RealGM Top 100 List #33

[penbeast0]

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days at 10PM EST

Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:


Elvin Hayes

Hall of Fame (1990)
NBA Champion (1978)
3× All-NBA First Team Selection
3× All-NBA Second Team Selection
2x All-Defense Second Team Selections
12× All-Star


Dominique Wilkins

Hall of Fame (2006)
1x All-NBA 1st Team
4x All-NBA 2nd Team
2x All-NBA 3rd Team
9x All-Star

Kevin McHale

Hall of Fame 1999
3 NBA Championship Teams
1 All NBA 1st Team
3 All-Defense 1st Team
3 All-Defense 2nd Team
2 Sixth Man of the Year Awards


Tracy McGrady/b]

Most Improved (2001)
2x1st Team All-NBA
3x2nd Team All-NBA
2x3rd Team All-NBA
7xAll-Star

[b]Paul Pierce

NBA Champion 2008
2008 NBA Finals MVP
1x All-NBA2ndt Team
3x All-NBA 3rd Team
9x All-STar



Dwight Howard

4x All-NBA 1st Team
1x All-NBA 3rd Team
3x NBA DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR
3x NBA All-Defensive 1st Team
1x NBA All-Defensive 2nd Team
5x All-STar



Jason Kidd

NBA Champion 2011
5x All-NBA 1st Team
1x All-NBA 2nd Team
4x All-Defense 1st Team
5x All-Defense 2nd Team
10x All-Star
Rookie of the Year 1995


George Gervin

5x All-NBA 1st team
2x All-NBA 2nd team
2x All-ABA 2nd Team
12x All-Star (3 ABA, 9 NBA)
All-Star MVP (1980)
Hall of Fame (1996)


Clyde Drexler

* NBA Champion 1994
* 1x 1st All-NBA
* 2x 2nd All-NBA
* 2x 3rd All-NBA
* 10x All-Star



Artis Gilmore

ABA MVP 1972
ABA Champion 1975
ABA Playoff MVP 1975
5x All-ABA 1st Team
4x ABA All-Defense 1st Team
1x NBA All-Defense 2nd Team
ABA All-Star Game MVP 1974
5xABA All-Star
6xNBA All-Star
ABA Rookie of the Year 1972
Hall of Fame 2011

[JordansBulls]

Vote: Clyde Drexler
Nominate: Bob Cousy

[colts18]

Here is a comparison between Gasol and McHale:

% of team points scored:
Gasol 19.1% (18.8 PPG)
McHale 16.1% (17.9 PPG)


TS%:
Gasol .579 TS% (+4.6%)
McHale .605 TS% (+7.8%)

TRB%:
Gasol: 14.5 (9.1 Reb/game)
McHale: 13.2 (7.3 Reb/game)

AST:
Gasol: 15.9% (3.2 AST)
McHale: 8.1% (1.7 AST)

BLK:
Gasol 3.5%
McHale 3.2%

PER:
Gasol 22.1
McHale 20

WS/148:
Gasol: .179
McHale: .180

Gasol was brilliant in the 09 and 10 title runs. In a combined 46 games, he averaged 19-11-3 with 2 Blks. He had a .610 TS%. He lead the NBA in playoff win shares in 2010. In 09 to 10, he also lead the NBA in playoff WS. He was 2nd behind LeBron in O rtg-D rtg differential. The guy made a huge impact in those 2 title runs (arguably more than Kobe).

[therealbig3]

My vote is between Pierce and T-Mac. I'll stick with Pierce.

Vote: Pierce

My nomination is between KJ, Paul, and Miller. There have been a lot of great Paul and Miller arguments, but no mention of KJ, which is a little weird to me...he was a flat-out beast for 9 years, averaging 20/10 in the regular season, and 21/10 in the playoffs, and he was always scoring on great efficiency. Always ran a great offense, and he was a good defender too.

I'd take a prime KJ over a prime Stockton, Kidd, and Payton.

Still, my nomination isn't set in stone, and I'm beginning to appreciate Paul's career more. McAdoo is also on my radar. But for now:

Nominate: KJ

[penbeast0]

Voting Candidates
The PGs: Kidd's scoring efficiency was terrible through most of his career and I haven't seen anything that makes me think he affects the rest of the offense to a sufficient degree to match up with someone like Gilmore or Gervin.

