Kobe's Spurs vs Hakeem's Raptors

[34Dayz]

I am not trying to turn this into a Wade V Kobe only adding my opinion that Kobe's style of play is not as good or efficient vs good defensive teams.

I think time and history have proven this to be true.

This is all going back to my point that I prefer players who shoot a higher % from the field and are still consistent from the line then players who excel from the FT line but are often inconsistent from the Field. Just to show I am not hating, as a huge Shaq fan his inability to atleast hit in the mid 60's from the line always drove me nuts.

@Doormatt : Yes obviously I agree the FT's and trips to the line he obtained in that G7 helped his team.

If we can get back on topic I'd really love to hear some explanations from the people who voted for Kobe's Spurs why they think that team is better.

[Asianiac_24]

So yea other then 03 where he was still playing next to Prime Shaq, he never really went over 27-28ppg on 55-57% TS and usually had around 5/5 boards assists.

So how exactly is Vince who put up 28/5/4 on 55% significantly worse then him?
Dont forget he also has a much lower USG% rate.

Exactly, he's not.

I don't mind saying Peak Kobe is "slightly better" but to act like theirs a huge gap between them is just homerism.

Kobe never went over 27-28 ppg on 55-57 TS% without Shaq? Stop being a troll, did you miss 06 and 07? You know, when Kobe was averaging 35 on 56 TS% and 32 on 58 TS%?

[34Dayz]

Your the one being a T****, I said "with Shaq"

Meaning before the Hand Check rules and when he was playing next to Shaq he never really went higher then 28ppg.

Infact he had only two seasons out of eight where he went above 25ppg.

Kobe had 2 seasons where he surpassed 30ppg Post-Shaq although they came in scoring inflated years (06 especially)

[Vincent 666]

Your the one being a Troll, I said "with Shaq"

Meaning b4 the Hand Check rules and when he was playing next to Shaq he never really went higher then 28ppg.

Infact he had only two seasons out of eight where he went above 25ppg.

Whats your point?

That playing with Shaq negatively affected Kobes scoring numbers?

I think its pretty obvious.

[Vincent 666]

Remember 6/24?

Exactly my point.

You just seem to focus on one bad game and one aspect of that game.

Kobes efficiency and overall playoff numbers from 08-10, along with his teams results, speak for themselves.

And Kobe had about 6 seasons better than peak Carter.

[Asianiac_24]

Actually not having to face swarming defense's focused on stopping you and getting to play mostly on 1v1 coverage makes it much easier for a perimeter guard to having big scoring nights especially playing with a Big like Oneal who scores on a relatively low number of FG Attempts.

Anyway if you think 30/7/6 on 55% after the new Hand Check rules is "Way Better" then 28/5/4 on 55% TS% before the new rules then your simply delusional.

Peak Carter is very very close to Peak Kobe.

He also accomplished that with a lower USG% Rate, if he played 2-3% more mpg and was playing in a season like 06 he'd probably have averaged 32/6/6 or somethin.

So many things wrong with this post.

1. Kobe's numbers without Shaq is much better across the board than with Shaq. This should end all the crap about Kobe playing with Shaq already. Kobe took a statistical hit playing next to him, I'm sure almost every Laker fan out there would agree. Kobe basically traded his stats for wins by playing complimentary basketball to Shaq.

2. 30/7/6 is in 03, and that was BEFORE the rules changed.

3. You also can't just raise someone's USG% rate and expect their numbers to rise at the same rate. Saying Vince could average 32/6/6 is just a baseless claim. It's like me saying Kobe could average 40. There are no proof to prove that claim.

[34Dayz]

Yea playing with a low volume / high effeciency shooter who is arguably the GOAT when it comes to attracting defenders/defensive attention in his Prime really made it more difficult for Kobe to score.

The difference was that when Kobe played with Shaq it was before the hand checking rules and he wasn't capable of scoring the way he did after the rules changed and fouls were called when you breath on a guy. Playing with Shaq probably inflated his scoring numbers (that is arguable) whats not arguable is that it inflated his efficiency.

its not like his scoring numbers really rose much w/o Shaq.

