Real GM Top 100 List #11
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Real GM Top 100 List #11
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Real GM Top 100 List #11
RULES:
There will be a zero tolerance, one strike policy. If ANY poster is interrupting any of the threads in a negative way, OR causing any problems they're ability to vote will be taken away.
Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.
Voting Will End In 2 Days
Please vote and nominate
Newest addition:
David Robinson
2× NBA Champion (1999,2003)
NBA MVP (1995)
4x All-NBA 1st Team
2x All-NBA 2nd Team
4x All-NBA 3rd Team
4x All-NBA 1st Team
NBA DPOY (1992)
4x NBA All-Defense 1st Team
4x NBA All-Defense 2nd Team
NBA ROY (1990)
10x All-Star
Dirk Nowitzki
# NBA MVP (2007)
# NBA Champion (2011)
# NBA Finals MVP (2011)
# 4x All-NBA 1st Team
# 5x All-NBA 2nd Team
# 2x All-NBA 3rd Team
# 10x NBA All-Star
Charles Barkley
# NBA MVP (1991)
# 5x 1st Team All-NBA
# 5x 2nd Team All-NBA
# 1x 3rd Team All-NBA
# 11 times All-Star
# All-Star MVP 1991
# Hall of Fame 2006
LeBron James
# 2x NBA MVP (2009-2010)
# 5x All-NBA First Team Selection (2006-2011)
# 2x All-NBA Second Team Selection (2005-2006)
# 3x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (2009-2011)
# Rookie of the Year (2004)
# 7x All-Star
# 2xNBA All-Star Game MVP (2006, 2008)
Kevin Garnett
# NBA Champion (2009)
# NBA MVP (2004)
# 4x All-NBA First Team Selection (2000,2003-2004, 2008)
# 3x All-NBA Second Team Selection (2001-2002, 2005)
# 2x All-NBA Third Team Selection (1999, 2007)
# NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2008)
# 9x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (2000-2005, 2008-2009, 2011)
# 2x NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (2006-2007)
# 14x All-Star
# NBA All-Star Game MVP (2004)
Oscar Robertson
* NBA Champion (1971)
* NBA MVP (1964)
* NBA Rookie of the Year (1961)
* 3x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1961, 1964, 1969)
* 9× All-NBA First Team Selection (1961-1969)
* 2× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1970-1971)
* 12× All-Star (1961-1972)
* Voted to the HOF in 1980
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
Jerry West
* NBA Champion (1972)
* NBA Finals MVP (1969)
* 14× All-Star (1961-1974)
* NBA All-Star Game MVP (1972)
* 10× All-NBA First Team Selection (1962-1967, 1970-1973)
* 2× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1968-1969)
* 4X NBA All-Defense Team Selection (1970-1973)
* 1X NBA All-Defense Team Selection (1969)
* Voted to the Hall of Fame in 1980
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
Karl Malone
# 2x NBA MVP (1997, 1999)
# 14x NBA All-Star (1970-1977, 1979-1989)
# 2x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1989, 1993)
# 11x All-NBA First Team Selection (1988-1999)
# 2x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1986-2000)
# 1x All-NBA Third Team Selectin (2001)
# 3x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1997-1999)
# 6x NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1988)
# 1986 All-Rookie 1st Team
# Elected to the Basketball HOF in 2010 as a player
Moses Malone
* 1x NBA Champion 1983 Philadelphia 76ers (NBA)
* 3x MVP (1979, 1982, 1983)
* 12x NBA All-Star (1978-1989), 1x ABA All-Star (1975)
* 4x All-NBA First Team Selection (1979, 1982, 1983, 1985)
* 4x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1980, 1981, 1984, 1987)
* 1x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1983)
* 1x NBA All-Defensive 2nd Team Selection (1979)
* 1x NBA Finals MVP (1983)
* All Rookie Team (ABA 1975)
* Basketball HOF Player (2001)
Julius Erving
NBA Champion (1983)
2× ABA Champion (1974, 1976)
2× ABA Playoffs MVP (1974, 1976)
NBA Most Valuable Player (1981)
3× ABA Most Valuable Player (1974–1976)
11× NBA All-Star (1977–1987)
5× ABA All-Star (1972–1976)
2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1977, 1983)
5× All-NBA First Team (1978, 1980–1983)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1977, 1984)
4× All-ABA First Team (1973–1976)
All-ABA Second Team (1972)
ABA All-Defensive First Team (1976)
ABA All-Rookie First Team (1972)
J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Award (1983)
NBA 35th Anniversary Team
ABA All-Time Team
NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
There will be a zero tolerance, one strike policy. If ANY poster is interrupting any of the threads in a negative way, OR causing any problems they're ability to vote will be taken away.
Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.
