RealGM Top 100 List #17

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RealGM Top 100 List #17 

Post#1 » by penbeast0 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:18 am

RULES:
There will be a zero tolerance, one strike policy. If ANY poster is interrupting any of the threads in a negative way, OR causing any problems they're ability to vote will be taken away.

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days

Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:

Patrick Ewing
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* 1x All-NBA First Team Selection
* 6x All-NBA Second Team Selection
* 2x NBA All-Defensive 2nd Team Selection
* Rookie of the Year (1986)
* Basketball HOF Player (2008)

Elgin Baylor
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* 10× All-NBA First Team Selection
* 11× All-Star
* NBA All-Star Game MVP (1959)
* Rookie of the Year (1959)
* Voted to the Hall of Fame in 1977
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team


Rick Barry
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* NBA Champion (1975)
* NBA Finals MVP (1975)
* 5× All-NBA First Team Selection
* 1× All-NBA Second Team Selection
* 4× All-ABA 1st Team Selection
* Rookie of the Year (1966)
* NBA All-Star Game MVP (1967)
* 12× All-Star (8 NBA, 4 ABA)
* Voted to the HOF in 1987

Walt Frazier
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* NBA Champion (1970, 1973)
* 4× All-NBA First Team Selection
* 2× All-NBA Second Team Selection
* 7x 1st Team All-Defense
* NBA All-Star Game MVP (1975)
* 7× All-Star
* Voted to the HOF in 1987

Dwyane Wade
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NBA Champion (2006)
7x NBA All-Star
2x All-NBA First Team
3 All-NBA Second Team
1x All-NBA Third Team
3x All-NBA Defensive Second Team
2010 All-Star Game MVP
2006 NBA Finals MVP

Bob Pettit
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NBA Champion (1958)
2× NBA MVP (1956, 1959)
4× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1956, 1958–1959, 1962)
11× NBA All-Star (1955–1965)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1955)
10× All-NBA First Team (1955–1964)
All-NBA Second Team (1965)
2× NBA Scoring Champion (1957, 1959)
NBA 25th Anniversary Team
NBA 35th Anniversary Team
NBA 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

David Robinson
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2× NBA Champion (1999,2003)
NBA MVP (1995)
4x All-NBA 1st Team
2x All-NBA 2nd Team
4x All-NBA 3rd Team
4x All-NBA 1st Team
NBA DPOY (1992)
4x NBA All-Defense 1st Team
4x NBA All-Defense 2nd Team
NBA ROY (1990)
10x All-Star

Dirk Nowitzki
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# NBA MVP (2007)
# NBA Champion (2011)
# NBA Finals MVP (2011)
# 4x All-NBA 1st Team
# 5x All-NBA 2nd Team
# 2x All-NBA 3rd Team
# 10x NBA All-Star

Charles Barkley
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# NBA MVP (1991)
# 5x 1st Team All-NBA
# 5x 2nd Team All-NBA
# 1x 3rd Team All-NBA
# 11 times All-Star
# All-Star MVP 1991
# Hall of Fame 2006

LeBron James
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# 2x NBA MVP (2009-2010)
# 5x All-NBA First Team Selection (2006-2011)
# 2x All-NBA Second Team Selection (2005-2006)
# 3x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (2009-2011)
# Rookie of the Year (2004)
# 7x All-Star
# 2xNBA All-Star Game MVP (2006, 2008)
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #17 

Post#2 » by penbeast0 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:19 am

From a list, Doctor MJ sent:

VOTE: LeBron James

NOMINATE: Steve Nash
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #17 

Post#3 » by penbeast0 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:22 am

From a list, FJS sent:

VOTE: LeBron James

Nominate: John Stockton
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #17 

Post#4 » by Snakebites » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:28 am

Hate to do this:

Vote: Lebron

Nominate: I'll wait for the arguments
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #17 

Post#5 » by therealbig3 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:33 am

I'd like to hear a Barkley vs LeBron vs Dirk debate, because they're the next three guys on my list, and are at a virtual tie.

I think LeBron and Barkley are the two best offensive players of that group, while LeBron is the best defensive player...LeBron might actually be THE best offensive player of this group, due to his elite playmaking ability.

