RealGM Top 100 List #22

[penbeast0]

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days at 10PM EST (note the new time as school is restarting)

Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:

John Stockton

2x All-NBA 1st Team
6x All-NBA 2nd Team
3x All-NBA 3rd Team
5x All-Defense 2nd Team
10x All-Star
All-Star MVP (1993)
NBA’s All-Time leader in Assists
NBA’s All-Time leader in Steals
Hall of Fame 2009


Scottie Pippen

6x NBA Champion
3x All-NBA 1st team
2x All-NBA 2nd team
2x All-NBA 3rd Team
8x All-Defense 1st Team
2x All-Defense 2nd Team
7x All-Star
All-Star MVP (1994)
Hall of Fame (2010)

Isiah Thomas

2x NBA Champion (1989, 1990)
NBA Finals MVP (1990)
3× All-NBA 1st Team
2x All-NBA 2nd Team
12× All-Star
2x All-Star MVP (1984, 1986)
Hall of Fame (2000)


Steve Nash

* 2xMVP (2005, 2006)
* 3x 1st All-NBA
* 2x 2nd All-NBA
* 2x 3rd All-NBA
* 7x All-Star

John Havlicek

* 8x NBA Champion
* Finals MVP (1974)
* 4x All-NBA First Team Selection
* 7x All-NBA Second Team Selection
* 5x NBA All-Defensive 1st Team Selection
* 3x NBA All-Defensive 2nd Team Selection
* 13x AllStar
* Basketball HOF Player (1984)

Patrick Ewing

* 1x All-NBA First Team Selection
* 6x All-NBA Second Team Selection
* 2x NBA All-Defensive 2nd Team Selection
* 11x All-STar
* Rookie of the Year (1986)
* Basketball HOF Player (2008)

Elgin Baylor

* 10× All-NBA First Team Selection
* 11× All-Star
* NBA All-Star Game MVP (1959)
* Rookie of the Year (1959)
* Voted to the Hall of Fame in 1977
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team


Rick Barry

* NBA Champion (1975)
* NBA Finals MVP (1975)
* 5× All-NBA First Team Selection
* 1× All-NBA Second Team Selection
* 4× All-ABA 1st Team Selection
* Rookie of the Year (1966)
* NBA All-Star Game MVP (1967)
* 12× All-Star (8 NBA, 4 ABA)
* Voted to the HOF in 1987

Walt Frazier

* NBA Champion (1970, 1973)
* 4× All-NBA First Team Selection
* 2× All-NBA Second Team Selection
* 7x 1st Team All-Defense
* NBA All-Star Game MVP (1975)
* 7× All-Star
* Voted to the HOF in 1987

Dwyane Wade

NBA Champion (2006)
7x NBA All-Star
2x All-NBA First Team
3 All-NBA Second Team
1x All-NBA Third Team
3x All-NBA Defensive Second Team
2010 All-Star Game MVP
2006 NBA Finals MVP

[Dr Positivity]

This is where the voting split will get a little wild IMO

[penbeast0]

From Lists (FJS’s list only ran through #21 though Elgin Baylor would be his vote if he doesn’t post this thread)

Jerky Way
VOTE: Dwyane Wade
Nominate: Clyde Drexler

JordansBulls
VOTE: Elgin Baylor
Nominate: Clyde Drexler

[penbeast0]

Two main candidates:

Elgin Baylor
Pro -- Super scorer and rebounder, led team to NBA finals multiple times as primary shooter
Con -- Not that efficient, no rings
Compare -- Baylor to my mind is clearly better than Barry who is no more efficient and doesn't have the great rebounding or resume outside of his one title; Havlicek is tougher call but again, if the knock on Baylor is efficiency, he is as efficient as Hondo with a lot more scoring and rebounding although Havlicek has defense, rings, and picked up his game in the 70s. And Havlicek comes up statistically as efficient as Pippen with era adjustment but has more rings/influence on title teams at least in 70s/intangibles.


Walt Frazier
Pro -- Do it all player with super efficient scoring, GOAT PG defense, and good playmaking who led the Knicks to their only 2 titles with dominant finals (1A/1B with Reed in title one but clearly team leader in title two)
Con -- Only about a 10 year career as a top player.
Compare -- Wade just doesn't have enough seasons though he is closing and Frazier sets himself apart from Nash because of defense and finals play, and from Isiah with his scoring efficiency and defense.