He has basically been a 25-27ppg scoring in the Post-Shaq years and his efficiency has rose like every other guard has with the change in the Hand-Checking rules.

[Vincent 666]

Yea playing with a low volume / high effeciency shooter who is arguably the GOAT when it comes to attracting defenders/defensive attention in his Prime really made it more difficult for Kobe to score.

The difference was that when Kobe played with Shaq it was before the hand checking rules and he wasn't capable of scoring the way he did after the rules changed and fouls were called when you breath on a guy. Playing with Shaq probably inflated his scoring numbers (that is arguable) whats not arguable is that it inflated his efficiency.

No.

When Kobe played with Shaq, he played on the perimeter a lot more and had to facilitate the offense.

When Shaq left, the Lakers moved to Kobe to better positions on the floor for him to score. He got the ball a lot more in the triple threat at the pinch post once Shaq left. Also got a ton more isos and pick and rolls.

[34Dayz]

lol what?

The offense was generally run through Shaq in the post where he facilitaed for Kobe and the rest of his Cast.

Kobe didn't really play much differently after Shaq left he still played from Mid to Long range on the floor and he didn't drive as much as he used to due to Shaq not being downlow to keep the bigs from coming over to bother him.

[Asianiac_24]

Back on topic. Matching up, Tony Parker is obviously a much better player on both ends than Calderon. There is no way Calderon could stop him. Kobe is better than Vince. In this context, I would take Bowen over Mo Pete because of defense. Bosh is better than Horry and Hakeem is better than D-Rob, but that won't do much when Parker and Kobe (especially Parker) could get to the rim at will. Defensively, the Spurs' perimeter defense is much better, and I'm not sure Hakeem is even better on D than D-Rob. Spurs are better on both ends so I'd pick Kobe's Spurs

[34Dayz]

Jose is a much better floor general/leader, he is the better passer and is light years better as a shooter.
I dont see how Tony is gonna be able to use his advantage (scoring in the paint) when Hakeem is downlow waiting to block his shot or contest it + you have bosh who is another long athletic 7 footer who isnt a terrible shot blocker either.

Bowen is a weak link for the Spurs and Hakeems Raps will be able to double Kobe or DRob thanks to his reletively weak offensive skillset.

When Team DRob is reduced to shooting jumpers over possible double teams and Hakeem is destroying DRob in the post what is team Kobe gonna do?

If they double Hakeem he has 4 players to pass out to, 3 who are lights out shooters from anywhere on the court and Bosh who is lights out from mid range and can drain open threes.

[Asianiac_24]

Yea playing with a low volume / high effeciency shooter who is arguably the GOAT when it comes to attracting defenders/defensive attention in his Prime really made it more difficult for Kobe to score.

The difference was that when Kobe played with Shaq it was before the hand checking rules and he wasn't capable of scoring the way he did after the rules changed and fouls were called when you breath on a guy. Playing with Shaq probably inflated his scoring numbers (that is arguable) whats not arguable is that it inflated his efficiency.

its not like his scoring numbers really rose much w/o Shaq.

He has basically been a 25-27ppg scoring in the Post-Shaq years and his efficiency has rose like every other guard has with the change in the Hand-Checking rules.

Um, Kobe's numbers during 96-04 without Shaq is better across the board than with Shaq. Stop making baseless claims.

Kobe's scoring average post Shaq:

05: 28
06: 35
07: 32
08: 28
09: 27
10: 27
11: 25

Playoff scoring average:

06: 28
07: 33
08: 30
09: 30
10: 29
11: 23

Thats hardly a "25-27 ppg scorer". He had 4 seasons above 27 peaking at 35, 2 seasons at 27, and one at 25. In the playoffs he only went under the 25-27 ppg average in 2011.

[Vincent 666]

lol what?

The offense was generally run through Shaq in the post where he facilitaed for Kobe and the rest of his Cast.