Voting Will End In 2 Days
Please vote and nominate
Newest addition:
David Robinson
2× NBA Champion (1999,2003)
NBA MVP (1995)
4x All-NBA 1st Team
2x All-NBA 2nd Team
4x All-NBA 3rd Team
4x All-NBA 1st Team
NBA DPOY (1992)
4x NBA All-Defense 1st Team
4x NBA All-Defense 2nd Team
NBA ROY (1990)
10x All-Star
Dirk Nowitzki
# NBA MVP (2007)
# NBA Champion (2011)
# NBA Finals MVP (2011)
# 4x All-NBA 1st Team
# 5x All-NBA 2nd Team
# 2x All-NBA 3rd Team
# 10x NBA All-Star
Charles Barkley
# NBA MVP (1991)
# 5x 1st Team All-NBA
# 5x 2nd Team All-NBA
# 1x 3rd Team All-NBA
# 11 times All-Star
# All-Star MVP 1991
# Hall of Fame 2006
LeBron James
# 2x NBA MVP (2009-2010)
# 5x All-NBA First Team Selection (2006-2011)
# 2x All-NBA Second Team Selection (2005-2006)
# 3x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (2009-2011)
# Rookie of the Year (2004)
# 7x All-Star
# 2xNBA All-Star Game MVP (2006, 2008)
Kevin Garnett
# NBA Champion (2009)
# NBA MVP (2004)
# 4x All-NBA First Team Selection (2000,2003-2004, 2008)
# 3x All-NBA Second Team Selection (2001-2002, 2005)
# 2x All-NBA Third Team Selection (1999, 2007)
# NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2008)
# 9x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (2000-2005, 2008-2009, 2011)
# 2x NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (2006-2007)
# 14x All-Star
# NBA All-Star Game MVP (2004)
Oscar Robertson
* NBA Champion (1971)
* NBA MVP (1964)
* NBA Rookie of the Year (1961)
* 3x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1961, 1964, 1969)
* 9× All-NBA First Team Selection (1961-1969)
* 2× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1970-1971)
* 12× All-Star (1961-1972)
* Voted to the HOF in 1980
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
Jerry West
* NBA Champion (1972)
* NBA Finals MVP (1969)
* 14× All-Star (1961-1974)
* NBA All-Star Game MVP (1972)
* 10× All-NBA First Team Selection (1962-1967, 1970-1973)
* 2× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1968-1969)
* 4X NBA All-Defense Team Selection (1970-1973)
* 1X NBA All-Defense Team Selection (1969)
* Voted to the Hall of Fame in 1980
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
Karl Malone
# 2x NBA MVP (1997, 1999)
# 14x NBA All-Star (1970-1977, 1979-1989)
# 2x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1989, 1993)
# 11x All-NBA First Team Selection (1988-1999)
# 2x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1986-2000)
# 1x All-NBA Third Team Selectin (2001)
# 3x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1997-1999)
# 6x NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1988)
# 1986 All-Rookie 1st Team
# Elected to the Basketball HOF in 2010 as a player
Moses Malone
* 1x NBA Champion 1983 Philadelphia 76ers (NBA)
* 3x MVP (1979, 1982, 1983)
* 12x NBA All-Star (1978-1989), 1x ABA All-Star (1975)
* 4x All-NBA First Team Selection (1979, 1982, 1983, 1985)
* 4x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1980, 1981, 1984, 1987)
* 1x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1983)
* 1x NBA All-Defensive 2nd Team Selection (1979)
* 1x NBA Finals MVP (1983)
* All Rookie Team (ABA 1975)
* Basketball HOF Player (2001)
Julius Erving
NBA Champion (1983)
2× ABA Champion (1974, 1976)
2× ABA Playoffs MVP (1974, 1976)
NBA Most Valuable Player (1981)
3× ABA Most Valuable Player (1974–1976)
11× NBA All-Star (1977–1987)
5× ABA All-Star (1972–1976)
2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1977, 1983)
5× All-NBA First Team (1978, 1980–1983)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1977, 1984)
4× All-ABA First Team (1973–1976)
All-ABA Second Team (1972)
ABA All-Defensive First Team (1976)
ABA All-Rookie First Team (1972)
J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Award (1983)
NBA 35th Anniversary Team
ABA All-Time Team
NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
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- Sixth Man
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Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
To me this is between Dr. J, Malone, and KG. I'd like to hear arguments for all three before I make my vote. I will go ahead and Nominate: Dwyane Wade
Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
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- Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
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Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
Moses is probably the best center but I don’t have him as high as Karl Malone or Kevin Garnett at forward. He was a monster rebounder and had a super high offensive peak but his efficiency dropped badly as his athleticism slipped and he was never a great (or even a good) passer and defensively, he didn’t really anchor a defense. Tim Duncan basically played defense like a dominant center, Moses basically played defense like a physical PF type similar to Karl Malone and not as impressively as Kevin Garnett.
Garnett is the greatest defensive forward of the next group and the greatest of the 21st century so far. He was also a very good offensive player with good scoring and passing skills. Very complete, very very good, but not as consistently outstanding as Karl Malone
Malone is my choice among the remaining bigs. He was the most consistently outstanding with his incredible consistency and ironman streak and his playoff performance has been gone over (and will be gone over again) many times in the last few threads.
Julius Erving was, at his ABA peak, even more spectacular and feared than Malone and a his equal defensively (less man, better help). He wasn’t quite up to the Mailman level as an NBA star partially due to role and partially due to age and league. It’s a tough choice between the Doctor and the Mailman; my heart says Doc, my head says Mailman.