Among the wings, there are no top defenders although Wilkins and Gervin were unusually offense oriented. Gervin didn't pass the way all the others did but is the best scorer of the bunch and that's the main attribute for each of them. Advanced numbers support Gervin or Pierce who is surprisingly strong. Accolades indicate that contemporary observers were less impressed with Pierce and support Gervin as the most dominant. I'm not a huge fan of Gervin as a piece of a championship team (although I never thought Kobe could win twice with that Laker team either) but the RPOY project has him surprisingly strong whereas guys like TMac got their big numbers on bad teams. Nique is in here too early, he brings little but scoring and that is relatively inefficient.

REGULAR SEASON – Of the top 3, Gervin is the best scorer but doesn’t have the playmaking
Drexler 6.5reb 5.9ast 21.7pts .548ts%
Gervin 5.8reb 2.8ast 27.1pts .566ts%
Pierce 5.9reb 3.7ast 21.6pts .569ts%

PLAYOFFS – All 3 perform at a similar or even better rate in their playoffs (in 38-41 mpg)
Drexler 7.1reb 6.4ast 21.0pts .534ts%
Gervin 7.0reb 2.9ast 27.1pts .560ts%
Pierce 6.5reb 4.0ast 21.4pts .559ts%

ADJUSTED (pace adjusted points and efg adjusted ts%) -- Pierce really is helped by the pace adjustment but that almost certainly overstates his scoring as TrueLAFan has posted about pace adjusting lead scorers http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=344&t=1114378
Drexler (league average 106.5) = 20.2adj ppg (.491 league efg) .556adj ts%
Gervin (league average 109.2) =24.7adj ppg (.482 league efg) .585 adj ts%
Pierce (league average 97.0) = 22.0adj ppg (.485 league efg) .584 adj ts%

ACCOLADES -- No questions contemporaries rated Gervin the highest
Drexler – 1x1st, 2x2nd, 2x3rd All-NBA, .778 MVP Shares (2nd in 1992)
Gervin – 5x1st, 2x2nd All-NBA, 2x2nd All-ABA, .991 MVP Shares (2nd in 78 and 79, 3rd in 80)
Pierce – 1980 Finals MVP, 1x2nd, 3x3rd All-NBA, .040 MVP Shares (best is 7th in 09)



I still prefer Artis Gilmore to any of the other big men out there despite the various posts on him (almost all of which ignore his ABA prime to focus on his NBA years). Although his NBA career isn't overwhelming for anything but scoring efficiently, still a 20ppg scorer who it the MOST EFFICIENT PLAYER IN NBA HISTORY is pretty damned intriguing. Dwight Howard is also a damn good candidate here but with peak not as impressive as Gilmore's ABA peak (though in a tougher environment to dominate as a center) and Gilmore has a solid, if not equally spectacular, NBA career in addition. McHale is no more efficient than Gilmore despite playing on a team with two other great scoring bigs and a weak rebounder (also affected by playing next to Parish and Bird); Hayes has issues with efficiency and personality.

So, for peak, it's Gilmore and Howard with Gilmore having a long solid career that Howard hasn't yet matched (though I think he will given health). Both are best in league centers for a solid 5 year peak (Gilmore in ABA) with incredible athleticism and strong efficienct scoring to go with dominant defense. And, though it's less true today, a dominant two way center of the type Gilmore was in Kentucky has an impact on both ends to the floor that exceeds their numbers.

VOTE Artis Gilmore

[penbeast0]

For the nomination:

PG -- It is between the great playmaking but inefficient even for his era (especially in playoffs) Bob Cousy, and the young gun with 2 great years but only 5 1/2 years total, Chris Paul. Other candidates include the injury prone Kevin Johnson, the surprisingly efficient Chauncey Billups, and possibly Lenny Wilkens from the 60s or the purely offensive Nate Archibald or Pete Maravich from the 70s. Of them, I'd lean to Billups for the efficiency, the defense, and for helping kick the superstar laden Shaq/Kobe/KMalone/Payton Lakers in the ass; if KJ had won with that Phoenix team it would be him easily. Paul and Archibald are superb but only for a short time and that isn't always translating into team success.

