RealGM Top 100 List #30

[penbeast0]

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days at 10PM EST

Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:

Tracy McGrady/b]

Most Improved (2001)
2x1st Team All-NBA
3x2nd Team All-NBA
2x3rd Team All-NBA
7xAll-Star

[b]Paul Pierce

NBA Champion 2008
2008 NBA Finals MVP
1x All-NBA2ndt Team
3x All-NBA 3rd Team
9x All-STar



Dwight Howard

4x All-NBA 1st Team
1x All-NBA 3rd Team
3x NBA DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR
3x NBA All-Defensive 1st Team
1x NBA All-Defensive 2nd Team
5x All-STar



Jason Kidd

NBA Champion 2011
5x All-NBA 1st Team
1x All-NBA 2nd Team
4x All-Defense 1st Team
5x All-Defense 2nd Team
10x All-Star
Rookie of the Year 1995


George Gervin

5x All-NBA 1st team
2x All-NBA 2nd team
2x All-ABA 2nd Team
12x All-Star (3 ABA, 9 NBA)
All-Star MVP (1980)
Hall of Fame (1996)


Clyde Drexler

* NBA Champion 1994
* 1x 1st All-NBA
* 2x 2nd All-NBA
* 2x 3rd All-NBA
* 10x All-Star


Gary Payton

NBA Champion (2006)
2× All-NBA First Team Selection
5× All-NBA Second Team Selection
2x All-NBA Third Team Selections
NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1996)
9x 1st Team All-Defense
9× All-Star


Artis Gilmore

ABA MVP 1972
ABA Champion 1975
ABA Playoff MVP 1975
5x All-ABA 1st Team
4x ABA All-Defense 1st Team
1x NBA All-Defense 2nd Team
ABA All-Star Game MVP 1974
5xABA All-Star
6xNBA All-Star
ABA Rookie of the Year 1972
Hall of Fame 2011



John Stockton

2x All-NBA 1st Team
6x All-NBA 2nd Team
3x All-NBA 3rd Team
5x All-Defense 2nd Team
10x All-Star
All-Star MVP (1993)
NBA’s All-Time leader in Assists
NBA’s All-Time leader in Steals
Hall of Fame 2009

Rick Barry

* NBA Champion (1975)
* NBA Finals MVP (1975)
* 5× All-NBA First Team Selection
* 1× All-NBA Second Team Selection
* 4× All-ABA 1st Team Selection
* Rookie of the Year (1966)
* NBA All-Star Game MVP (1967)
* 12× All-Star (8 NBA, 4 ABA)
* Voted to the HOF in 1987

[penbeast0]

mysticbb from a list

Vote: John Stockton

Nominate: Reggie Miller

[penbeast0]

Voting Candidates
The PGs are here. John Stockton is efficient and the all time leader in both assists and steals; Gary Payton is the volume scorer and better defender -- I have traditionally favored Payton but the efficiency both in shooting and in A/TO is tough to argue with and some of the strong pro-Stockton posts have me leaning a little to Stockton at the moment.

Among the wings, there are no top defenders although Gervin and Barry were unusually offense oriented. Gervin didn't pass the way all the others did but is the best scorer of the bunch and that's the main attribute for each of them. Advanced numbers support Gervin or Pierce who is surprisingly strong. Accolades indicate that contemporary observers were less impressed with Pierce and support Gervin or Barry as the most dominant. I'm not a huge fan of Gervin as a piece of a championship team (although I never thought Kobe could win twice with that Laker team either) but the RPOY project has him surprisingly strong whereas Barry outside that one great run disappoints especially if you think Nate Thurmond is a top 50 caliber player (Barry did win an ABA title but that was despite him, not because of him, since he went down halfway into the year and the team didn't skip a beat._

REGULAR SEASON – Gervin is the best scorer but doesn’t have the playmaking
Barry 6.6 reb 4.6ast 24.2pts .525ts%
Drexler 6.5reb 5.9ast 21.7pts .548ts%
Gervin 5.8reb 2.8ast 27.1pts .566ts%
Pierce 5.9reb 3.7ast 21.6pts .569ts%