Oscar Robertson and Jerry West are the last two serious candidates for this spot. I rate West over Oscar for his defense and playoff heroics; the Lakers were a consistent finalist for almost 10 years just running into the Russell Celtics each time. Karl Malone v. Jerry West is pretty tough. West equals Malone at scoring and defense but is missing the rebounding edge that Karl Malone gives you. However, despite 1972, the playoff heroics that gave him the nickname “Mr. Clutch” and a finals MVP for the losing team (how often has that happened?) make him my choice as #11 on the list.
I am, however, far from set in stone on any of these evaluations and am willing to change my mind so convince me . . . .
VOTE: JERRY WEST
C Artis Gilmore. Much more efficient and better defensively in his prime than Patrick Ewing though Ewing was no slouch. Ewing has more shooting range and is much more aggressive offensively while Artis let’s the offense come to him which is a problem; if Artis had had the aggression of an Alonzo Mourning, he’d be Shaq like, he was that big/strong/athletic in his day. Even after the knee surgery, he was still an incredibly efficient scorer, more efficient in the NBA – possibly because with the lesser mobility, he spent more time just camping out low and backing his man down rather than trying to move and cut from the midpost like in Kentucky. Artis has probably the two most efficient seasons of all time with Chicago, and on the big stage, in 1975 he carried a good Kentucky team to the ABA title as the clear best player and playoff MVP.
PF Pettit -- He was the greatest player in the NBA pre-Russell and was still top 5/6 right up until his retirement (I have him rated over Baylor during that period plus he was the best pre-Baylor). I'd rate him over Kevin Garnett too, quite possibly, and certainly over Barkley though Garnett is a much tougher call. Mailman, Pettit/Garnett, Dirk, Barkley is how I rate the top PFs.
SF Pippen -- over Baylor and Barry though it's another very tough call; Baylor was so much more dominant but it was a Wilt lite kind of dominance it seems. Much easier to put Pippen over Havlicek whose great 70s days followed some very good but not great 60s seasons. Pettit was better than Baylor, even in the seasons they were both in their prime; he was better than Pippen too for similar reasons. Although Pettit’s efficiency looks only average, he did it with some of the highest foul draw numbers in NBA history and brutally relentless rebounding and high effort even on defense. He not only retired as the #1 scorer in NBA history, he is still the #3 all time in rebounds per game. Even accounting for era inflation, he was a terrific scorer, rebounder, and super classy guy – Lenny Wilkens credited him with being the main reason he was accepted as a black man on the last all white team in the league.
SG Wade -- over Drexler. Much as I want to put Sidney Moncrief in this category because his peak was close to those guys, it wasn't better and they have better career arcs (maybe even Wade).
PG Frazier -- over Payton and Stockton. It's WAY too early to be talking about Isiah, he's in the next level with Nash and Kidd. Frazier was at least as important to the Knicks' two championships as Isiah to the Pistons and he was a better scorer (similar volumes but much more efficient) and much better defender. Frazier v. Wade is a tough question. Wade was the greater scorer and had a great finals run; Frazier the better defender with two great finals runs. Both are good playmakers, great rebounders for guards and able to play in multiple systems. Wade may pass him with a couple more great seasons but right now I still have Frazier rated higher.
NOMINATE BOB PETTIT
Garnett is the greatest defensive forward of the next group and the greatest of the 21st century so far. He was also a very good offensive player with good scoring and passing skills. Very complete, very very good, but not as consistently outstanding as Karl Malone
Malone is my choice among the remaining bigs. He was the most consistently outstanding with his incredible consistency and ironman streak and his playoff performance has been gone over (and will be gone over again) many times in the last few threads.
Julius Erving was, at his ABA peak, even more spectacular and feared than Malone and a his equal defensively (less man, better help). He wasn’t quite up to the Mailman level as an NBA star partially due to role and partially due to age and league. It’s a tough choice between the Doctor and the Mailman; my heart says Doc, my head says Mailman.
Oscar Robertson and Jerry West are the last two serious candidates for this spot. I rate West over Oscar for his defense and playoff heroics; the Lakers were a consistent finalist for almost 10 years just running into the Russell Celtics each time. Karl Malone v. Jerry West is pretty tough. West equals Malone at scoring and defense but is missing the rebounding edge that Karl Malone gives you. However, despite 1972, the playoff heroics that gave him the nickname “Mr. Clutch” and a finals MVP for the losing team (how often has that happened?) make him my choice as #11 on the list.
I am, however, far from set in stone on any of these evaluations and am willing to change my mind so convince me . . . .
VOTE: JERRY WEST
C Artis Gilmore. Much more efficient and better defensively in his prime than Patrick Ewing though Ewing was no slouch. Ewing has more shooting range and is much more aggressive offensively while Artis let’s the offense come to him which is a problem; if Artis had had the aggression of an Alonzo Mourning, he’d be Shaq like, he was that big/strong/athletic in his day. Even after the knee surgery, he was still an incredibly efficient scorer, more efficient in the NBA – possibly because with the lesser mobility, he spent more time just camping out low and backing his man down rather than trying to move and cut from the midpost like in Kentucky. Artis has probably the two most efficient seasons of all time with Chicago, and on the big stage, in 1975 he carried a good Kentucky team to the ABA title as the clear best player and playoff MVP.
PF Pettit -- He was the greatest player in the NBA pre-Russell and was still top 5/6 right up until his retirement (I have him rated over Baylor during that period plus he was the best pre-Baylor). I'd rate him over Kevin Garnett too, quite possibly, and certainly over Barkley though Garnett is a much tougher call. Mailman, Pettit/Garnett, Dirk, Barkley is how I rate the top PFs.
