RealGM Top 100 List #24

[penbeast0]

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days at 10PM EST (note the new time as school is restarting)

Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:

Gary Payton

NBA Champion (2006)
2× All-NBA First Team Selection
5× All-NBA Second Team Selection
2x All-NBA Third Team Selections
NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1996)
9x 1st Team All-Defense
9× All-Star


Artis Gilmore

ABA MVP 1972
ABA Champion 1975
ABA Playoff MVP 1975
5x All-ABA 1st Team
4x ABA All-Defense 1st Team
1x NBA All-Defense 2nd Team
ABA All-Star Game MVP 1974
5xABA All-Star
6xNBA All-Star
ABA Rookie of the Year 1972
Hall of Fame 2011



John Stockton

2x All-NBA 1st Team
6x All-NBA 2nd Team
3x All-NBA 3rd Team
5x All-Defense 2nd Team
10x All-Star
All-Star MVP (1993)
NBA’s All-Time leader in Assists
NBA’s All-Time leader in Steals
Hall of Fame 2009


Scottie Pippen

6x NBA Champion
3x All-NBA 1st team
2x All-NBA 2nd team
2x All-NBA 3rd Team
8x All-Defense 1st Team
2x All-Defense 2nd Team
7x All-Star
All-Star MVP (1994)
Hall of Fame (2010)

Isiah Thomas

2x NBA Champion (1989, 1990)
NBA Finals MVP (1990)
3× All-NBA 1st Team
2x All-NBA 2nd Team
12× All-Star
2x All-Star MVP (1984, 1986)
Hall of Fame (2000)


Steve Nash

* 2xMVP (2005, 2006)
* 3x 1st All-NBA
* 2x 2nd All-NBA
* 2x 3rd All-NBA
* 7x All-Star

John Havlicek

* 8x NBA Champion
* Finals MVP (1974)
* 4x All-NBA First Team Selection
* 7x All-NBA Second Team Selection
* 5x NBA All-Defensive 1st Team Selection
* 3x NBA All-Defensive 2nd Team Selection
* 13x AllStar
* Basketball HOF Player (1984)

Patrick Ewing

* 1x All-NBA First Team Selection
* 6x All-NBA Second Team Selection
* 2x NBA All-Defensive 2nd Team Selection
* 11x All-STar
* Rookie of the Year (1986)
* Basketball HOF Player (2008)

Elgin Baylor

* 10× All-NBA First Team Selection
* 11× All-Star
* NBA All-Star Game MVP (1959)
* Rookie of the Year (1959)
* Voted to the Hall of Fame in 1977
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team


Rick Barry

* NBA Champion (1975)
* NBA Finals MVP (1975)
* 5× All-NBA First Team Selection
* 1× All-NBA Second Team Selection
* 4× All-ABA 1st Team Selection
* Rookie of the Year (1966)
* NBA All-Star Game MVP (1967)
* 12× All-Star (8 NBA, 4 ABA)
* Voted to the HOF in 1987

[penbeast0]

From lists sent to me:

FJS
Vote – Elgin Baylor

Jerky Way
Vote – Steve Nash
Nominate – Clyde Drexler

JordansBulls
Vote – Elgin Baylor
Nominate – Clyde Drexler

mysticbb
Vote – Steve Nash
Nominate – Jason Kidd

[penbeast0]

Voting Candidates
The PGs are here. Steve Nash has been the offense changer, some great posts here. John Stockton is as efficient as Nash and better assists and defense but less scoring. Isiah Thomas and Gary Payton are very similar statistically with Isiah having more team success and Payton having much greater defensive strength. Believing that PG defense is very important to winning championships particularly in the pre-Jordan era, I lean to Stockton and Payton over Nash and Thomas but will not commit here because the arguments have been extremely interesting and have made a good case for Nash, if not Isiah.

Among the wings, Baylor to my mind is clearly better than Barry who is no more efficient and doesn't have the great rebounding or resume outside of his one title; Havlicek is tougher call but again, if the knock on Baylor is efficiency, he is as efficient as Hondo with a lot more scoring and rebounding although Havlicek has defense, rings, and picked up his game in the 70s. And Havlicek comes up statistically as efficient as Pippen with era adjustment but has more rings/influence on title teams at least in 70s/intangibles.