PLAYOFFS – All perform at a similar or even better rate in their playoffs (in 38-41 mpg)
Barry 6.8 reb 4.5ast 28.7pts .518ts%
Drexler 7.1reb 6.4ast 21.0pts .534ts%
Gervin 7.0reb 2.9ast 27.1pts .560ts%
Pierce 6.5reb 4.0ast 21.4pts .559ts%

ADJUSTED (pace adjusted points and efg adjusted ts%) -- Pierce really is helped by the pace adjustment
Barry (league average 110.2) = 21.9adj ppg (.455 league efg) ..575 adj ts%
Drexler (league average 106.5) = 20.2adj ppg (.491 league efg) .556adj ts%
Gervin (league average 109.2) =24.7adj ppg (.482 league efg) .585 adj ts%
Pierce (league average 97.0) = 22.0adj ppg (.485 league efg) .584 adj ts%

ACCOLADES -- Havlicek didn't even have All-Def his whole career
Barry – 5x1st, 1x2nd All-NBA, 4x1st All-ABA, Finals MVP, .592 (4th in 75, 4th in 76)
Drexler – 1x1st, 2x2nd, 2x3rd All-NBA, .778 MVP Shares (2nd in 1992)
Gervin – 5x1st, 2x2nd All-NBA, 2x2nd All-ABA, .991 MVP Shares (2nd in 78 and 79, 3rd in 80)
Pierce – 1980 Finals MVP, 1x2nd, 3x3rd All-NBA, .040 MVP Shares (best is 7th in 09)



I still prefer Artis Gilmore to any of the other big men out there despite the various posts on him (almost all of which ignore his ABA prime to focus on his NBA years). Although his NBA career isn't overwhelming for anything but scoring efficiently, still a 20ppg scorer who it the MOST EFFICIENT PLAYER IN NBA HISTORY is pretty damned intriguing. Dwight Howard is also a damn good candidate here but with peak is about even with Gilmore's ABA (though against somewhat tougher center competition) and Gilmore has a solid, if not equally spectacular, NBA career in addition.

So, it is Stockton's long superconsistent career v. Gervin's one dimensional flash v. Gilmore's ABA peak and later hyperefficient scoring in the NBA. I can see either Gilmore or Stockton here (or Payton for that matter).


Vote: Artis Gilmore

[penbeast0]

For the nomination:

PG -- It is between the great playmaking but inefficient even for his era (especially in playoffs) Bob Cousy, and the young gun with 2 great years but only 5 1/2 years total, Chris Paul. Other candidates include the injury prone Kevin Johnson, the surprisingly efficient Chauncey Billups, and possibly Hal Greer or Lenny Wilkens from the 60s or the purely offensive Nate Archibald or Pete Maravich from the 70s. Of them, I'd lean to Billups for the efficiency, the defense, and for helping kick the superstar laden Shaq/Kobe/KMalone/Payton Lakers in the ass.

Wings -- On the wings, there are still great scorers left . . . I like Alex English's consistency and all around play over the more spectacular but less consistent Bernard King, Mark Aquirre, or David Thompson, the equally consistent but less efficient and lazier defense of Dominique Wilkins or the statistically best Adrian Dantley. Not sure where to rank Ray Allen or Reggie Miller's 3 point skills. Defensivley, I love Moncrief (and Dumars and Bobby Jones have a shot too but Moncrief was the most dominant at his peak) though the shortness of his peak (5 years then a major falloff) is a big issue. Still, we voted Wade in based on the same, and not even consecutive, peak and if I want to win a title, I want Sid over any of the other wings left . . .

Big Men -- The bigs left all have some issue with their games. Zo had health issues and was always a step behind the best like Shaq/Robinson/Duncan/etc. Willis Reed and Wes Unseld weren't as individually dominant and broke down faster too, while Neil Johnston and Mel Daniels played against inferior competition during their primes and were more limited besides. Dave Cowens was an inefficient scorer and not a great help defender though a super hustle guy. Bob McAdoo while his 5 year peak is spectacular, didn't play big man defense and his teams didn't dominate; Bob Lanier and Walt Bellamy had nice numbers but their teams weren't that much either and Detroit with Lanier sucked defensively for 9 of Lanier's 10 prime years which I consider pretty bad. Finally there is Dikembe Mutombo who was a great shot blocker and consistent player for years. Finally, Bill Walton had one great year (not that much better than Wes Unseld's MVP year) but every other year he broke down and left the Portland and San Diego teams which had built around him destroyed until he made another 1 year comeback as a top reserve. I wouldn't choose a one in eight shot at catching lightning in a bottle at the expense of a virtually guaranteed team crash the other seven over most of the above named players.