But even though LeBron to me is the best overall player, his peak is not THAT much better than Barkley's or Dirk's to me, that it makes up for the extra 4 years of elite production that you're getting from Dirk and Barkley. Barkley also has 3-4 seasons in which he's not elite, but he's very good...Dirk and LeBron only have 1 of those seasons.

As for Dirk vs Barkley, my take on it is that Barkley was clearly the better regular season player, while they were about even in the playoffs. Dirk does get some points for being an infinitely better teammate and not as much of a headache for management, but Barkley just seems to be the better player to me, while having superior longevity up to this point.

Not officially voting yet, but that's my preliminary take on it.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #17 

Post#6 » by penbeast0 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:43 am

My vote will probably stay with LeBron. Despite his having played only 8 seasons, they were outstanding seasons and he's been arguably the best player in basketball for almost 5 of them. He had playoff failures the past two years but on the other hand, he carried that Cleveland team through some playoff stretches nearly singlehandedly (always kicking the Wizards butts unfortunately).

Dirk has played longer and surpassed LeBron with his finals heroics last year but that's only one year (and really only one series since LeBron is POY if he wins that series most likely). Barkley had defense and sloppy play issues on the court and drinking and divisive locker room stuff off the court; Pettit and Robinson also slipped in the playoffs badly though Pettit redeemed himself with the one magic game 7 somewhat. But overall, LeBron is the best player left.

As for the nomination, at center I still favor Artis Gilmore. Artis was a dominant player in the ABA, 1A/1B with Julius Erving as best player, and still an outstanding one once he came to the NBA particularly in terms of scoring efficiency -- counting only his NBA years he is the all time most efficient scorer in league history on decent volume and with good defense and rebounding as well. (2nd most efficient with a stretch of great defense and a Finals MVP when you include the ABA).

Dwight Howard hasn't done enough yet to pass him, Zo had health issues and was always a step behind the best like Shaq/Robinson/Duncan/etc. Willis Reed and Wes Unseld weren't as individually dominant and broke down faster too, while Neil Johnston and Mel Daniels played against inferior competition during their primes and were more limited besides.


Pippen v. Havlicek is the main forward matchup. I was leaning to Pippen until I started writing a post comparing them.

Scoring: For their careers Havlicek scored more (20.8 to 16.1 or, using per 36 which is more accurate, 20.4 to 16.6). However, Havlicek played in a faster paced system and although TrueLAFan has posted pretty convincing data in the Statistical Analysis board to indicate that stars tend to get their points regardless of pace, that implies that the 2-12 guys on the roster don't. So, not having cumulative pace, I will take a median pace for each career as a rough estimate. Boston games in 1970 averaged 115.9pts (and the Russell years were known for the Celtics high pace as Russell's outlet passing pushed the fast break); Chicago games in 1995 averaged 106.9pts. Adjusting Chicago's pace up to Boston's still gives Pippen only 17.5ppg so Havlicek still scores more.

Efficiency: Looking at true shooting percentages, Pippen averages .536 for his career while Havlicek is only at .492. However, in Havlicek's era the efficiency numbers were lower without the 3 point line and other rule changes opening up the offenses. The NBA in 1995 had an efg of .500 and Pippen's career ftm is 2.7/36 as he shoots less FT at a lower percentage than Havlicek. The NBA in 1970 had an average efg of .460 and Hondo's career ftm is 4.2/36, over 1.5XPippen's. This is calculated into ts% but listed because B-R.com only shows leaguewide efg -- again, these are just rough comps to see if the two players are in the same ballpark or significantly apart. So, adjusting the ts% for era bias, Havlicek's ts% for comparisom sake adjusts up to .535 or almost equal to Pippen's. (I admit to being surprised!)

Defense: Both were considered outstanding defenders. Pippen was on the all defense team 8x1st, 2x2nd, Havlicek 5x1st, 3x2nd (they didn't have the All-Def team for the early part of his career).