Wings -- On the wings, there are still great scorers left . . . I like Alex English's consistency and all around play over the more spectacular but less consistent Bernard King, Mark Aquirre, or David Thompson, or the statistically most efficient Adrian Dantley. Not sure where to rank Hal Greer or Sam Jones's early 60s play and Ray Allen or Reggie Miller's may be the best offensive weapons of them all -- I am open to persuasion on this. Defensively, I love Moncrief (and Dumars and Bobby Jones have a shot too but Moncrief was the most dominant at his peak) though the shortness of his peak (5 years then a major falloff) is a big issue. Still, we voted Wade in based on the same, and not even consecutive, peak . . .

Alex English v. Dominique Wilkins
Longevity peak (10 years with Denver, call it 8 year peak v. 11 years with ATL, call it 9 year peak) even
Scoring Volume -- peak never under 25 peaked at 29.8 v. 8 years in a fast paced balanced motion offense v. peak never under 25 peaked at 30.7 in a slow paced isolation offense featuring him -- even
Scoring Efficiency -- English consistently had a shooting efficiency about 30pts higher -- ENGLISH
Playmaking -- English was a more willing passer with better assist/turnover rates -- ENGLISH
Rebounding -- English started out even or better but slipped while Nique stayed strong -- WILKINS
Defense -- Nique often didn't care, English was above average -- ENGLISH
Intangibles -- Both had reps as classy men and good team leaders -- even
Team Impact -- As offensive stars, the team ORTGs (which ignore pace) averaged 4.0 for Denver during English's 8 year peak, 8.67 for Atlanta during NIque's 9 year peak -- ENGLISH
Accolades -- Contemporaries clearly favored the Human Highlight Film -- WILKINS
To me, both were classy offensive machines but the efficiency, defense and passing give it to English

Big Men -- The bigs left all have some issue with their games. Zo had health issues and was always a step behind the best like Shaq/Robinson/Duncan/etc. Willis Reed and Wes Unseld weren't as individually dominant and broke down faster too, while Neil Johnston and Mel Daniels played against inferior competition during their primes and were more limited besides. Dave Cowens was an inefficient scorer and not a great help defender though a super hustle guy. Bob McAdoo while his 5 year peak is spectacular, didn't play big man defense and his teams didn't dominate; Bob Lanier and Walt Bellamy had nice numbers but their teams weren't that much either and Detroit with Lanier sucked defensively for 9 of Lanier's 10 prime years which I consider pretty bad. Finally there is Dikembe Mutombo who was a great shot blocker and consistent player for years. Finally, Bill Walton had one great year (not that much better than Wes Unseld's MVP year) but every other year he broke down and left the Portland and San Diego teams which had built around him destroyed until he made another 1 year comeback as a top reserve. I wouldn't choose a one in eight shot at catching lightning in a bottle at the expense of a virtually guaranteed team crash the other seven over most of the above named players.

At PF, Bobby Jones and Dennis Rodman may be the greatest pair of defensive forwards but Jones, while extremely efficient, didn't score or rebound that much while Rodman had no offense and for 1/2 his career, left his man at times to pad his rebounding stats at the team's expense. On the offensive end, Amare Stoudamire and Chris Webber just have too many issues to rank about Jones or Rodman.

So, Billups v. Moncrief v. English v. Bobby Jones v. Unseld or Zo . . . For consistent dominance, it is English, for peak I love Moncrief; for now I will go with

NOMINATION: Sidney Moncrief

[penbeast0]

From a list, mysticbb selects

VOTE Artis Gilmore

NOMINATION Reggie Miller

[Dr Positivity]

Vote Pierce

Nominate Bob McAdoo

I'm a flip flopper (for nominees at least)

[drza]

I'm leaning towards my original vote (Gilmore) and nomination (Mourning) from last thread. That said, the conversation last thread has me seriously considering Iverson and I'm open to Paul. I'm also still pretty interested in getting Rodman into the mix, and Colts may have a point about Gasol. And the Reed/Cowens/Unseld/McAdoo/Walton 60s/70s big man MVP crew is still out there as well. In fact, are the 70s bigs, Iverson and Cousy the only eligible MVPs not yet voted in (let alone nominated)?