Ewing is the only center here but isn't as dominant as either Frazier or Baylor though his defense may be enough to put him in Baylor's category. But for offense, defense, and dominant performance under playoff pressure for an extended period, Walt Frazier is the clear choice.

VOTE: WALT FRAZIER

[penbeast0]

As for the nomination, at center I still favor Artis Gilmore. Artis was a dominant player in the ABA, 1A/1B with Julius Erving as best player, and still an outstanding one once he came to the NBA particularly in terms of scoring efficiency -- counting only his NBA years he is the all time most efficient scorer in league history on decent volume and with good defense and rebounding as well. (2nd most efficient with a stretch of great defense and a Finals MVP when you include the ABA).

Dwight Howard hasn't done enough yet to pass him, Zo had health issues and was always a step behind the best like Shaq/Robinson/Duncan/etc. Willis Reed and Wes Unseld weren't as individually dominant and broke down faster too, while Neil Johnston and Mel Daniels played against inferior competition during their primes and were more limited besides. At PF, McHale didn't rebound as well and doesn't beat out Artis for efficiency, McHale's main argument. Hayes does rebound that well but was inefficient and a jerk.

On the wings, the defacto next guy seems to be Clyde Drexler though there were some very good posts about Paul Pierce. Another guy to consider is George Gervin who is the greatest wing scorer not name Jordan and carried some very mediocre Spurs teams further than you would expect. Normally he would not be my type of player with his crappy defense and one-dimensional game but it's a pretty damned impressive dimension for a long long time with excellent efficiency.

Finally, there is the PG battle between the arguable GOAT defensive PG (and consistent 20 pt scorer) goes up against the great playmaking but really awful shooting Jason Kidd, the great playmaking but inefficient for era (especially in playoffs) Bob Cousy, and the young gun with 2 great years but only 5 1/2 years total, Chris Paul. This is easily Payton.

Among Gilmore, Drexler, and Payton, I would take Gilmore. Until recent rule changes, there were few players with the impact of a great 2-way center. I could see voting for one of the other two players and will switch my vote if it is tied between one of them and a player I rank lower but for now:

Nomination -- Artis Gilmore

[ElGee]

Vote: Dwyane Wade
Nominate: Gary Payton

I feel like Payton is being slammed a bit for his personality, and at times, knuckleheadedness (it's a word). It's fair if that's a big player in one's criteria, but many great players had such traits. And to wit, the dude got into a yelling/ego match with half the Miami team (including Wade) in the 2006 PS and then gave great role player minutes to help as part of a title run. Knuckleheads can win, too. He could be pretty damn awesome in a unipolar role and clearly a major player in a multipolar role. Again, I don't think it's correct to think of him as a PG (or certainly not a typically quarterbacking PG) and slam him for playing slightly different. I think he's a pretty darn valuable guard.

As for Artis Gilmore, I love to hear Penbeast's take here, but I question the categorization of Gilmore as "1B' with Julius Erving in the ABA. The media ABSOLUTELY did not categorize them that way. Yes, there were high hopes for Artis, but nothing like Julius. And nothing like what J was recognized for, or did, in the last few years of that league (while Gimore's star seemingly dampened in that time).

And I think you can make a decent case that George McGinnis was No. 2 with Gilmore in the ABA...but both were light years behind Dr. J. Furthermore, if someone like Barry stayed in the league, obviously he would be another player ahead of Gilmore...so give Artis credit for his rightful place in a very good ABA, but let's not get carried away with that given that it was also in divided leagues and he wasn't anywhere near Julius Erving.

Not sure if Wade needs an explanation, but can try and provide one later if so...

[penbeast0]

When they talked about redistributing the ABA players in 76 when it became clear the league was folding like it or not, I remember a lot of discussion of Gilmore possibly going ahead of Erving if there was a redraft -- partially because of positional needs, partially because many people didn't think Erving's game would translate to the NBA whereas Gilmore's clearly would it seemed, but even when McGinnis was in the league and was co-MVP, he didn't get that kind of respect it was more a recognition of the huge numbers he was putting up.

Of course, behind the scenes we now know that Chicago was blocking any merger or plan that didn't let them have Gilmore automatically since they had his draft rights but before the fact and in the media at the time, it wasn't clear how things would shake out.

. . .