Elgin Baylor – Raw Numbers (league efg) then adjusted per36 numbers
Year Mpg Reb Ast Pts TS% (fg) Reb Ast Pts TS%
1960 42.9 19.8 5.1 34.8 .498 .415 9.7 4.0 25.5 .598
1961 44.4 18.6 4.6 38.3 .492 .426 9.0 3.5 26.6 .575 (only 48g due to military)
1962 42.1 14.3 4.8 34.0 .519 .441 7.8 4.0 25.7 .586
1963 40.6 12.0 4.4 25.4 .487 .433 6.8 4.0 20.8 .560
1964 41.3 12.8 3.8 27.1 .463 .426 7.1 3.5 21.9 .541


Rick Barry -- Raw Numbers (league efg) then adjusted per36 numbers
Year Mpg Reb Ast Pts TS% (fg) Reb Ast Pts TS%
1973 37.5 8.9 4.9 22.3 .508 .456 7.0 4.0 19.8 .555
1974 36.5 6.8 6.1 25.1 .515 .459 5.7 5.2 23.3 .559
1975 40.4 5.7 6.2 30.6 .509 .457 4.5 5.0 26.5 .555 (NBA Champion)
1976 38.5 6.1 6.1 21.0 .483 .458 5.0 5.3 18.8 .525
1977 36.8 5.3 6.0 21.8 .500 .465 4.6 5.3 20.0 .535

For Havlicek and Pippen I took a look earlier at their career (NOT peak) numbers and adjusted them to 2011 equivalents per 36 minutes.

Havlicek – Career
Scoring 20.8 (20.4/36 – 17.4 adj)
Efficiency .492 ts% (.537 adj)
Rebounding 6.2 (4.9 adj)
Assists 4.8 (4.2 adj)


Pippen – Career
Scoring 16.6 (16.6/36 – 15.3 adj)
Efficiency .536 ts% (.538 adj)
Rebounding 6.6 (6.6 adj)
Assists 5.2 (4.8 adj)


Ewing and Gilmore are the big men here. Both are statistically impressive but neither was as dominant as Baylor though defense may be enough to put them in Baylor's category.

VOTE: tentatively Elgin Baylor though pretty shaky . . .

[penbeast0]

PG -- It is between the great playmaking but really awful shooting Jason Kidd, the great playmaking but inefficient even for his era (especially in playoffs) Bob Cousy, and the young gun with 2 great years but only 5 1/2 years total, Chris Paul. Other candidates include the injury prone Kevin Johnson, the surprisingly efficient Chauncey Billups, and possibly Hal Greer or Lenny Wilkens from the 60s.

Wings -- On the wings, the defacto next guy seems to be Clyde Drexler though there were some very good posts about Paul Pierce. Another guy to consider is George Gervin who is the greatest wing scorer not name Jordan and carried some very mediocre Spurs teams further than you would expect. Normally he would not be my type of player with his crappy defense and one-dimensional game but it's a pretty damned impressive dimension for a long long time with excellent efficiency.

Since they are all pretty comparable players in terms of positional ability, let’s do a statistical comparisom for Clyde Drexler, George Gervin, and Paul Pierce. Drexler played 15 years, Gervin 14, and Pierce 13 and still going so there isn’t a major longevity issue – I pulled the first 13 years for each from B-R.com’s Player Comparison Finder and am using per36 numbers for the comparison because Pierce has played almost 3min/game more than the other two over their careers (which gives him a slight edge to make up for any longevity edge) and I am wanting to see if adjusting the numbers gives Pierce an edge.

