted because of his 5 fouls) leading to an open Longley dunk to seal it. Can't vote Karl here with those 5 brutal 4th quarter collapses on his resume.

Jerry West feels like a better player than Julius Erving to me. Perhaps I can be persuaded. I am very concerned about Erving's 15 feet and out game and I think the ABA was obviously far less capable of real defensive strategy to take advantage of it than the NBA eventually was. Erving might be the GOAT at recognizing space and striking 15 feet and in, his best feature is finding a nook to explode into and get to the rim. But I feel like West's perimeter skill to go along with ability to go to the rim, make him superior. I also feel like West has more defensive credit.

West vs Kobe vs KG. Let's breakdown some factors

West gives you less years and misses a few playoff seasons on top of that, then has some 50-60 G seasons

KG is the least playoff prolific, though doesn't get the oppurtunity and as a defensive big man, isn't as reliant on huge scoring games for his impact

Kobe has the leadership/intangibles issue while the other two are spotless in that area

Who would I draft? I'd go with my gut and take Kevin Garnett for his complete impact. Has the scoring skill, passing, defensive impact, rebounding, has the health West doesn't and has the team make-up effect Kobe doesn't. I've learned to trust APM numbers that big probably are a good sign and at the least cancel out the fact that he had those missed playoff years and weak DRTGs. Looking at it, KG has health West doesn't and has the mindset Kobe doesn't and his peak stats are the best. Overall I feel like a very strong case could be made that the reasons Hakeem and Duncan got in over Kobe should apply to Garnett, he just had less luck.

Vote Kevin Garnett

Nominate Dwyane Wade

Wade has almost as much prime longevity as Robinson and Frazier (the two best peak players left on the board) and I see him as the best player of the 3 pretty clearly.

[therealbig3]

I'm pretty sure who I'm voting for, but I'd like to hear more discussion about the nominations, namely Wade vs Robinson.

[Gongxi]

I have no idea who I'm voting for here: there's about 6-7 legit options. I'll be nominating DRob, though.

[andrewww]

vote: kobe
nomination: elgin baylor

[Dr Positivity]

Still tossing about Robinson vs Wade too. Robinson has 7 pre injury years, Wade has 5 super years. But Robinson has a solid 4 2nd/3rd team All-NBA, 20 PER seasons and then was valuable in 03 too. That makes a pretty substantial gap in years between the two. Still, I don't trust Robinson like I do Wade. At all.

I don't think he'll be in contention here, but I have Walt Frazier in the same boat as Nash, Payton, Stockton, Isiah, ie. not in the same class as these guys.

[dan_atko97]

vote; kobe
nominate; wade

wade has one 1 championship on his own, consitently a top 3 player in the league leading his team of scrubs to the playoffs, his all around stats also speak for themselves.

[shawngoat23]

My vote comes down to three perimeter players (Erving, Bryant, and West), with Moses Malone and Oscar Robertson knocking just behind.

I think Erving in his prime was the best of the three, followed by West and then Bryant based on ability as players (i.e. "my power ranking"). However, I do consider Bryant slightly more decorated than Erving and clearly more so than West (i.e. "my career ranking"). My overall ranking is a composite of both, with Erving > Bryant > West.

Unlike some, I don't hold Erving's ABA accomplishments against him, because I believe that the ABA was in fact the stronger league during Erving's prime, and he was pretty much a stud in the NBA as well. So my vote goes to Julius Erving.

Nomination goes to David Robinson, who I've been hawking for the last few threads. In retrospect, that would probably have been a weak nomination, but I'm putting him over Bob Pettit, who has a strong case as well, and for whom a persuasive argument may sway my vote.

Edit: I'm also considering John Havlicek for my nomination.

[lorak]

Haha, how many Kobe's fans suddenly come from nowhere and voted.


For me it's between KG, Dr J and Malones.

Dr Mufasa,
you are talking about Karl's collapses, but lets look at some of Kobe's poor performances in elimination games:

2002 - G7 vs Kings (10/26 FG)
2003 - G6 vs Spurs (9/19 FG, 7 tov)
2004 - G5 vs Pistons (7/21 FG)
2006 - G7 vs Suns (no will to fight in 2nd half; lost 3-1 lead)
2008 - G6 vs Celtics (again no will to fight in 2nd half; 7/22 FG)
2009 - G7 vs Rockets (4/12 FG)
2010 - G7 vs Celtics (6/24 FG)
2011 - G4 vs Mavs

That's even worse than what Malone did.