To quote Bill James about Roger Clemens's HOF chances a lot of years ago, Wade has the highlights, now he just has to fill in the background. I just don't think 5 full seasons and 3 partial seasons are enough to put him over Frazier when Frazier and Wade's games and playoff impact are in the same ballpark (Wade has the offensive edge, Frazier the defensive one) . . . longevity isn't everything but it's certainly one factor and having your star not have a 5 year stretch where he didn't miss at least 30 games TWICE hurts your team. There's a reason why Miami ended up at the bottom of the league standings during Wade's peak; if you build around a star and he can't stay healthy it's a huge problem.

If Wade has another couple of healty all-star years, that's a big factor for me. Bill Walton, for example, will probably not even be in my top 100 because I remember what his injuries did to Portland and then to San Diego for years. He had 1 great year where everything clicked but around that were 6 or 7 years where those teams built around him, paid him like a HOF player, and he went down leaving the team to crash and burn before finally Boston got 1 year as a FA reserve out of him. Is one great year and 7 where your team implodes enough to beat out even the likes of Walt Bellamy or Yao Ming? Probably not for most GMs.

[Gongxi]

I thought Gilmore and Stockton each had 6 votes for the nomination? I was so hoping we didn't add a nominee this thread because of that.

It's probably going to come down to Wade/Frazier/Baylor for me, but I could really be swayed here.

[ElGee]

When they talked about redistributing the ABA players in 76 when it became clear the league was folding like it or not, I remember a lot of discussion of Gilmore possibly going ahead of Erving if there was a redraft -- partially because of positional needs, partially because many people didn't think Erving's game would translate to the NBA whereas Gilmore's clearly would it seemed, but even when McGinnis was in the league and was co-MVP, he didn't get that kind of respect it was more a recognition of the huge numbers he was putting up.

Of course, behind the scenes we now know that Chicago was blocking any merger or plan that didn't let them have Gilmore automatically since they had his draft rights but before the fact and in the media at the time, it wasn't clear how things would shake out.

But what do you mean by you "remember discussion?" By whom? I've read basically every single SI story written in the 1970s about basketball, and remember no such talk on that end and would never characterize Gilmore's praise in the same light as J's. Nor have I seen anything like it pouring over newspapers...now maybe that's because he wasn't as flashy, but he was also seeing decreased MVP acknowledgment as the ABA improved in its final years. *shrug*

It's fine to say Gilmore didn't get the fair exposure Julius did, but then you could say the same thing for McGinnis relative to Gilmore (and McGinnis won the 75 MVP!).

To quote Bill James about Roger Clemens's HOF chances a lot of years ago, Wade has the highlights, now he just has to fill in the background. I just don't think 5 full seasons and 3 partial seasons are enough to put him over Frazier when Frazier and Wade's games and playoff impact are in the same ballpark (Wade has the offensive edge, Frazier the defensive one) . . . longevity isn't everything but it's certainly one factor and having your star not have a 5 year stretch where he didn't miss at least 30 games TWICE hurts your team. There's a reason why Miami ended up at the bottom of the league standings during Wade's peak; if you build around a star and he can't stay healthy it's a huge problem.

If Wade has another couple of healty all-star years, that's a big factor for me. Bill Walton, for example, will probably not even be in my top 100 because I remember what his injuries did to Portland and then to San Diego for years. He had 1 great year where everything clicked but around that were 6 or 7 years where those teams built around him, paid him like a HOF player, and he went down leaving the team to crash and burn before finally Boston got 1 year as a FA reserve out of him. Is one great year and 7 where your team implodes enough to beat out even the likes of Walt Bellamy or Yao Ming? Probably not for most GMs.

You've always been consistent about Walton and I think the idea of factoring in salary space and team planning is interesting and worth more consideration. But for Dwyane Wade, I don't think you're being fair here. Miami hit the bottom of the standings because of injuries/tanking in basically unloading the 2008 season. Yes, Wade did have 2 of 8 seasons marred by serious injuries, but would you even mention this if he played on a stacked team in 07 and was able to play a secondary role when he returned to someone like Michael Jordan if the circumstances were different? (And I say this as someone who heavily docks that season, I just don't think you can categorize it as some kind of team sabotage issue).