Rebounding: Pippen is at 6.6 reb/36 for his career, Havlicek at 6.2 reb/36 -- and this while Havlicek played in a higher paced lower efficiency era with more rebounds available. Clear edge Pippen

Playmaking: Pippen is at 5.2 ast/36 for his career, Havlicek at 4.8. While Pippen is more famous for being a distributor and played in the slower paced era, assists were appreciably less frequent in the 60s before the rules were changed and Havlicek played off the ball more. If anything, the edge goes to Havlicek here (again, surprising me).

I had thought that Pippen scored less but rebounded and assisted more with greater efficiency -- it seems closer than that with Havlicek roughly even on efficiency and playmaking. So, it comes down to Havlicek's greater scoring v. Pippen's rebounding. To my surprise, instead of creating an argument for Pippen, I think Havlicek's career is actually the more impressive looking back statistically.


Clyde Drexler is the greatest SG left, Gary Payton the greatest PG (GOAT defense, very good scoring and playmaking, mentally tough guy). Not sure who I would take between the two, probably Payton for the defense.

Between Gilmore, Havlicek, and Payton. I would take Gilmore if I were starting a franchise. Until recent rule changes, there were few players with the impact of a great 2-way center; even Havlicek's peak years he was behind teammate Dave Cowens in MVP voting. I could see voting for Havlicek (or even Pippen) and will switch my vote if it is between one of them and a player I rank lower but for now:

VOTE: LeBron James

NOMINATE: Artis Gilmore
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #17 

Post#7 » by Dr Positivity » Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:01 am

This vote is between Lebron, Barkley and Dirk for me.

I'll do Dirk vs Barkley first because they're both PFs. Barkley is the more spectacular player, has a higher efficiency, volume, Orebs. But Dirk is just as unique a guard and opens up the game for teammates on the pnr. And his ORTG results are actually better. Peaked higher in ORTG with Nash, Jamison, Finley than Barkley did with the Suns, then went to a slowdown defensive style team under Avery and still brought them to top 5. Dirk's teams ranked top 5 in ORTG from 01 to 09. If Barkley is better offensively, it can't be by much. Not enough to outweigh Dirk's work ethic and fundamentals attitude that made the Mavs culture what it is and his greater health. Dirk has had the greater success and meant more to his teams than Barkley. Like K Malone vs Barkley, I give the benefit of the doubt to the guy who left nothing on the table. Dirk over Barkley for me

Dirk vs Lebron. Lebron is the more spectacular regular season player and has his highs in the playoffs like 06, 07, 08, 09. He has his lows but so does Dirk in 07. Is my preference for Dirk in the playoffs based on him coming through later rather than earlier and not more? Maybe. But the reason for Dirk's redemption is his extra years on Lebron. So hard not to give him credit there in any case. I don't want to put too much into a few years gap in longevity but Dirk certainly has an edge there if nothing else. At the very least, I trust older Dirk more than any Lebron in the playoffs, now. I thought Dirk was awesome in 08-10 too in the playoffs. But really, the 2011 Finals - It's the only argument I need, Sean. I simply cannot vote for Lebron over Dirk after Nowitzki took an experience and grit and determination beats raw talent, fool dump on Lebron.

Vote Dirk Nowitzki

Nomination - I think this is a good spot for Havlicek with guys like Pippen and Nash as the biggest vote getters last time. Hondo got overrated on the last list and on Bill Simmons' list so I think a lot of us got leery, but now he's getting underrated. I think he's more of an impact offensive player than Pippen because he can go off more scoring wise, especially in the playoffs. He dropped 23ppg in the 66 Finals, 27ppg in the 68 Finals, 28ppg in the 69 Finals, 26ppg in the 74 Finals. That's legitimate production. I think he has a better record than Pippen and Stockton as kind of the man, so I'll give it to him

Nominate John Havlicek
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #17 

Post#8 » by Dr Positivity » Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:23 am

I found this and liked it:

April 10th, 1978

John Havlicek: It's The End Of A Long, Long Run

Through 16 seasons and more games—1,441—than anyone else has played, John Havlicek has gone full tilt for the Celtics. This weekend, at age 38, his farewell tour ended, he comes to a stop in Boston Garden