SF Pippen -- over Baylor and Barry though it's another very tough call; Baylor was so much more dominant but it was a Wilt lite kind of dominance it seems. Much easier to put Pippen over Havlicek whose great 70s days followed some very good but not great 60s seasons. Pettit was better than Baylor, even in the seasons they were both in their prime; he was better than Pippen too for similar reasons. Although Pettit’s efficiency looks only average, he did it with some of the highest foul draw numbers in NBA history and brutally relentless rebounding and high effort even on defense. He not only retired as the #1 scorer in NBA history, he is still the #3 all time in rebounds per game. Even accounting for era inflation, he was a terrific scorer, rebounder, and super classy guy – Lenny Wilkens credited him with being the main reason he was accepted as a black man on the last all white team in the league.
SG Wade -- over Drexler. Much as I want to put Sidney Moncrief in this category because his peak was close to those guys, it wasn't better and they have better career arcs (maybe even Wade).
PG Frazier -- over Payton and Stockton. It's WAY too early to be talking about Isiah, he's in the next level with Nash and Kidd. Frazier was at least as important to the Knicks' two championships as Isiah to the Pistons and he was a better scorer (similar volumes but much more efficient) and much better defender. Frazier v. Wade is a tough question. Wade was the greater scorer and had a great finals run; Frazier the better defender with two great finals runs. Both are good playmakers, great rebounders for guards and able to play in multiple systems. Wade may pass him with a couple more great seasons but right now I still have Frazier rated higher.
NOMINATE BOB PETTIT
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
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- RealGM
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Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
Coming into this project, I originally had it:
11. Oscar
12. West
13. Moses
14. Dr. J
15. KG
16. Barkley
17. K. Malone
18. Nowitzki
19. LeBron
20. Robinson
But Wade has moved ahead of Robinson for me, and the arguments for Dr. J, Mailman, and KG were fantastic in the last thread. Based on my list, I would vote in Oscar, but I'd like to hear how he compares to KG, the Malones, and Dr. J.
11. Oscar
12. West
13. Moses
14. Dr. J
15. KG
16. Barkley
17. K. Malone
18. Nowitzki
19. LeBron
20. Robinson
But Wade has moved ahead of Robinson for me, and the arguments for Dr. J, Mailman, and KG were fantastic in the last thread. Based on my list, I would vote in Oscar, but I'd like to hear how he compares to KG, the Malones, and Dr. J.
Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
- Dr Positivity
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Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
I know this is going to come down to KG vs Karl so I'm going to give my arguments on that first
My explanation is pretty short. I'd rather have KG. Longevity included, I'd rather have KG. I don't trust in Karl's offensive advantage as much due to many reasons listed in the last thread, I think his pure isolation skills didn't match up to a lot of 27ppg+ players. Then KG has the defense, passing, and overall versatility.
This vote comes down to KG vs Jerry West for me. To choose between West and Erving and Moses, again I can't be too scientific than other to say I feel like West is the better offensive weapon due to his perimeter skill, range, playmaking, for the same reason I thought Kobe was the better weapon. I'm a big fan of pure skill.
KG vs West. It's tough, but I'll take KG - he has the greater all around game, has the greater health, and gets the benefit of the doubt for doing it in this era. Again, ask me to choose, I take KG
Vote Kevin Garnett
Nominate Dwyane Wade. I expect an easy win for him.
My explanation is pretty short. I'd rather have KG. Longevity included, I'd rather have KG. I don't trust in Karl's offensive advantage as much due to many reasons listed in the last thread, I think his pure isolation skills didn't match up to a lot of 27ppg+ players. Then KG has the defense, passing, and overall versatility.
This vote comes down to KG vs Jerry West for me. To choose between West and Erving and Moses, again I can't be too scientific than other to say I feel like West is the better offensive weapon due to his perimeter skill, range, playmaking, for the same reason I thought Kobe was the better weapon. I'm a big fan of pure skill.
KG vs West. It's tough, but I'll take KG - he has the greater all around game, has the greater health, and gets the benefit of the doubt for doing it in this era. Again, ask me to choose, I take KG
Vote Kevin Garnett
Nominate Dwyane Wade. I expect an easy win for him.
Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
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Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
Well, my evaluation of Oscar anyway:
One of the greatest offensive players of all time. Probably the 2nd best offensive PG after Magic, maybe even ahead of Nash. And by all accounts, he wasn't a bad defender either. And for all of West's heroics, Oscar put up comparable playoff numbers himself, he just seemed to be stuck with a mediocre Royals team for most of his career, a lot like KG in Minnesota.
I don't know by how much the pace impacted his numbers, but he lead the league in scoring one year at 29.2 ppg, and he lead the league in apg the same year, with 9.7 apg. Neither average would look out of place in the modern NBA. His efficiency is very good by modern standards, compared to his era, it's fantastic. He could score the ball, that much is obvious.
Another drawback though is his mpg...they inflate his numbers big time. Even so, his per 36 numbers are outstanding. He seemed to settle into a 25/9/7 guy per 36 minutes.