[ronnymac2]

I'm pretty sure who I'm voting for, but I'd like to hear more discussion about the nominations, namely Wade vs Robinson.

I'd invite you to peek at the RPOY threads of the mid-'90s. Take a look at the ways Robinson's game was deconstructed by numerous posters in those threads. See why he failed as an individual numerous times at his peak. It isn't just the Hakeem series either. It's multiple series. It's almost every single year.

Dwyane Wade's poor play or the flaws in his game are rarely if ever the direct cause of his team losing.

[ronnymac2]

Haha, how many Kobe's fans suddenly come from nowhere and voted.


For me it's between KG, Dr J and Malones.

Dr Mufasa,
you are talking about Karl's collapses, but lets look at some of Kobe's poor performances in elimination games:

2002 - G7 vs Kings (10/26 FG)
2003 - G6 vs Spurs (9/19 FG, 7 tov)
2004 - G5 vs Pistons (7/21 FG)
2006 - G7 vs Suns (no will to fight in 2nd half; lost 3-1 lead)
2008 - G6 vs Celtics (again no will to fight in 2nd half; 7/22 FG)
2009 - G7 vs Rockets (4/12 FG)
2010 - G7 vs Celtics (6/24 FG)
2011 - G4 vs Mavs

That's even worse than what Malone did.

Not going to comment on Kobe vs. Malone yet, so don't take this as me supporting Bryant, but....

He wasn't as bad as the shooting suggests in 2002. He played well in game 7 and created opportunities down the stretch. I believe he also had 10 rebounds and 7 assists.

In 2003, he did have an injured shoulder and looked incredibly tired after bringing the the Lakers back from the brink in game 5 (Horry's missed shot). He didn't play well in game 6, but both he and Shaq needed to do insane heavy lifting because the supporting cast was hurt or old. He played well enough through the first five games. It's like saying LBJ in game 6 of the 2009 ECF was meh because it wasn't one of his 38/8/8 games.

2006...I've gone over this numerous times. He didn't play badly in that game, and he certainly didn't quit.

The game 7 against the Rockets is misleading...he actually played really well in a blowout victory.

I also don't think he played badly in 2011 vs. Dallas. His defense sucked, but he tried keeping the Lakers in it and was scoring well against Kidd IIRC. The thing is, he just couldn't get to the hoop like prime Kobe, so they could afford to single cover him, and the other Lakers didn't give him any help.


I know it seems like I'm trying to cover up for Kobe, but that's not my intention. I may be a Laker fan, but I'm not one of those crazy Kobe fans. Kobe's not the most awesome playoff performer, but some of those games really aren't poor games.

[therealbig3]

I'm pretty sure who I'm voting for, but I'd like to hear more discussion about the nominations, namely Wade vs Robinson.

I'd invite you to peek at the RPOY threads of the mid-'90s. Take a look at the ways Robinson's game was deconstructed by numerous posters in those threads. See why he failed as an individual numerous times at his peak. It isn't just the Hakeem series either. It's multiple series. It's almost every single year.

Dwyane Wade's poor play or the flaws in his game are rarely if ever the direct cause of his team losing.

When you say mid 90's, do you mean 94-96, mainly?

Also, do you have specific posters in mind that I should read, to get an idea of Robinson's failures? I'm only asking, because I really am interested in reading about Robinson and get an idea of where he should rank, but I started looking through the 93 thread, and it's a LOT of info, it's hard to single out the info on Robinson lol.

[ronnymac2]

Haha It does get dense. I'd say skim through 94-96. Kaima makes great posts. TrueLaFan makes a few posts regarding Robinson's defense and his numbers against other prominent frontcourt stars in the playoffs during this period. I'm pretty sure I described Robinson's game in each thread as well.

He was a major point of discussion in those threads.

[ronnymac2]

Actually, I can tell you what series to look for on bball-reference...'94 vs. Utah, '95 vs. Denver (Deke held him down), '95 vs. Houston (the game 6 is incredible...Olajuwon puts up a GOAT performance; meanwhile, if I knew nothing about Robinson, I'd think he was a defensive C with great reflexes and quickness), and '96 vs. Utah.