The images linger, freeze-frames from a grainy newsreel. There are the crew cut and the big ears and the goofy half-moon smile in the team picture. There are the amazing last-second shots which seemed at the time to have been launched in panic but which New Englanders have come to identify as merely "runnahs." There is the dramatic steal in 1965 against Philadelphia that won a playoff series and set off a mob scene and the unbelievable basket against Phoenix that saved a championship and provoked another riotous celebration fully 11 years later. Always there has been the running from baseline to baseline...click...the running...click, click. Now, at the end, still the running...click. This Sunday afternoon—for the first and last time—John Havlicek will stop running. After more than 30,000 points and 9,000 rebounds and nearly 7,000 assists, not to mention eight championships and two months of farewell festivities throughout the land, Havlicek will show up for his final game down there on the shining parquet floor of the Boston Garden. If he doesn't slip while wading through the tears, he may even get to play in it. That accomplished, it would be Havlicek's 1,441st game (including playoffs, for those without a program), which in turn would be more games in the NBA than anybody else, flesh and blood or bionic, ever played.

Because of this, Buffalo at Boston April 9 will be a media event: old Celtics, political personages, presidential messages, Jimmy the Greek and the like. But one hopes John Havlicek's last game will be much more than that, too.

For those who may have nodded off through much of the past two decades and missed Vietnam, Watergate and Mary Tyler Moore, not to mention the changing face of U.S. sport, John Havlicek survives as one of the few remaining links to American pop culture past. Not only for the way he played the games—flat out, at both ends, in two different positions, his versatility making him perhaps the finest player in the history of the NBA—but also for the type of man he is, Havlicek's retirement is a watershed on our domestic sports calendar.

Recently certain critics have rudely knifed through Havlicek's career-long diplomatic immunity to question the propriety of his personally orchestrated final trek through the league wherein at every stop he has been accorded hosannas and rewarded with enough appliances to fill backstage at The Price Is Right . One man went so far as to remark that attracting a full house by the presentation of an oversized soft pretzel trophy, Tastykakes and a 10-pound salami—a few of the 76ers' chosen gifts—was not exactly a fitting monument to Havlicek.

Even Celtic Center Dave Cowens had to laugh at his teammate's shrewdness. "The man mentions he likes motorboating and immediately a motor is produced in Seattle," Cowens said. " Chicago will probably come up with the boat."

And yet, how is a legend supposed to pass from the scene? Obviously Havlicek wished to avoid copying the tardy, tawdry leave-takings of some of the other heroes of his era: Elgin Baylor benched, Oscar Robertson unwanted. Even Jerry West, who, unlike the above, recognized full well when his time was up, marked the occasion by abruptly walking out of a Laker preseason camp, leaving his team high and dry and, maybe even more unforgivable, denying his legion of admirers one final look, one clap, one tear.

And yet, perhaps more than any of the stars, more than anybody, period, Havlicek has always related to the masses, and they to him.

In the enigmatic social strata of the NBA, Havlicek's race certainly is a factor. But so is his unique game—a relentless all-court activity based on intellect and hustle and execution. Clich� though it may be, Havlicek is the quintessential throwback to the old days, to the pre-trillionaire days, to the days when players cared about such trivial items as pride, teamwork and the difference between winning and losing.

Though he vehemently denies that the radical change in Celtic personnel over the past year and a half and the subsequent collapse of the once prideful team has anything to do with his decision to quit, one wonders. How really invigorating could it have been for Havlicek to continue playing alongside the likes of Sidney Wicks and Curtis Rowe, who once emerged from the shower after a humiliating 30-point defeat to announce, "What's everybody upset about? The W's and L's don't show up on the paychecks."

No, whatever he says, there was no way Havlicek could have risked his soul any longer in such an environment.

Another Celtic teammate, Kermit Washington, says this: "A lot of people have trouble identifying with the great talents like Dr. J and Kareem and the rest. But they know and love Havlicek because John wasn't born the best. He had to depend on hustle and determination and guts to get through all those years and win all those games. Fans relate to that."

Bob Cousy, risking sacrilege, remembers Havlicek when he came out of Ohio State and joined the Celtics for the 1962-63 season as a "non-shooter who would probably burn himself out." But Havlicek taught himself to shoot the next summer. Of course, this week, just like the Cooz said, Havlicek will burn himself out. Specifically, along about Saturday—when he becomes 38 years old.