Oscar is probably a better offensive player than any of the other candidates that will be mentioned, while being a decent defensive player, and his play did not decline in the playoffs, statistically speaking.
One of the greatest offensive players of all time. Probably the 2nd best offensive PG after Magic, maybe even ahead of Nash. And by all accounts, he wasn't a bad defender either. And for all of West's heroics, Oscar put up comparable playoff numbers himself, he just seemed to be stuck with a mediocre Royals team for most of his career, a lot like KG in Minnesota.
I don't know by how much the pace impacted his numbers, but he lead the league in scoring one year at 29.2 ppg, and he lead the league in apg the same year, with 9.7 apg. Neither average would look out of place in the modern NBA. His efficiency is very good by modern standards, compared to his era, it's fantastic. He could score the ball, that much is obvious.
Another drawback though is his mpg...they inflate his numbers big time. Even so, his per 36 numbers are outstanding. He seemed to settle into a 25/9/7 guy per 36 minutes.
Oscar is probably a better offensive player than any of the other candidates that will be mentioned, while being a decent defensive player, and his play did not decline in the playoffs, statistically speaking.
Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
- Dr Positivity
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Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
I'm a big pusher of Oscar getting consideration this high, I just can't find a way to say he's not below West, very much in a Bird vs Magic way. West has that little more in defense and intangibles and gets the success benefit of the doubt
Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
- ronnymac2
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Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
Dr Mufasa wrote:I know this is going to come down to KG vs Karl so I'm going to give my arguments on that first
My explanation is pretty short. I'd rather have KG. Longevity included, I'd rather have KG. I don't trust in Karl's offensive advantage as much due to many reasons listed in the last thread, I think his pure isolation skills didn't match up to a lot of 27ppg+ players. Then KG has the defense, passing, and overall versatility.
This vote comes down to KG vs Jerry West for me. To choose between West and Erving and Moses, again I can't be too scientific than other to say I feel like West is the better offensive weapon due to his perimeter skill, range, playmaking, for the same reason I thought Kobe was the better weapon. I'm a big fan of pure skill.
KG vs West. It's tough, but I'll take KG - he has the greater all around game, has the greater health, and gets the benefit of the doubt for doing it in this era. Again, ask me to choose, I take KG
Vote Kevin Garnett
Nominate Dwyane Wade. I expect an easy win for him.
What about Malone skill-wise makes you turn him away? He was a hybrid face-up/low post threat who constantly got to the line- by way of making his own plays mind you, not being fed by Stockton like many assume- and was also excellent off-ball. He knew how to move without the ball and could spot up for jumpers. Off-ball, he was Amar'e with slightly less run/jump athletic ability and more brawn.
On-ball iso skills- again, he was a hybrid. Did he turn to the fadeaway too much? Sure. That's why he wasn't Shaq or Kareem offensively. But teams needed to send constant doubles and traps in the playoffs when Malone circa 92-97 got the ball on the block or the midpost. Couple that with being an excellent passer, and you've got yourself a bona-fide offensive Constant.
Pay no mind to the battles you've won
It'll take a lot more than rage and muscle
Open your heart and hands, my son
Or you'll never make it over the river
It'll take a lot more than rage and muscle
Open your heart and hands, my son
Or you'll never make it over the river
Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
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- Bench Warmer
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Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
V: Big-O
N: Pettit
N: Pettit
Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
- ronnymac2
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Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
Pistol Pete Vescey wrote:V: Big-O
N: Pettit
Just to let you know, your vote doesn't count because you aren't on the list. If you want in, you need to get through The Pen and The Baller. This scenario sounds dangerous, but they're peaceful.
Pay no mind to the battles you've won
It'll take a lot more than rage and muscle
Open your heart and hands, my son
Or you'll never make it over the river
It'll take a lot more than rage and muscle
Open your heart and hands, my son
Or you'll never make it over the river
Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
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Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
Dr Mufasa wrote:Nominate Dwyane Wade. I expect an easy win for him.
Hmm, makes me want to say some stuff. Not that I think Wade's a crazy choice here, but people should not keep passing up Bob Pettit lightly.
People should understand that except for his final year and another year where he finished 6th, Pettit finished in the top 4 for the MVP every year of his career. Understand, that means he was regularly in the top 4 through '63-64. Jerry West started in the NBA in '60-61, and in his first 9 years in the league, he finished in the top 4 only twice. Got that? For West's first 9 years, Pettit spent more time as a top 4 MVP guy than West, despite only being in the league for a fraction of that time. So basically, the Fab 5 of the 60s came along, and Pettit stuck right in the thick of them, and so it's hard for me to see him that much below Oscar & West (and Wilt for that matter).
Of course, I hadn't nominated him in earlier threads either, so I'm not exactly a blind homer for the guy. I do look at Barkley's insane offensive output, and I just don't think Pettit could match that. However, this is a guy whose shooting efficiency kept rising with the times up to about 53% TS at a time when West & Oscar weren't a ton better, and when Elgin Baylor was still around 49%. I do think Pettit was a guy with capability to keep learning, and I think he'd have been a force in any era. This was a smart, driven guy who always seemed to want it more than everyone else. You who can take over a game, this guy is for you.
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Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
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Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
Yeah, and after saying all that, I've talked myself into my nomination choice so...