REGULAR SEASON – Gervin is the scorer but doesn’t have the playmaking

Drexler 6.5reb 5.9ast 2.2st 2.9to 21.7pts .548ts%
Gervin 5.8reb 2.8ast 1.4st 3.2to 27.1pts .566ts%
Pierce 5.9reb 3.7ast 1.4st 2.8to 21.6pts .569ts%

PLAYOFFS – All three perform at a similar rate in their playoffs (in 38-40 mpg)

Drexler 7.1reb 6.4ast 2.2st 2.9to 21.0pts .534ts%
Gervin 7.0reb 2.9ast 1.4st 3.2to 27.1pts .560ts%
Pierce 6.5reb 4.0ast 1.4st 2.8to 21.4pts .559ts%

ADJUSTED (pace adjusted points and efg adjusted ts%)

Drexler (league average 106.5) = 20.2adj ppg (.491 league efg) .556adj ts%
Gervin (league average 109.2) =24.7adj ppg (.482 league efg) .585 adj ts%
Pierce (league average 97.0) = 22.0adj ppg (.485 league efg) .584 adj ts%

ACCOLADES
Drexler – 1x1st, 2x2nd, 2x3rd All-NBA, .778 MVP Shares (2nd in 1992)
Gervin – 5x1st, 2x2nd All-NBA, 2x2nd All-ABA, .991 MVP Shares (2nd in 78 and 79, 3rd in 80)
Pierce – 1980 Finals MVP, 1x2nd, 3x3rd All-NBA, .040 MVP Shares (best is 7th in 09)

This makes me rethink my endorsement of Drexler who was the most visually impressive to me. Pierce moves ahead of him in adjusted statistics although still well behind in contemporary recognition, but Gervin is easily ahead of either of them in terms of peer recognition and is still the highest scoring and most efficient scorer even after adjusting for era (I was expecting the gap to close and it did but surprising to me was how little the efficiency numbers changed). I was leaning to Drexler but am now back on the fence. (I did like Drexler's defense better than Pierce's and Pierce's better than Gervin's).

Big Men -- Dwight Howard is the best of the modern post players left and would probably be my choice here. Zo had health issues and was always a step behind the best like Shaq/Robinson/Duncan/etc. Willis Reed and Wes Unseld weren't as individually dominant and broke down faster too, while Neil Johnston and Mel Daniels played against inferior competition during their primes and were more limited besides. At PF, McHale didn't rebound as well and doesn't beat out Howard for efficiency, McHale's main argument. Hayes does rebound that well but was inefficient and a jerk.


NOMINATE -- undecided

[Doctor MJ]

As before:

Vote: Steve Nash

Think the case is pretty clear here, but I'm guessing we'll see some arguments here.

Nomination: George Gervin

Gervin still doesn't seem to be on people's minds as a serious candidate. Honestly, no matter what happens people seem to take him a lot less seriously than contemporaries did without giving any explanation for how contemporaries screwed up so bad.

Everyone should really take a look at Gervin before nominating others.

[Fencer reregistered]

Since my candidates didn't win last time:

Elect: Steve Nash
Nominate: Paul Pierce, but I'll switch again to Cowens if the voting goes his way

Nash because he was a spectacular offensive difference maker, and because I'm persuaded by the argument that a PG who plays defense smart and hard isn't much of a defensive liability.

Pierce because of all the many, many reasons to view him favorably. I'm sticking with him over various wing players who may have been better in certain respects, or may have had even less help as they led their teams a couple of rounds into the playoffs.

As for the other choices:

I'm happy with Hondo over Pippen and Baylor over Barry, which seem to be the way other folks are leaning right now. I'll go Hondo over Baylor, however, for longevity, and because Baylor was one of those guys who improved his team by retiring from it. (Had Havlicek played on until he was as useless as Baylor, he would have racked up yet more longevity yet.)

I'll take the top perimeter players on our list over Ewing, who was lumbering. I'm glad Ewing could hit open mid-range shots, but that just says he had the offensive ability of peak Mark Blount or, to be less perjorative and perhaps more fair, Zydrunas Ilgauskas. Defensively I see Ewing as having positive intangibles in the area of tone-setting, and some ability as well, but I don't give him the lion's share of the credit for the Knicks' defensive excellence.