Ironically, it was also Cousy who inspired Havlicek's cross-country retirement proceedings. No. 17's first season back there in the '60s was No. 14's last, and Havlicek always was to remember the road trips during which Cousy was honored on his final tour around what was then a nine-team NBA. "I was impressed with the positivity of the end," Havlicek said last week. "I wanted something like that. Of course it is a gate hype. But the NBA has been great to me. It set me up for life. The fans are responsible, and the franchises, too. If I can help out and get some more people in the buildings, I'm happy to do it."

Just a sampling of the encomiums that keep pouring in from his peers manifests how special an athlete Havlicek is (this confounded machine refuses to print "was").

Phoenix' Paul Westphal: "John is the one guy in the NBA who has never made a mistake."

Golden State's Rick Barry: "Havlicek is the only true superstar."

Detroit's Bob Lanier: "He's apple pie, hot dogs and all that stuff. His greatest contribution is as a model for our kids."

Los Angeles' Jerry West: "The guy is the ambassador of our sport. John always gave his very best every night and had time for everybody—teammates, fans, the press. He is simply the ideal everybody expects an athlete to be."

If you or anybody in your neighborhood has ever heard or read anything bad about Havlicek, you are urged to report whoever is spreading the infamy to police headquarters immediately. Aside from some major philosophical differences with his former teammate and coach, Tom Heinsohn—stemming from Heinsohn's letting Havlicek's close friend and Ohio State teammate, Larry Siegfried, go in the expansion draft of 1970—there is no record of Havlicek uttering a harsh word on any subject.

"The man has lived an extremely clean life," says his onetime roommate and present coach, Satch Sanders. "He has remained untouched by the broadening experiences of the world."

Havlicek's famous public moniker, "Hondo," was inspired by the John Wayne movie, but for years his teammates have called him Czech after the last syllable of his name. And when they make fun of him, it is usually about his fastidiousness in the locker room, where Czech places each piece of clothing on a separate hook, lines up his toiletries on the shelf according to height and folds his uniform square to the corners. "Czech's the only man in the NBA who keeps his socks on a hanger," says Celtic Trainer Frank Challant.

"That's not so funny," says Havlicek. "I'm a man of routine and discipline. My socks have to dry out. My whole life has been thought out."

And so, then, the end of his basketball career.

Havlicek wanted to reveal his intentions during the first week of the season, but when the Celtics got off to their horrid start General Manager Red Auerbach persuaded him to hold off.

Slowed by a preseason appendectomy and playing less than usual, Havlicek averaged only 12 points in his first 20 games. As the season disintegrated, with Jo Jo White being shelved with injuries, Charlie Scott being traded and Heinsohn being replaced by Sanders, Havlicek began to be counted on more and more, as in bygone times. He responded by averaging 16 points and 34 minutes a game, second only to Cowens on the club. In March, during one stretch of four games in consecutive days, Havlicek scored 20, 32, 25 and 27 points. Performances like that silenced doubts about his future usefulness, but Havlicek never looked back.

When he announced his retirement on Jan. 29, Havlicek mentioned that as he traveled the league for the last time he wanted to take "a little piece of every building and capture the memories." But in the first couple of cities he tried out his Sarah Bernhardt tour he was nervous and uneasy during the ceremonies, halting in the midst of his valedictory speeches. "I don't take compliments well," he said.

By last week, however, Havlicek had heard and said the same things so many times that the act had become studied. The Celtics were even dozing through it.

Before Boston defeated the crippled Portland Trail Blazers 104-92 on Tuesday in his final appearance in the Northwest, Havlicek was given a prolonged standing ovation during which even the champion Blazers stood up and applauded and saluted him as he turned round and round, waving to the crowd. Still, he was apparently unmoved. Moreover, in Denver the next night, though the sellout crowd was again loud and effusive, the honored guest's remarks were dull, flat, strained—even as wife Beth showed up glowing in a blue suit and enormous corsage.

"The captain's going stale with this thing," said Cowens.

"John's never been emotional," said Beth. "I say, 'Wow, look at that sunset,' and if he says, 'Yes, it's nice,' that means it's a fabulous sunset. He's not one to get lumps in the throat. He's not one to cry."