Vote: Kevin Garnett
Nomination: Bob Pettit
Vote: Kevin Garnett
Nomination: Bob Pettit
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Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
I'll be voting for Karl Malone, just as I did last thread. But the nomination? Very much up in the air between Wade and Pettit, most likely.
Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
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Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
Vote: Malone, Karl
Nominate: Pettit, Bob
Nominate: Pettit, Bob
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Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
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Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
Definitely voting for Julius Erving. Jerry West would be next for me.
My tentative nomination is for John Havlicek, but I am very much uncertain about it. Dwyane Wade and Bob Pettit are among the many names that I also consider possibilities at this slot.
My tentative nomination is for John Havlicek, but I am very much uncertain about it. Dwyane Wade and Bob Pettit are among the many names that I also consider possibilities at this slot.
penbeast0 wrote:Yes, he did. And as a mod, I can't even put him on ignore . . . sigh.
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Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
penbeast0 wrote: a finals MVP for the losing team (how often has that happened?)
Once, and it happened the first time the Finals MVP was ever voted.
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Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
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Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
I voted Garnett last thread, and hence am leaning to voting that way again.
Certainly it's Garnett over Malone for me. A mobile, talkative defender clearly adds a great deal beyond the stat sheet, except for stats like +/- that measure team results. So I put a lot of credence in the team-result stats favoring Garnett over Malone. Garnett also has the amazing peak and the ring. And while both guys had their offensive-end playoff screwups, Malone's matter more has his value was more offensive.
Garnett also gets bonus marks for being a pathbreaking high school draftee.
Certainly it's Garnett over Malone for me. A mobile, talkative defender clearly adds a great deal beyond the stat sheet, except for stats like +/- that measure team results. So I put a lot of credence in the team-result stats favoring Garnett over Malone. Garnett also has the amazing peak and the ring. And while both guys had their offensive-end playoff screwups, Malone's matter more has his value was more offensive.
Garnett also gets bonus marks for being a pathbreaking high school draftee.
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Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
Fencer reregistered wrote:Garnett also gets bonus marks for being a pathbreaking high school draftee.
Moses Malone?
Vote: Karl Malone
Nomination: Bob Pettit
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Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
therealbig3 wrote:My thoughts on Kobe vs KG:
Kobe is a better offensive player imo. We all know about KG's ridiculous defensive impact, but sometimes, in the playoffs, you need your main guy to be a reliable go-to scorer, and to go for 40+. KG never did that, nor did he ever even go for 30+ in an elimination game. He's thrown up some stinkers in elimination games, in terms of scoring. Obviously, Kobe's not perfect, but more often than not, you can rely on him to give you 25-30 ppg. KG can explode for 30+ points in a game, but then he can go on a stretch of games where he's only giving you 18-22 ppg. Sometimes, that's not enough, and many times in KG's career, it wasn't. From 98-00, his offensive performance in the closeout games is pathetic, to be honest. In 01, against SA, he does play very well, holding off Duncan and Robinson, and he has a 19/15/5 closeout game...but in a 7 point loss, that's where only scoring 19 points is not enough. In 02, dominant series, but he gets lit up by Dirk, and the Mavs as a whole have no problem putting points up. In 03, dominant series against LA, but he saves his worst game of the series for last. In 04, closeout game against the Lakers, 6 point loss, KG goes for 22 points, fouls out, and commits 8 TOs. Again, saved his worst game for last.
I mean, I think Kobe is a guy who the least excuses are made for, in terms of his struggles in big games. Everyone picks him apart, but they turn a blind eye to the failures of the players they're trying to prop over him. Similar to what fatal9 said with regards to Kobe vs Malone, I think Kobe's best in the playoffs trumps KG's best in the playoffs. Did KG ever have a multiple year stretch in the playoffs that is superior to Kobe from 06-10?
(Continuing this from a post I never got to finish in the #10 thread, perfectly adaptable to this thread)
We spoke on this a bit during the thread you began about KG vs Robinson in the postseason, but at that time we focused more on comparing them than on KG's impact in general. We know that Garnett's TS% drops a bit in the postseason and that he isn't the volume scorer that some of these all-time players are. On the other hand, I contend that Garnett's postseason impact is as big or bigger than some of the top-10 players already voted in. Scoring is naturally the first thing that people consider, so it is incumbent on me to make the case that Garnett's results aren't a case of a player struggling a bit (TS% or PER) but still being great...it's that Garnett's postseason impact tends to be HUGE, and that the TS% really isn't that relevant when it comes to judging him. Know off the bat that as I make my case I'll be looking at team impact as best I can, including +/- info where it's available and team trends as well. I'm going to start with 1999 (first year KG was All NBA), going into more detail from 1999 - 2001 as it was before any +/- info is available. From 2002 on I'll probably use less description and rely on the trends I've already shown, the postseason +/- trends, and the known regular season APM info as well as I argue about impact. As always, it's up to the reader to determine if I make my case.