I've been very up and down on Isiah over the years. I don't give that much credit to guys whose sole offensive talent is driving to the hoop and finishing with dunks, so I don't know how much to give him for being the best non-dunking finisher at the rim ever. (I said "at the rim", so please don't mention West or Gervin as counterexamples. ) And back in the day I tended to think of Thomas and Dumars as 1A and 1B. On the other hand, those Pistons teams were GOOD, and I am persuaded by Bill Simmons' argument that Isiah's horrific post-playing career doesn't rule the possibility of him having excellent intangibles while playing. Actually, I give Dumars a lot of intangibles credit for those Pistons too, for remaining a class act while the others strutted, and while Isiah took much of the playing credit Isiah deserved.

I think McHale's excellence is consistently underappreciated. The only reason I haven't nominated him yet is longevity.

The less you guys think of Havlicek, the more you should think of Cowens. That said, there's an interesting supporting-cast comparison to be made between Thomas/Dumars and Hondo/Cowens, for those few people who actually like to indulge in such comparisons.

[Dr Positivity]

Vote Nash
Nominate Cowens

[Fencer reregistered]

And again re Dwight, if you think he's an outstanding post scorer, please consider from an eye test standpoint the post defenders he's scoring against.

[penbeast0]

On the other hand, he's still a hell of a lot more efficient a scorer, both statistically and from an eye test, than Dave Cowens. More intimidating too and arguably a better rebounder though I'd give Cowens the edge in man defense, running the floor, and moving the ball around. Can someone give me a statistical argument for Cowens over Howard?

[ronnymac2]

That's a cool **** picture of Gary Payton. I'm tempted to vote for him because of it...

[Gongxi]

My guys didn't win last thread, but I'm going to wait until voting. Maybe it's a sign, it's not like I felt very convinced anyway.

[lorak]

Players like Pierce are being discussed so why not Manu? He is better player than Hondo, who already had one vote.

[Gongxi]

Maybe if we're talking in Olympic play...

[shawngoat23]

Vote: Elgin Baylor
Nominate: George Gervin

These guys are a bit one-dimensional (with the addition of good positional rebounding, I suppose) for my liking, but I think they did have a big impact for their teams.

[therealbig3]

Vote: Nash
Nomination: Pierce

[Johnny Kilroy]

Scottie Pippen.

[penbeast0]

For Nash/Pierce fans. Do any of you really think ANY NBA GM would rather have either of these two players than Dwight Howard? Really?

(not to say that's the final argument but if Dwyane Wade has been chosen, Howard has enough years to be considered)

[penbeast0]

Also I think Pierce may suffer from the same argument used against Stockton . . . he doesn't seem to have that extra gear he can shift into like his competitiors. People said that Nash > Stockton because Nash could step up his scoring to another level if needed; similarly, Gervin and Drexler just seem much more capable than Pierce of stepping up their games to another level if needed (though why didn't any of them? I never liked this argument much but want to see it out there). Remember when the scoring title came down to the last day of the season between Gervin and David Thompson, Thompson threw in 73 points and Gervin needed around 48 to keep his title and so he just went to work. He ended with 64 and even then it didn't look like he was working that hard. That's the extra gear Pierce may not seem to have.

[Fencer reregistered]

For Nash/Pierce fans. Do any of you really think ANY NBA GM would rather have either of these two players than Dwight Howard? Really?

(not to say that's the final argument but if Dwyane Wade has been chosen, Howard has enough years to be considered)

I think Danny Ainge might well take Nash over Dwight Howard. Center has probably been the position he's invested the least in (salary and draft picks alike) as Celtics' GM. And he is widely believed to have favored Kevin Durant over Greg Oden in the draft.

San Antonio is another team of which similar things are true, although they have the special consideration of already having Duncan. Utah throws a lot of resources into looking for the next John Stockton, less in traditional centers (although they did pay good money to Okur).

As for Pierce vs. Howard -- I'm trying to think of which edition of the Celtics would have been better with Howard at a comparable stage of his career over Pierce, and I'm kind of drawing a blank. Howard is in his prime now and Pierce no longer is, and one would surely trade Pierce and many other assets for Howard at this point. But that's not what you were asking.

[Laimbeer]

self-delete