Somebody should have cried about the way the Celtics blew a five-point lead in the last 59 seconds to lose to the Nuggets 109-106. Havlicek was stripped of the ball by David Thompson and had an Alley Oop pass to Cowens deflected by Dan Issel, both in the last minute.

The fact that the once proud and machinelike Celtics had to resort to such a gimmick maneuver in a crisis was evidence enough how far the-team has fallen, but that was just a synopsis of the entire season. The Boston T party (T for Treason) continued unabated Friday night back home when San Antonio wiped out a 17-point deficit to beat the Celtics 120-117 after George Gervin blocked Havlicek's game-tying attempt with 31 seconds left. And then on Sunday, the final ignominy: Boston lost to Indiana 123-120, and was thereby eliminated from the playoffs for the first time since 1971.

Maybe it was just as well that the locals were now relieved of worrying about such mundane matters as the playoffs and could gird themselves for " John Havlicek Weekend."

Cowens was asked if he felt sentimental. "I don't think it's sentiment," he said. "The way I figure, John's never had a definite profile like Bill Russell or Cousy. He's played all these games without being recognized, and now everybody is apologizing for it. You tell me how many class guys there are like him anywhere. They ought to retire his number from the whole NBA. Just take 17 and stash it up there in lights."

Havlicek had two away games left—a quickie trip to Chicago and one to Providence—before coming home to close out the season. He had received his praise and prizes everywhere else with casual grace and practiced coolness. Surely. Boston would be different: three games of celebration, two nights and a final afternoon of melancholy and Auld Lang Syne. How could even this bravest of runners outrun his feelings?

"I'm not thinking about it," Havlicek said. "I want this thing to be upbeat, positive, unemotional. I have soft spots, but I don't think they'll come out on Sunday."

Nonetheless, a precedent had been set. Several weeks ago the Havlicek family sat at home watching a TV special in which the man of the house was all over the screen doing wonderful things with the basketball, the song Nobody Does It Better was on the soundtrack and a voice was saying that all of this would come to an end on April 9.

Beth Havlicek had already started to shake when 7-year-old Chris could take it no longer and ran upstairs weeping. When John reached the boy, Chris had all the pictures of his old man and himself in their Celtic uniforms spread out on the bedroom floor. "Chris just cried and cried," said his father. "I was really touched."

This weekend in Boston there will be a few more tears, and No. 17 will be touched again. What that means, John Havlicek, is that you have had a fabulous sunset.


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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #17 

Post#9 » by Sedale Threatt » Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:31 am

Nowitzki vs. James/Barkley is sort of like Duncan vs. O'Neal for me. You can make an excellent case for all three. The latter two were/are more explosively dominant, with a much bigger "wow" factor, but Nowitzki is just so consistently outstanding. Ten plus years of elite production, all without a whiff of the attitude issues of the other two. Probably leaning toward Nowitzki, LeBron, Barkley. Then starting to look at the Robinsons and Pettits of the world.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #17 

Post#10 » by Dr Positivity » Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:35 am

By the way, this is unrelated but I just stumbled across it looking at the Celtics records - I didn't know Bob Cousy still has the record for most FTs made in an NBA game (30). A playoff game, no less - in 1953. That's pretty cool, going on 60 years. He had 4 OTs to do it though. Shaq has the most attempts with 39 in the Finals vs Ind, but more impressively, 25 in a quarter vs Portland in the WCF which is just WOW
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #17 

Post#11 » by ThaRegul8r » Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:54 am

Re: LeBron. I find it difficult to rank an active player all-time when his career is still a work in progress, and he hasn't even played 10 years yet. With players such as Kobe and Duncan, we've already seen their prime, and so all-time rankings can be done since we've already seen their best. Dirk has put 13 seasons in, so people can start to think about where he should rank. But speaking for myself, I can't rank someone who doesn't even have a decade of work yet. And considering the way his season ended, it's best not to.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #17 

Post#12 » by Fencer reregistered » Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:24 am

Dr Mufasa wrote:This vote is between Lebron, Barkley and Dirk for me.

