RealGM Top 100 List #14

Post #1 » by **penbeast0** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:38 am

Baller asked if I could make the thread, so here it is.

RULES:
There will be a zero tolerance, one strike policy. If ANY poster is interrupting any of the threads in a negative way, OR causing any problems they're ability to vote will be taken away.

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days

Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:

Dwyane Wade

NBA Champion (2006)
7x NBA All-Star
2x All-NBA First Team
3 All-NBA Second Team
1x All-NBA Third Team
3x All-NBA Defensive Second Team
2010 All-Star Game MVP
2006 NBA Finals MVP

Bob Pettit

NBA Champion (1958)
2× NBA MVP (1956, 1959)
4× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1956, 1958–1959, 1962)
11× NBA All-Star (1955–1965)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1955)
10× All-NBA First Team (1955–1964)
All-NBA Second Team (1965)
2× NBA Scoring Champion (1957, 1959)
NBA 25th Anniversary Team
NBA 35th Anniversary Team
NBA 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

David Robinson

2× NBA Champion (1999,2003)
NBA MVP (1995)
4x All-NBA 1st Team
2x All-NBA 2nd Team
4x All-NBA 3rd Team
4x All-NBA 1st Team
NBA DPOY (1992)
4x NBA All-Defense 1st Team
4x NBA All-Defense 2nd Team
NBA ROY (1990)
10x All-Star

Dirk Nowitzki

# NBA MVP (2007)
# NBA Champion (2011)
# NBA Finals MVP (2011)
# 4x All-NBA 1st Team
# 5x All-NBA 2nd Team
# 2x All-NBA 3rd Team
# 10x NBA All-Star

Charles Barkley

# NBA MVP (1991)
# 5x 1st Team All-NBA
# 5x 2nd Team All-NBA
# 1x 3rd Team All-NBA
# 11 times All-Star
# All-Star MVP 1991
# Hall of Fame 2006

LeBron James

# 2x NBA MVP (2009-2010)
# 5x All-NBA First Team Selection (2006-2011)
# 2x All-NBA Second Team Selection (2005-2006)
# 3x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (2009-2011)
# Rookie of the Year (2004)
# 7x All-Star
# 2xNBA All-Star Game MVP (2006, 2008)

Oscar Robertson

* NBA Champion (1971)
* NBA MVP (1964)
* NBA Rookie of the Year (1961)
* 3x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1961, 1964, 1969)
* 9× All-NBA First Team Selection (1961-1969)
* 2× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1970-1971)
* 12× All-Star (1961-1972)
* Voted to the HOF in 1980
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Jerry West

* NBA Champion (1972)
* NBA Finals MVP (1969)
* 14× All-Star (1961-1974)
* NBA All-Star Game MVP (1972)
* 10× All-NBA First Team Selection (1962-1967, 1970-1973)
* 2× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1968-1969)
* 4X NBA All-Defense Team Selection (1970-1973)
* 1X NBA All-Defense Team Selection (1969)
* Voted to the Hall of Fame in 1980
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Moses Malone

* 1x NBA Champion 1983 Philadelphia 76ers (NBA)
* 3x MVP (1979, 1982, 1983)
* 12x NBA All-Star (1978-1989), 1x ABA All-Star (1975)
* 4x All-NBA First Team Selection (1979, 1982, 1983, 1985)
* 4x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1980, 1981, 1984, 1987)
* 1x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1983)
* 1x NBA All-Defensive 2nd Team Selection (1979)
* 1x NBA Finals MVP (1983)
* All Rookie Team (ABA 1975)
* Basketball HOF Player (2001)

Post #2 » by **penbeast0** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:41 am

Doctor MJ left a list

His vote is Oscar Robertson

His nomination is Walt Frazier

therealbig3 · Post #3 » by **therealbig3** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:54 am

My nomination comes down to Pippen or Baylor for me. I'm sure both of them will be discussed, so I'll wait and see what people have to say about them.

As for my vote,

Vote: Oscar Robertson

EDIT: Ignore this, my official vote and nomination is a couple of posts down.

Dr Positivity · Post #4 » by **Dr Positivity** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:56 am

Vote Jerry West. Him and KG were in a dead heat for the last spot for me. IMO West has been the best offensive player on the board since Kobe got voted in and is a pretty damn great defender. Mr. Clutch etc.

Nominate Rick Barry

I voted Ewing last time but since I was the only one I'll go with my pick of the players who got support. Good support was made for Barry last time, he's an elite offensive player who reached the top of the mountain and was robbed of an MVP cause he's a dick.