Kobe didn't really play much differently after Shaq left he still played from Mid to Long range on the floor and he didn't drive as much as he used to due to Shaq not being downlow to keep the bigs from coming over to bother him.

I think Im going to stop arguing with you.

If you cant see the difference in the roles Kobe played offensively for the teams with and without Shaq, then you obviously didnt watch those games.

Kobe was the Lakers point guards on the early 2000 teams. He was the one who would get the teams in the offense and facilitate the ball.

When Shaq left, that role was given to Odom and it allowed Kobe to play off the ball more and focus on his natural game, scoring.

[34Dayz]

My point stands that he rarely went above 25-27ppg with or without Shaq, his efficiency rose with the rest of the league when the new rules were implemented.

[LALegend]

Jose is a much better floor general/leader, he is the better passer and is light years better as a shooter.
I dont see how Tony is gonna be able to use his advantage (scoring in the paint) when Hakeem is downlow waiting to block his shot or contest it + you have bosh who is another long athletic 7 footer who isnt a terrible shot blocker either.

Bowen is a weak link for the Spurs and Hakeems Raps will be able to double Kobe or DRob thanks to his reletively weak offensive skillset.

When Team DRob is reduced to shooting jumpers over possible double teams and Hakeem is destroying DRob in the post what is team Kobe gonna do?

If they double Hakeem he has 4 players to pass out to, 3 who are lights out shooters from anywhere on the court and Bosh who is lights out from mid range and can drain open threes.

Isn't it common knowledge that you shouldn't double off of consistent 3 point shooters? Why would you leave Bowen wide open? He shot nearly 40% from 3 over his career.

[Asianiac_24]

My point stands that he rarely went above 25-27ppg with or without Shaq, his efficiency rose with the rest of the league when the new rules were implemented.

I just proved to you that Kobe pretty much surpassed the 27 ppg mark almost every year in the playoffs and over half of the regular seasons post-Shaq though.... How does your point still stand I have no idea.

[34Dayz]

I feel comfortable doubling off of Bowen who in his defensive Prime (early 00's) was only a 30-33% 3PT shooter and he isnt a real offensive threat never averaging more then 6-7ppg.

Even if you didnt double off him DRob is gonna have difficulty scoring in the paint vs Hakeem and so are Kobe/Parker so the situation I described still ends up occurring.

[Asianiac_24]

Kobe had no problem destroying Duncan/D-Rob or Duncan himself, not sure why he would have a problem destroying Hakeem and Bosh. If you let players like Kobe/Parker drive to the rim at will, Hakeem and Bosh would be in foul trouble very early. Parker is a FANTASTIC finisher around the rim and a great floater, he would be able to score no problem

[34Dayz]

My point stands that he rarely went above 25-27ppg with or without Shaq, his efficiency rose with the rest of the league when the new rules were implemented.

I just proved to you that Kobe pretty much surpassed the 27 ppg mark almost every year in the playoffs and over half of the regular seasons post-Shaq though.... How does your point still stand I have no idea.

Like I said the change in efficiency is due to the rule changes.

Kobe's Peak PS Scoring AVG
W Shaq : 32PPG
W/O Shaq : 32PPG

[34Dayz]

Kobe had no problem destroying Duncan/D-Rob or Duncan himself, not sure why he would have a problem destroying Hakeem and Bosh. If you let players like Kobe/Parker drive to the rim at will, Hakeem and Bosh would be in foul trouble very early. Parker is a FANTASTIC finisher around the rim and a great floater, he would be able to score no problem

Dumbest post I've ever read.

Duncan/DRob were glued to Shaqs back and Kobe was destroying mediocre perimeter defenders on 1v1 coverage. (Until 02 where Bowen was signed)

Kobe never had to go against a Prime Duncan w/o a Dominant Big to keep him from blocking/defending Kobe in the post.

if a way past his Prime KG and Perkins can shutdown/nerf Kobe I am sure a Prime "Hakeem" and Bosh can easily do the same or far better.

Your also forgetting that VC has always done a good job on containing Kobe and defending him so its not like Kobe is being guarded by some random scrub.