Then you look at the guy you have here, Frazier, and he really only goes strong from 69-75, with a drop off and his last good final year IMO in 1976. Wade's rookie year (04) and his 07 season are comparable to Frazier in 76 to me...so the longevity of prime is almost a non-issue here...and Wade crushes him with a clearly superior peak. People who are hesitant to vote him this high keep mentioning "only 5 healthy prime years," but fail to mention they are 5 healthy prime years as one of the best players in the world.

[lorak]

vote: Nash

penbeast0,

I send you my list by PM

[therealbig3]

Vote: Wade
Nominate: Gilmore

[Dr Positivity]

Well short forming my arguments from the last thread:

Baylor over Havlicek, Baylor's early peak beats Hondo's late one albeit both are very impressive, and Baylor in the 60s put up much better numbers and was considered the better player by MVP and All-NBA votes.

Wade over Frazier, the difference in longevity really isn't that big - Frazier made 7 all-star teams but the 7th one was a 59 G season. He essentially gives you 6 superstar seasons, which is also his All-NBA count. Wade has 5 seasons at an entirely different level peak wise. If given the choice, I'm taking Wade there.

Ewing vs Wade is really hard, Ewing is about the point where "10-12 elite years of him vs 5 super elite of Wade" starts to become a question. I still take Ewing there. Having him for 2x more title chances is too much to overcome IMO

So Baylor vs Ewing vs Nash. The offensive impact of Nash and defensive impact of Ewing seems too much for Baylor to overcome. So not voting for him. Ewing vs Nash for me then. Unfortunately I feel like I'll be saying "Ewing or Nash" for about 3-4 more threads after this because everyone is underrating them (IMO). Anyways. They're pretty much opposites aren't they. You can even look at their supporting casts the same way. Ewing had a bunch of defensive skillugly players to match his game but not enough offense to win a title, Nash had a bunch of offensive players to match his game but not enough defense to win a title. Both got stopped repeatedly by the dominant team in their conference/the league.

I don't give Ewing *that* big of a longevity edge as Nash just posted his 11th straight 19 PER+ season and was over 8 WS his last 4 Dallas years and the Mavs went 4th, 1st, 1st, 1st in ORTG those years. I know Dallas Nash isn't the same, but it's not nothing either - plus 7 years as good as they've been for Nash isn't so bad. Ewing has his first 2 injury plagued, questionable Ws impact years then 10 years of excellence. I'd say if Nash put up 11 straight years of his Phoenix impact, he'd get the nod pretty cleanly here vs Ewing's 10-12, but I can downgrade him a bit for a smaller peak in Dallas.

So I'll go with the tiebreaking question of: Whose career would I take, if given the choice? My gut says Steve Nash but I wouldn't feel confident making the choice. I do feel he has the highest peak and that's enough I suppose. Again though, can't help but feel I'll be on Nash island for a few threads here anyways

Vote: Steve Nash

Nominate: Dave Cowens

MVP winner, 2x best guy on a title team, GOAT jacks up his team's energy level ability, has a mini Walton game. This guy was an extremely valuable C. Rebounded, shot with range, fantastic outlet passer, finished breaks, defended better than his size. I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt for how succesful he made the Celtics again. Havlicek couldn't do it on his own in the first post Russell year. As far as I can tell Cowens was the complete opposite of Gilmore in a good way

[Dr Positivity]

Actually, I might nominate Dwight Howard instead. Will have to sleep on it. He doesn't give you that much less longevity than Cowens does. Howard has by far the highest peak of anyone not nominated.

[ronnymac2]

I'm disappointed Robinson got in so quickly. I wanted to see a Robinson vs. Ewing debate.

I'm starting to like a Payton nomination right about now. Dwight, Cowens or maybe some of the super-peak players are in contention, too. Obviously Drexler is still up there for me.

Probably voting for D-Wade.

[Fencer reregistered]

It's getting tough for me now.

Baylor is an obvious candidate, but just how good was he after his first major knee injury?

Havlicek seems to be in the odd position of suffering because of his long career -- he was a good player on a bunch of championship teams, and then became an elite player for a whole bunch of years after that.

Pippen's career is like Havlicek's, but in different orders; e.g., Pippen's ring-every-year years and his elite years overlapped much more than Havlicek's did.

Dr. Mufasa's Ewing vs. Nash (vs. Wade et al.) reasoning looks pretty sound to me. I'd add that the Ewing Knicks defense and the Nash Suns offense also operated under innovative coaching schemes. I'd also add that I have an "eye test" problem with lumbering centers, and Ewing IMO was one.