I'll do Dirk vs Barkley first because they're both PFs. Barkley is the more spectacular player, has a higher efficiency, volume, Orebs. But Dirk is just as unique a guard and opens up the game for teammates on the pnr. And his ORTG results are actually better. Peaked higher in ORTG with Nash, Jamison, Finley than Barkley did with the Suns, then went to a slowdown defensive style team under Avery and still brought them to top 5. Dirk's teams ranked top 5 in ORTG from 01 to 09. If Barkley is better offensively, it can't be by much. Not enough to outweigh Dirk's work ethic and fundamentals attitude that made the Mavs culture what it is and his greater health. Dirk has had the greater success and meant more to his teams than Barkley. Like K Malone vs Barkley, I give the benefit of the doubt to the guy who left nothing on the table. Dirk over Barkley for me

Dirk vs Lebron. Lebron is the more spectacular regular season player and has his highs in the playoffs like 06, 07, 08, 09. He has his lows but so does Dirk in 07. Is my preference for Dirk in the playoffs based on him coming through later rather than earlier and not more? Maybe. But the reason for Dirk's redemption is his extra years on Lebron. So hard not to give him credit there in any case. I don't want to put too much into a few years gap in longevity but Dirk certainly has an edge there if nothing else. At the very least, I trust older Dirk more than any Lebron in the playoffs, now. I thought Dirk was awesome in 08-10 too in the playoffs. But really, the 2011 Finals - It's the only argument I need, Sean. I simply cannot vote for Lebron over Dirk after Nowitzki took an experience and grit and determination beats raw talent, fool dump on Lebron.

Vote Dirk Nowitzki

Nomination - I think this is a good spot for Havlicek with guys like Pippen and Nash as the biggest vote getters last time. Hondo got overrated on the last list and on Bill Simmons' list so I think a lot of us got leery, but now he's getting underrated. I think he's more of an impact offensive player than Pippen because he can go off more scoring wise, especially in the playoffs. He dropped 23ppg in the 66 Finals, 27ppg in the 68 Finals, 28ppg in the 69 Finals, 26ppg in the 74 Finals. That's legitimate production. I think he has a better record than Pippen and Stockton as kind of the man, so I'll give it to him

Nominate John Havlicek


My sentiments almost precisely, and my votes too.

I do give bonus points for special accomplishments and breakthroughs. Havlicek was the first great 6th man, even if Ramsay got into the HOF ahead of him, establishing the "It doesn't matter who starts the game, just who finishes it" rule forever after. Havlicek was also the first great side-to-side perimeter defender that I know of. It doesn't matter if the players who most follow in those footsteps aren't even all-stars; he still set the tone for a lot of good stuff that came after him. In essence, Havlicek was a pathbreaking "energy player".

As for Dirk, he's the first great Euro player. 20 years from now, I think we'll look back and see that his example has helped inspire other players we're happy to see in the league, especially in the face of the failures that so many other Euros have been. He's living proof a Euro can excel here.

Meanwhile, since I don't much like high-flying iso play, I prefer not to give bonus points to guys for being pioneers in that area (e.g. Jordan, or even the high flyers before him, Baylor and Erving). Ditto LeBron. I do admire his energy, the athleticism of his transition defense, and his occasionally Bird-like passing. (Other times, he pounds the ball and makes poor decisions trying for the highlight pass.) But I question the claim that he's spent 5 years as the top player in the league; I don't recall his defense as being very impressive that long ago.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #17 

Post#13 » by Fencer reregistered » Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:28 am

Dr Mufasa wrote:By the way, this is unrelated but I just stumbled across it looking at the Celtics records - I didn't know Bob Cousy still has the record for most FTs made in an NBA game (30). A playoff game, no less - in 1953. That's pretty cool, going on 60 years. He had 4 OTs to do it though. Shaq has the most attempts with 39 in the Finals vs Ind, but more impressively, 25 in a quarter vs Portland in the WCF which is just WOW


That's the 50-point game, isn't it? I think that was a team record until Ray Allen vs. the Bulls in 2009.

Celtics broadcasts have a daily trivia question. When Heinsohn or Cousy is on the broadcast, the answer from time to time is "Me". :)
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #17 

Post#14 » by shawngoat23 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:36 am

I'm uncertain at this point. I think LeBron is the best player remaining, but his career to this point has been short, and he doesn't have a championship ring yet. Certainly, that distinction does not make or break a career, but on the other hand, it is the goal every player seeks and one which remains missing from his resume.