1999: Wolves played the Spurs in the playoffs. The Wolves were 25 - 25 with a -0.2 SRS, while the Spurs were 37 - 13 with a +7.1 SRS, 1st in league. The Spurs ended the season on a huge run, and ran through the playoffs on the way to the title, going 15 - 2. Garnett was matched up on Tim Duncan, and here are their averages against each other that series followed by Duncan's averages over the rest of the playoffs (against Lakers, Trailblazers and Knicks):
Garnett averaged: 21.8 points (44.3% FG, 4.3 FTM/game), 12 reb, 3.8 ast, 2.3 blk, 1.5 stl
Duncan averaged: 18.8 points (46% FG, 4.3 FTM/game), 10.8 reb, 3.3 ast, 3 blk, 0.8 stl
Duncan (non-Wolves): 24.6 points (52.5% FG, 6.9 FTM/game), 11.7 reb, 2.7 ast, 2.5 blk, 0.8 stl
Similarly, in the season the Spurs averaged 92.8 ppg on 45.6% FG
In the first round against the Wolves, the Spurs averaged 86.8 ppg on 44.3% FG
In the rest of the playoffs, the Spurs averaged 88.9 ppg on 45.3% FG
2000: Wolves played the Blazers in the playoffs. The Wolves were 50 - 32 with a +2.7 SRS, while the Blazers were 59 - 23 with a +6.4 SRS, 2nd in league. The Blazers were one of two legitimate title contenders that year, and were an epic 4th quarter choke in game 7 of the WCF away from the title. Garnett was matched up on Rasheed Wallace.
Garnett averaged 18.8 points (38.5% FG, 3.3 FTM/game), 10.8 reb, 8.8 ast, 0.8 blk, 1.3 stl
Here is what I wrote about that series in a previous thread: in that series KG had 2 triple-doubles in 4 games; was obviously drawing the defenses attention (I like NO-KG-AI's description on page 1: "that was about as much double and triple teaming as I've ever seen a team do") and distributing well (9 apg) which helped contribute to teammates shooting well; he defensively erased the best player on the opposing team in his 1-on-1 match-up (Sheed averaged 13.5 ppg in 42 min/game against Wolves in round 1, 22.3 pp42 against Jazz and Lakers in next 2 rounds), and was the anchor for a defense that held the Blazers to 3 pp 100 possessions fewer than the Jazz and Lakers were able to in the next 2 rounds (Blazers averaged 97.5 ppg, 47% FG reg season; 87.3 ppg, 43.6% against Wolves).
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1118778&start=45
2001: Wolves played Spurs again in the playoffs. Wolves were 47 - 35 (+1.8 SRS), Spurs were 58 - 24 (+7.9 SRS, 1st in league). Garnett was again matched up on Tim Duncan, and here are their averages against each other that series followed by Duncan's averages over the rest of the playoffs (Mavs and Lakers):
Garnett averaged: 21 points (46.6% FG, 7.5 FTM/game), 12 reb, 4.3 ast, 1.5 blk, 1 stl
Duncan averaged: 22.5 points (46% FG, 5.5 FTM/game), 13 reb, 3.5 ast, 2 blk, 1 stl
Duncan (non-Wolves): 25.2 points (49.7% FG, 6 FTM/game), 15.1 reb, 3.9 ast, 3 blk, 1.1 stl
Similarly, in the season the Spurs averaged 96.2 ppg on 46.1% FG
In the first round against the Wolves, the Spurs averaged 88.5 ppg on 42.9% FG
In the rest of the playoffs, the Spurs averaged 92.9 ppg on 44.3% FG
Quick summary: Already TL;DR, but some key points.
From 1999 - 2001, KG averaged 20.5 points (42.8% FG, 49.9% TS), 11.6 reb, 5.6 apg, 23.2 PER in the postseason and the Wolves lost all 3 series. Now, you can stop there and say that Garnett had some shooting trouble but still posted overall good numbers but his team couldn't get out of the first round. Or, you can note that:
1) In 3 straight years the Wolves faced either the best or 2nd best team in the NBA in the first round
2) In those 3 years, KG faced off against 3 straight all-world power forwards (including twice against the consensus best PF of all time), who also are very arguably the 2 best defensive PFs (outside of KG) of their generation.
3) Over those 3 series, Garnett held Duncan and Sheed to about 76% of what they scored against their other postseason opponents. In other words, he cut their scoring by about 1/4. This is huge, against superstar opponents.
4) Over those 3 series, the Spurs and Blazers both experienced consistent and sizable scoring drops against the Wolves (average 8 fewer ppg, 2.6% lower FG% against the Wolves compared to regular season), and in all 3 instances the Spurs and Blazers then improved both their ppg and their FG% against their remaining postseason opponents outside of the Wolves.
5) Over those 3 series, Garnett either scored or assisted on more than 38% of the Wolves' points.
Even those sympathetic to Garnett tend to compare him to other greats by saying things like, "Garnett had good numbers and was obviously a defensive anchor, but player X was just a better scorer and ...". To me, that misses the point. Garnett's impact on the court was massive, well beyond just a dominant scoring presence, because he was having massive effects on the game with his defense, rebounding and playmaking. It's not just a "start with scoring, give a few bonus points for defense and passing" kind of thing. It's more like a list of several ways in which a player can impact a game, scoring being one of them, and KG making big marks in all of the categories (including scoring) for a combination that can't be touched by any other individual of his generation. His team might not have won, but KG's individual impact in the postseason was massive. How massive? Well, let's try to quantify it a bit more specifically for the future years but in a cliff notes format, using available +/- info.