Finally, adding to my confusion, there's the supporting cast issue. Phoenix ownership really messed up that team. On the other hand, the peak of Nash's supporting cast feels better than the peak of Ewing's, yet Ewing got further in the post-season. On the third hand, it often takes guys some time to be fortunate enough to be on a team that has everything fall into place for a championship (think Dirk), and Nash never got that chance.

[Fencer reregistered]

Unless I'm forgetting about somebody, we're in an intangibles-free discussion zone right now, for list and nominations alike. (But that will change as soon as Barry comes up for serious consideration.) Guys were generally good teammates, etc., and either were loyal to their respective franchises or else swapped teams in their prime once for money reasons. But nobody I can think of is regarded as having some particularly awesome positive-intangibles effect on the rest of his team.

[shawngoat23]

How do you guys compare the peaks of Baylor and Wade?

[ElGee]

Actually, I might nominate Dwight Howard instead. Will have to sleep on it. He doesn't give you that much less longevity than Cowens does. Howard has by far the highest peak of anyone not nominated.

Bernard King, Tracy McGrady, Bob McAdoo and George Gervin all just cringed.

How do you guys compare the peaks of Baylor and Wade?

I'll take Wade by a mile. I don't think much of Baylor defensively and while he has a brilliant slasher, I don't regard him as some incredibly offensive force (Doc MJ has had many good posts about his efficiency and impact on team shifts.) He does look like a phenomenal rebounder early in his career. But his pace-adjusted scoring numbers aren't extraordinary on their own:

1960 20.9 pts/75 +2.6% rel TS
1961 23.0 pts/75 +2.9% rel TS
1962 24.7 pts/75 +1.3% rel TS
1963 24.4 pts/75 +2.7% rel TS
1964 20.1 pts/75 +0.2% rel TS

He has a number of seasons after that with below average efficiency, despite playing with prime Jerry West. I was also able to find 12 of the 15 games LA played without Baylor in 1966:

w/out Baylor: 119.2 ppg 115.5 opp ppg
w/Baylor: 119.5 ppg 116.5 opp ppg

They were 0.7 pts worse with Elgin.

I give him credit for some big postseason/Finals performances earlier in his career, but I don't necessarily think of him as a player that joins a team and hugely boosts their offense (or defense), particularly in a bipolar or multipolar system. He's probably better in the Iverson role for bad teams.

[penbeast0]

(I just don't think you can categorize it as some kind of team sabotage issue).

Then you look at the guy you have here, Frazier, and he really only goes strong from 69-75, with a drop off and his last good final year IMO in 1976. Wade's rookie year (04) and his 07 season are comparable to Frazier in 76 to me...so the longevity of prime is almost a non-issue here...and Wade crushes him with a clearly superior peak. People who are hesitant to vote him this high keep mentioning "only 5 healthy prime years," but fail to mention they are 5 healthy prime years as one of the best players in the world.

Of course Wade didn't intentionally sabotage his team any more than Walton did but when you build around a star and the star goes down for a third of the season, that's what often happens . . . your team falls apart.

And there's a difference between 2 healthy seasons, 2 injury riddled seasons, then 3 reasonable healthy seasons . . . and 7 prime seasons where you play 77 or more games each year averaging 20/6.5/6.5 with best in the league for a guard shooting efficiency and GOAT defense (plus a rookie year and a 19/7/6 year after 1 year of missing time). That's more like a LeBron duration prime, Wade's injury issues are much more of a factor and coming in the middle of his 5 year prime, are much more damaging to a team.

I don't see any real longevity/injury problems for Frazier (no bonus either); his peak was 7 consecutive years where you could build a team around him as best player and get a couple of championships. Wade still needs a year or two of All-Pro level play (doesn't have to be an MVP caliber or championship year but two more healthy solid years) to pass Frazier because I think Frazier's defense and greater era efficiency roughly match Wade's greater scoring impact so the solid, injury free peak easily puts Frazier over the top for me.

[pancakes3]

They were 0.7 pts worse with Elgin.

i think the proper conclusion is "they were the same with or without baylor in the season immediately following his catastrophic knee injury where he was still rehabbing and was slowly worked back into the lineup/game shape as evident by his relatively low minutes"