I would consider picking him here, and I still might, but how do I reconcile the fact that Dirk Nowitzki outperformed him when it mattered most, with a weaker overall supporting cast at that? Add to that comparison the fact that Nowitzki has longevity in his favor, and Nowitzki isn't even the next guy on my list!
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #17 

Post#15 » by Gongxi » Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:58 am

ThaRegul8r wrote:Re: LeBron. I find it difficult to rank an active player all-time when his career is still a work in progress, and he hasn't even played 10 years yet. With players such as Kobe and Duncan, we've already seen their prime, and so all-time rankings can be done since we've already seen their best. Dirk has put 13 seasons in, so people can start to think about where he should rank. But speaking for myself, I can't rank someone who doesn't even have a decade of work yet. And considering the way his season ended, it's best not to.


Just pretend he died last week. Problem solved.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #17 

Post#16 » by ronnymac2 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:07 am

Gongxi wrote:
ThaRegul8r wrote:Re: LeBron. I find it difficult to rank an active player all-time when his career is still a work in progress, and he hasn't even played 10 years yet. With players such as Kobe and Duncan, we've already seen their prime, and so all-time rankings can be done since we've already seen their best. Dirk has put 13 seasons in, so people can start to think about where he should rank. But speaking for myself, I can't rank someone who doesn't even have a decade of work yet. And considering the way his season ended, it's best not to.


Just pretend he died last week. Problem solved.


:lol:


The vote comes down to James, Nowitzki, and Barkley. The nomination comes down to Nash, Drexler, and Thomas.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #17 

Post#17 » by ThaRegul8r » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:49 am

Gongxi wrote:
ThaRegul8r wrote:Re: LeBron. I find it difficult to rank an active player all-time when his career is still a work in progress, and he hasn't even played 10 years yet. With players such as Kobe and Duncan, we've already seen their prime, and so all-time rankings can be done since we've already seen their best. Dirk has put 13 seasons in, so people can start to think about where he should rank. But speaking for myself, I can't rank someone who doesn't even have a decade of work yet. And considering the way his season ended, it's best not to.


Just pretend he died last week. Problem solved.


Really now? Let's look...

ThaRegul8r wrote:Re: LeBron. I find it difficult to rank an active player all-time when his career is still a work in progress, and he hasn't even played 10 years yet. With players such as Kobe and Duncan, we've already seen their prime, and so all-time rankings can be done since we've already seen their best. Dirk has put 13 seasons in, so people can start to think about where he should rank. But speaking for myself, I can't rank someone who doesn't even have a decade of work yet. And considering the way his season ended, it's best not to.


Your "resolution" does absolutely nothing with regard to the bolded area of my post.

:nonono:

Fail.

ronnymac2 wrote:
Gongxi wrote:
ThaRegul8r wrote:Re: LeBron. I find it difficult to rank an active player all-time when his career is still a work in progress, and he hasn't even played 10 years yet. With players such as Kobe and Duncan, we've already seen their prime, and so all-time rankings can be done since we've already seen their best. Dirk has put 13 seasons in, so people can start to think about where he should rank. But speaking for myself, I can't rank someone who doesn't even have a decade of work yet. And considering the way his season ended, it's best not to.


Just pretend he died last week. Problem solved.


:lol:


I agree it's funny when someone proposes a solution which doesn't in fact "solve the problem."
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #17 

Post#18 » by Gongxi » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:05 am

Lighten up, Francis.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #17 

Post#19 » by JordansBulls » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:30 pm

I think I may take Bob Pettit here:

VOTE: Bob Pettit
Nominate: Isiah Thomas


Pettit won 2 league mvp's, won a title as well, led in PER 4x and win shares 1x, brought the Hawks there only title in NBA History and managed to even beat the Celtics in the finals.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #17 

Post#20 » by Pistol Pete Vescey » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:46 pm

V: Pettit
N: Pippen


What's the argument for Lebron over Pettit? (I may go back and change my vote later.)

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