Post #5 » by **penbeast0** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:56 am

As for me, I have narrowed down my vote to Moses Malone or Jerry West. The point about West's injuries made last time is a good one, he had a style similar to a combination of Dwyane Wade/Kevin Martin and like both of today's slashers he got dinged up a lot. Still, I think you have to give some of the credit (for the great offense) and blame (for the weak defense) to the best player on the team and I still have West by a hair over Oscar. Relative to Moses, West was much more consistently a great scorer, Moses was only dominant for a relatively short stretch though he remained a rebounding force throughout his career. Subtract for Moses's weak passing and shotblocking, add credit for his longevity and work ethic (center on my all sweat team) . . . tough call and I'd change to Moses or even Oscar over the other candidates if it comes to a tie but I vote Jerry West here

As for the nomination, I still favor Artis Gilmore over Patrick Ewing by a little though Dwight Howard is intriguing and I'd like to see comparisom between the three of them by someone else. At forward, I have Baylor and Pippen easily over Barry (same efficiency and scoring as Baylor but crappy attitude and much weaker rebounding) or Havlicek (even for his day, much weaker efficiency and passing than Pippen with similar defense though Hondo's leadership and team ethic blows Pippen's away).

But my nomination goes to the best guard left which is Walt Frazier -- For his 8 year peak, he's a 20 point scorer with great efficiency, a good distributor though not in the Nash/Kidd class, was the real finals MVP on at least one and possibly both championship teams although the league gave it to Willis Reed. Check out the numbers if you didn't watch it, if you did remember Clyde's clutch offense and outstanding defense on Jerry West but Reed was the image the NBA wanted to present not the Superfly street image Clyde was known for. Nash can't compare defensively and his greater playmaking is countered by Frazier's greater scoring and performance on the game's highest stage and Isiah, while he can match the championships, can't match the scoring efficiency or defensive dominance.

VOTE: JERRY WEST

NOMINATE: WALT FRAZIER

therealbig3 · Post #6 » by **therealbig3** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:58 am

Never mind what I posted before, this is my official vote and nomination, I forgot that Barry wasn't officially nominated in, since there was a tie.

Vote: Oscar Robertson
Nomination: Rick Barry

ronnymac2 · Post #7 » by **ronnymac2** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:59 am

Vote: Jerry West

Nominate: Rick Barry

Same reasons as last time...

mysticbb · Post #8 » by **mysticbb** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:02 am

Vote: Jerry West

Nomination: Elgin Baylor

ronnymac2 · Post #9 » by **ronnymac2** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:02 am

Penbeast- Why are you ignoring Rick Barry's passing/playmaking advantage over Baylor? What about the spacing he offers or the off-ball play? What about Barry's ability to relieve pressure on his team's primary ball handler by handling the ball in a creative way? Baylor's ball-handling was mainly used for attacking moves to the basket; Barry was more versatile in that aspect of the game.

drza · Post #10 » by **drza** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:08 am

Vote: Oscar Robertson
Nominate: Scottie Pippen

Hope we get a full-out Oscar vs West battle in this thread, as it's a classic. After the RPoY project last year, despite West getting love from more posters, I found myself more secure that Oscar was the more impactful player of the two.

Post #11 » by **penbeast0** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:11 am

Because Baylor was a very good passer too averaging over 4 assists/game for his career. Barry was better but (a) the rebounding differential to me was much greater than the playmaking one and (b) Barry is such an absolute egotistical prick.

I am probably harsher on that than many having dealt with too many of them as a player, teacher, and coach. Though at the level I have played, they aren't nearly as bad as the lazy defenders -- which Barry was also bad about -- one reason I would vote Havlicek over him too. I just found that the Baylor comp was much more apples to apples (like Pippen v. Havlicek) and to me Baylor was clearly better.

Gongxi · Post #12 » by **Gongxi** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:07 am

Well, last time I did the Oscar/Moses/KG/West dance, so I guess this time I'll be weighing West/Oscar/Moses. Have to do that later. Pretty sure my nomination will remain Baylor, though.

Fencer reregistered · Post #13 » by **Fencer reregistered** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:58 am

Who was nominated last time around? I'm guessing it's Havlicek, but I'm not seeing him listed at the start of the thread.

lorak · Post #14 » by **lorak** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:56 am

Dr Mufasa wrote:Vote Jerry West. Him and KG were in a dead heat for the last spot for me. IMO West has been the best offensive player on the board since Kobe got voted in and is a pretty damn great defender. Mr. Clutch etc.

No, he isn't nowhere near great defender and Oscar was easily better offensive player: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1126742
In short: Robertson's impact was Magic like. West's a little bit below these kind of players.

I would really like if people who vote for West would back up their opinions by some data.

vote: Robertson
nomination: Barry

ElGee · Post #15 » by **ElGee** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:01 am

Vote: LeBron James
Nominate: Steve Nash

I'm not entirely sure on this -- trying to expand my criteria and fluidity of my list as I get more comfortable with the project. That said, I could go Oscar or LeBron. I have LBJ 12th, but I don't really put too much stock into comparing current players with guys who have finished their careers. Give me 5 years and I'll feel really good about where LeBron sits. So for now, he gets the vote...and if I don't get back to this thread and it's a footrace between Oscar and someone, I'd switch my vote to Oscar.

therealbig3 · Post #16 » by **therealbig3** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:39 am

ElGee wrote:Vote: LeBron James
Nominate: Steve Nash

I'm not entirely sure on this -- trying to expand my criteria and fluidity of my list as I get more comfortable with the project. That said, I could go Oscar or LeBron. I have LBJ 12th, but I don't really put too much stock into comparing current players with guys who have finished their careers. Give me 5 years and I'll feel really good about where LeBron sits. So for now, he gets the vote...and if I don't get back to this thread and it's a footrace between Oscar and someone, I'd switch my vote to Oscar.