2002 - 2004:
Garnett averaged 24.9 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 5.1 apg, 2.1 bpg, 1.4 spg, 25.2 PER over 27 games.
In those years the Wolves faced the Shaq/Kobe Lakers twice, the 57-win Mavericks, the 55-win Kings, and the early Carmelo Nuggets in the postseason. I'll point out that, unlike in the examples above, Dirk Nowitzki and the Mavs posted excellent offensive numbers against the 2002 Wolves. I've said before that to my view the Mavs as a team just overwhelmed the Wolves' inferior perimeter defensive players and KG was spread too thin trying to help, but there are many that believe that Dirk just outplayed him. I won't even argue that here, it's not germane to the point. Suppose, for this post, I stipulate that one series to be the exception to KG's general rule of postseason match-ups, so that I can stay with the overall point.
One has to take postseason +/- results with large grains of salt because of the sample size issue. When looking at an individual season, I don't even pay much attention to results for any less than 2 rounds, and even for long playoff runs I note the +/- results more as a data point to be vetted and compared with the other information we have at hand. That said, when the same thing keeps happening again and again year after year, and it is totally consistent with the other data we have, I think that we start having something worth talking about.
So, I want you to keep in mind all of the non-box-score/non-scoring impacts that I pointed out in more detail for the 1999 - 2001 playoff runs when you read that from 2002 - 2004, KG's postseason on/off +/- was +21.4 in 1173 minutes on court and 125 minutes off. Still not rigorous by any means, still not enough minutes (especially off-court) for comfort, but a definite trend is taking shape. A +21.4 net on/off would be huge, but to put it in perspective based on current players that have already been voted into the top-10 in this project:
*Shaq topped that mark in the 2004 playoffs (+28.4), and presumably did it previously as well though I haven't run his numbers for 2002 or 2003. He hasn't touched it in the years since.
*Duncan topped that mark in his legendary 2003 postseason run (+23.4), but he's never really approached it since (I don't have his 2002 calculated) and never had a 3-year run anywhere near that.
*Kobe has never come close to that mark in any postseason from 2003 on (I don't have his 2002 calculated).
Again, not conclusive. Small sample size. Just a data point, with comparisons for perspective, which is consistent with the more in-depth analysis I did from the three previous playoff performances. Something to chew on when you look at the other data that you usually use for analysis.
2008:
Garnett averaged 20.4 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 3.3 apg, 1.1 bpg, 1.3 spg, 23.0 PER over 26 games.
In that championship run the Celtics faced the Kobe/Pau Lakers that had been scorching since the Gasol trade, the 59-win Pistons, a LeBron-led Cavs team and the Hawks. Getting straight to the point, a journey over to basketballvalue.com tells us that in the 2008 postseason http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers. ... C&team=BOS :
*Garnett had an on/off +/- of +19.9 in 987 minutes on court, 261 minutes off court, and the team was -10 per 48 min in the time Garnett was off the court.
*Pierce (+8.0) and Allen (+8.3) had much lower marks, and more interestingly, when either Pierce or Allen were off the court the Celtics still broke even. Compared to how when Garnett was off the court, the Celtics went through the floor (-10/48 off court).
Conclusions: NOW, I think this is a trend worth putting some weight into. KG's +/- results in the Celtics' championship run looked exactly like they had in his last three postseasons in Minnesota. In fact, if you put 2008 with KG's 3 previous playoff runs, you see him posting an on/off +/- of up near 20 over a 6 year period that encompasses 4 playoffs, 53 games, more than 2000 minutes on-court and almost 400 minutes off-court, and two entirely different teams. Some other things to keep in mind:
*KG's postseason on/off +/- from 2002 - 2008 crushes any of the other players of his generation over that time period. Duncan was at +7.4 (03 - 08; 4135 min on, 980 min off), Kobe was +5.4 (03 - 08, 2885 min on, 348 min off), and Dirk was +3.1 (03 - 08; 2913 min on, 425 min off). The only player that we've mentioned that was close was LeBron, who was +17.5 (06 - 08; 2046 min on, 178 min off)
*This is very consistent with the regular season results that we have. From 2004 - 2009 Ilardi's APM calculation already indicated that KG dwarfed the rest of the NBA over that 6 years.
*Again, we can see on the court how this could be. KG was carrying huge loads for his teams in multiple areas, and was doing a lot of things at an extremely high level. People say "great defense" or "great all around" player, but I don't think many really internalize that when it comes to Garnett. He was impacting the game in such a huge way even in addition to his strong scoring.
*For those keeping track at home, I started this long post for the 1999 postseason and finished it with the 2008. So that's a solid decade of top-5 caliber play from Garnett, including large swatches of MVP-caliber production with a historic peak. Just a point to indicate that Garnett's longevity and quality stacks up well to anyone at this point.
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Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
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Re: Real GM Top 100 List #11
Fencer reregistered wrote:Garnett also gets bonus marks for being a pathbreaking high school draftee.
I hope you're kidding about this. Giving a player bonus points for something so arbitrary leads down a dangerous path for future threads. I may as well vote for Jerry West because he is The Logo.
Pay no mind to the battles you've won
It'll take a lot more than rage and muscle
Open your heart and hands, my son
Or you'll never make it over the river
It'll take a lot more than rage and muscle
Open your heart and hands, my son
Or you'll never make it over the river