At PF, McHale didn't rebound as well but has terrific efficiency and very good defense. Hayes does rebound that well but was inefficient and a jerk, and Bobby Jones and Dennis Rodman may be the greatest pair of defensive forwards but Jones, while extremely efficient, didn't score or rebound that much while Rodman had no offense and for 1/2 his career, left his man at times to pad his rebounding stats at the team's expense. All four should be coming up soon though along with most of the mentioned centers, McHale to me has a slight edge over the others because I am an efficiency and defense freak.

So, Billups v. Moncrief v. English v. McHale v. Unseld or Zo . . . All except Pierce are short peak guys, I think Moncrief peaks the highest over a 5 year stretch . . .

NOMINATE -- Sidney Moncrief

[TMACFORMVP]

Vote: Rick Barry
Nominate: Dominique Wilkins

[Fencer reregistered]

Vote: Gary Payton
Nominate: Kevin McHale

List:
The above, followed by:
Vote: John Stockton
Nominate: Dave Cowens

[JordansBulls]

Vote: Clyde Drexler
Nominate: Dominique Wilkins

[therealbig3]

Vote: Rick Barry
Nominate: Kevin McHale

[penbeast0]

How is Dominique Wilkins better than Alex English -- equally proficient scorer, more efficient, more versatile both in terms of ability to score in different ways and in ability to play different offensive roles, better defender? (Other than highlight reels that is)

And the playoffs were as bad or worse in this comparisom of contemporaries. Again, for two volume scorers, efficiency is a key. In Nique's 11 year prime in ATL, they missed the playoffs 3 times and never got out of the second round -- Nique's playoff true shooting percentage for his career is .510 which is poor. English in his 10 year prime in DEN only missed the playoffs in 81, the year he joined the Nuggets then went every year thereafter; they weren't very successful either but did go to the WCF once. And his playoff true shooting percentage is .557, almost 50 point better than Nique's.

-- This is basically voting for Vince Carter over Paul Pierce.

[drza]

How is Dominique Wilkins better than Alex English -- equally proficient scorer, more efficient, more versatile both in terms of ability to score in different ways and in ability to play different offensive roles, better defender? (Other than highlight reels that is)

And the playoffs were as bad or worse in this comparisom of contemporaries. Again, for two volume scorers, efficiency is a key. In Nique's 11 year prime in ATL, they missed the playoffs 3 times and never got out of the second round -- Nique's playoff true shooting percentage for his career is .510 which is poor. English in his 10 year prime in DEN only missed the playoffs in 81, the year he joined the Nuggets then went every year thereafter; they weren't very successful either but did go to the WCF once. And his playoff true shooting percentage is .557, almost 50 point better than Nique's.

-- This is basically voting for Vince Carter over Paul Pierce.

Poor analogy. What puts Pierce over Carter in a lot of people's minds is that

1) Carter is perceived as tissue soft/quitter/poor attitude. This doesn't fit with Nique.
2) Pierce was a key contributor on a team that won a title. That doesn't apply to English
3) The available +/- data suggests that Pierce has been as good or better than Carter since at least 2003

Without those 3 things (i.e. if this comparison was done back in 2007), there's a good chance that Carter WOULD have been voted in over Pierce. And with reasonable justification.

I'm not saying one HAS to vote Nique over English, but I think a more effective argument would be to give a detailed analysis of English's positives rather than relying on a "both guys are high flyers so they must be the same" kind of stretch to tie Nique to Carter.

[penbeast0]

Based on
(1) Nique was a nice guy but didn't work on defense. He was voted by his peers in a TSN poll the player in the NBA who cared least about defense in the 80s. (similar to the Carter is soft/attitude issues)
(2) Nique's playoff efficiency is pretty poor (.507ts% in Atlanta) while English's is almost 50 points better (Playoff contribution)
(3) The available statistical data suggests that English was as good or better than Nique throughout their primes despite Nique's popularity and press

Add to that the eye test factors from having watched them . . . English was harder working defensively, English was more versatile taking on roles from primary post presence to stretch the floor shooter to point forward in different years in Denver . . .

and yes, it's more than just the fact that English and Pierce were quietly outstanding scorers while Nique and Carter were flashy dunkers with lots of highlights and great nicknames.