It's hard for me to rank LeBron this high, because although I think he's playing at top 5 GOAT level right now, his career has only been 8 seasons long, and he's only been an elite player for 7 seasons. With that said, I have him top 20, but only at 19. His peak is GOAT-level, but is it that ridiculously high that in only 7 years, he ranks ahead of guys like Barkley and Dirk? They peaked pretty high themselves, and have 10+ years of quality play.

mysticbb · Post #17 » by **mysticbb** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:57 am

DavidStern wrote:No, he isn't nowhere near great defender and Oscar was easily better offensive player: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1126742
In short: Robertson's impact was Magic like. West's a little bit below these kind of players.

There is actually also data for the 1969-70 season, in which the Royals were -7.77 without Robertson and -2.04 with him. That makes +5.7. And a team being bad is easy to be lifted by a couple of poins than a good team. Yes, that team was bad, but Robertson didn't make them contenders.

And when we look at his performance level, we have to see that he isn't quite as good. His numbers are inflated by pace and minutes played. I said that before, if Robertson had 9 to 10 elite seasons, Nowitzki has 11.
Btw, same for Moses Malone. When we look through the 1st 13 seasons of him, we are getting worse numbers as for Nowitzki's first 13 seasons. We have 8 All-NBA seasons for Moses Malone during those seasons, we have 11 for Nowitzki.
Nowitzki should be AHEAD of Moses Malone and Oscar Robertson.

lorak · Post #18 » by **lorak** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:08 pm

mysticbb wrote:
DavidStern wrote:No, he isn't nowhere near great defender and Oscar was easily better offensive player: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1126742
In short: Robertson's impact was Magic like. West's a little bit below these kind of players.

There is actually also data for the 1969-70 season, in which the Royals were -7.77 without Robertson and -2.04 with him. That makes +5.7. And a team being bad is easy to be lifted by a couple of poins than a good team. Yes, that team was bad, but Robertson didn't make them contenders.

That's Bob Cousy's Royals, so...
(BTW, which games exactly Robertson missed that year?)

And +5.7 in this environment is still good. West had similar numbers in couple of seasons.

And when we look at his performance level, we have to see that he isn't quite as good. His numbers are inflated by pace and minutes played.

So West numbers are also inflated.

Nowitzki should be AHEAD of Moses Malone and Oscar Robertson.

Maybe, but you voted for West. Why?
Robertson was clearly better offensive player (b-r blog posts) and on defensive end (and keep in mind that defense in case of small players is less important) there isn't much difference between them (according to objective data). And of course there is that huge issue with West's injures.

JordansBulls · Post #19 » by **JordansBulls** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:10 pm

Vote: Moses Malone
Nominate: Clyde Drexler

mysticbb · Post #20 » by **mysticbb** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:22 pm

DavidStern wrote:(BTW, which games exactly Robertson missed that year?)

Code: Select all

RK Date                Opp                       SRS
 4  Wed, Oct 22, 1969   Los Angeles Lakers     L   1.76 109  116
 57 Sat, Jan 31, 1970   Detroit Pistons        W  -2.94 117  115
 58 Sun, Feb 1, 1970  @ Chicago Bulls          L  -1.71 108  115
 59 Tue, Feb 3, 1970  N Los Angeles Lakers     L   1.76 114  124
 60 Wed, Feb 4, 1970    Seattle SuperSonics    L  -2.43 115  121
 61 Fri, Feb 6, 1970    New York Knicks        L   8.42  92  135
 62 Sat, Feb 7, 1970  @ New York Knicks        L   8.42 114  121
 63 Sun, Feb 8, 1970  @ Boston Celtics         L   -1.6 117  130
 64 Tue, Feb 10, 1970 @ Detroit Pistons        W  -2.94 117  115
 65 Wed, Feb 11, 1970 N Detroit Pistons        W  -2.94 124  113
 66 Fri, Feb 13, 1970 @ San Francisco Warriors W  -4.15 128  110
 67 Sun, Feb 15, 1970 @ San Diego Rockets      L  -2.95 123  150
 68 Wed, Feb 18, 1970 N Atlanta Hawks          L   0.31 125  139

That game against Atlanta was an OT game. No idea how they managed to lose by 14.

DavidStern wrote:And +5.7 in this environment is still good. West had similar numbers in couple of seasons.

I didn't say it is bad, but West improved a better team by that margin, Robertson a weaker team.

DavidStern wrote:So West numbers are also inflated.

Raw boxscore numbers? Indeed, but West beats Robertson in advanced stats.

DavidStern wrote:Robertson was clearly better offensive player (b-r blog posts) and on defensive end (and keep in mind that defense in case of small players is less important) there isn't much difference between them (according to objective data). And of course there is that huge issue with West's injures.

As I said, West played on a better team, had similar impact numbers and better advanced boxscore stats. No idea, but that sounds rather obvious to me to select West here.