[Dr Positivity]

Vote is between Barry and Stockton for me and it's not insanely difficult. While I love the ball movement and floor spacing Stockton brings, Barry is also a very good passer and floor spacer while being in a different galaxy as a scorer.

Vote: Rick Barry

Nomination: Dominique Wilkins

A dominant scorer for a long time and as I pointed out in a previous thread, while his TS%s are ok to decent, his individual ORTGs are excellent because of low TOVs. And strong team offenses make me trust those ORTGs.

[FJS]

vote; stockton
nomination; hayes

[ronnymac2]

Before the hurricane carries me away...


Vote: Rick Barry

Nominate: Bob McAdoo

[colts18]

Vote: Rick Barry

[babyjax13]

Vote: Stockton
Nominate: Bob McAdoo

[Fencer reregistered]

For tactical reasons, please flip my voting preferences so that Stockton is first, ahead of Payton.

[fatal9]

Vote: Rick Barry
Nominate: McHale

[ElGee]

Vote: Rick Barry
Nominate: Chris Paul

I'm assuming with the hurricane coming and the last few threads no one is going to move on Payton now, so I'll stick with a Barry vote.

Now, Chris Paul is a name I don't think has really been mentioned at all, but he's right here for me...and I'll take him right now over the other candidates...actually by a pretty comfortable little margin. Why? First, the career:

2007 AS season
2008 weak MVP level season
2009 weak MVP level season
2010 ~AS season
2011 good all-nba level season

Yes, those 5 years, especially with the peak play, vault Paul's career above almost everyone left. I can make an argument for Miller and maybe Hayes ahead...Wilkins and Kevin Johnson are right there too. Howard not far off. But what else for Paul?

Well, he's arguably got the best peak of that lot. Howard is the only one who could challenge that. Then I look at my giant draft board and I have CP3 somewhere in the early 30s...near Frazier, Morning and Howard. I like him on a lot of teams -- he's an astoundingly good ball-dominant or PnR PG. He's a nice defender too.

We like to look at ORtg when we see a ball-dominant, QB-style offensive force...When Paul joined the Hornets they had the worst offense in the league. After some slight improvements, they jumped to 5th (111.5, +4.0) in 2008.

We can look at his team's offense with him on the court at 82games:
2007 109.7 +8.7
2008 116.0 +15.4
2009 113.6 +16.4
2010 110.7 +4.1
2011 110.4 +11.6

Even though it's 08 and 09 people associate with, Paul, including his injury-laden 2010 season, has the 4th-highest APM (Dirk, James, Durant) over the last 2 years using the Rosenbaum model. He's 8th in the Engelmann 6-year run.

Henry Abbot likes to point to Paul's teams as a beacon of success in the clutch. If we're buying that, I'm assuming that's a reflection of Paul's consistency/skill that is fairly indefensible regardless of the scenario or opponent. So his PS numbers shouldn't dip.

In the 08 playoffs, New Orleans had a 113.5 ORtg with Paul (+16.7).
In the 11 playoffs, New Orleans had a 106.7 ORtg with Paul (+22.9).

Sure enough, his ORtg, WS/48 and scoring all increase in those postseasons.

I again want to note that Paul is lifting an anemic offensive squad to right around average...but an APM model would just see the giant number (+22.9) and adjust for opponents+teammates. I have to yet to see any math that accounts for the phenomenon that that is not necessarily better than what Steve Nash did in 2010, which is move Phoenix's playoff offense from 113.1 without him...to 120.4 (+7.3).

[Laimbeer]

Cousy looks like a lost cause for now and headed for a way too low ranking, but it's interesting to see McHale gather momentum here. He's not a bad choice, though I'd probably lean to Cowens and Reed as being more impactful on two title teams.

I really think Stockton belongs in any Top 30, and this is our last slot. His peak probably isn't as far off from Nash as some believed (had some good discussion on this) and his longevity and consistency (individual and team) are a marvel. Barry isn't bad here, I just prefer Stockton.

Vote: Stockton
Nominate: McHale