[Fencer reregistered]

Here is a comparison between Gasol and McHale:

% of team points scored:
Gasol 19.1% (18.8 PPG)
McHale 16.1% (17.9 PPG)


TS%:
Gasol .579 TS% (+4.6%)
McHale .605 TS% (+7.8%)

TRB%:
Gasol: 14.5 (9.1 Reb/game)
McHale: 13.2 (7.3 Reb/game)

AST:
Gasol: 15.9% (3.2 AST)
McHale: 8.1% (1.7 AST)

BLK:
Gasol 3.5%
McHale 3.2%

PER:
Gasol 22.1
McHale 20

WS/148:
Gasol: .179
McHale: .180

Gasol was brilliant in the 09 and 10 title runs. In a combined 46 games, he averaged 19-11-3 with 2 Blks. He had a .610 TS%. He lead the NBA in playoff win shares in 2010. In 09 to 10, he also lead the NBA in playoff WS. He was 2nd behind LeBron in O rtg-D rtg differential. The guy made a huge impact in those 2 title runs (arguably more than Kobe).

Defense: Big edge for McHale.

Offensive rebounding: You're welcome to check the stats, but I'd think they favor McHale, or would at worst be a wash.

Defensive rebounding: As I've discussed at length, rebounding next to Robert Parish and Larry Bird is a lot different than rebounding next to, say, Lamar Odom and Ron Artest. It isn't just that the other two guys excelled at rebounding. It's also that both excelled at outlet passing, and one of the two excelled at leading the break as well.

So McHale's job was to run the floor while the other guys corralled the ball. And this was serious, because the Celtics were a serious fast-breaking team, something that gets forgotten a bit because of the fast break greatness that was the Showtime Lakers.

[Fencer reregistered]

Nominate: Cousy, same as last time

List: Pierce, who I first nominated over 10 slots ago.

People might do well to repost their arguments on either side of Pierce/Drexler. I found the ones favoring Pierce to be more persuasive, but good points were made on both sides.

[therealbig3]

Also, drza made a point about "putting pressure on a defense", and I think it's something to definitely keep in mind. In fact, because of that point, I've been thinking more and more about Iverson and Miller, and I honestly have a hard time choosing between Miller, Paul, and Iverson, and at least for me, KJ is in that group too. I like KJ, because I think he's the closest thing to a Chris Paul with an extended career, who would easily be ranked ahead of Miller and Iverson.

I feel like KJ is viewed as a 3rd tier PG by most, not really in the discussion with guys like Payton, Stockton, Kidd, and Isiah (I understand Paul and Nash being considered on a different level), and I guess I'm just wondering why that's the case. It looks like he had a big impact, he had great box score stats, he was a good playoff performer, and there really wasn't a weakness to his game. He was better at running an offense than Payton, Stockton, Isiah, and definitely Kidd, and he was healthy enough to play in the playoffs every year.

[Fencer reregistered]

In fact, are the 70s bigs, Iverson and Cousy the only eligible MVPs not yet voted in (let alone nominated)?

I think that's the case.

Another guy who could be in the mix is Robert Parish. He had exceptional longevity, fine defense, fine rebounding, excellent scoring efficiency, and excellent outlet passing.

One knock is that his efficiency was a lot higher when he was on a stacked team than at the beginning and end of his career, and the eye test confirms that he got his high-percentage shots in many cases from good ball movement.

[pancakes3]

vote: Drexler
nominate: Unseld

[penbeast0]

Also, drza made a point about "putting pressure on a defense", and I think it's something to definitely keep in mind. In fact, because of that point, I've been thinking more and more about Iverson and Miller, and I honestly have a hard time choosing between Miller, Paul, and Iverson, and at least for me, KJ is in that group too. I like KJ, because I think he's the closest thing to a Chris Paul with an extended career, who would easily be ranked ahead of Miller and Iverson.

I feel like KJ is viewed as a 3rd tier PG by most, not really in the discussion with guys like Payton, Stockton, Kidd, and Isiah (I understand Paul and Nash being considered on a different level), and I guess I'm just wondering why that's the case. It looks like he had a big impact, he had great box score stats, he was a good playoff performer, and there really wasn't a weakness to his game. He was better at running an offense than Payton, Stockton, Isiah, and definitely Kidd, and he was healthy enough to play in the playoffs every year.

What puts more pressure on a defense, a quick slashing ball dominating but inefficient guard or a 7'3 superefficient low post big man who is too tall and strong to guard with single coverage. It seems to me that offensively, Gilmore puts more pressure on a defense -- now whether his guards (Reggie Theus, William Holland, Ricky Sobers, etc.) ever learned to feed the post properly is a different issue . . . . but you can't leave him alone or even in pure single coverage, you always have to be ready to drop a second man down or you will be destroyed . . . like playing Dwight Howard today (only Dwight's coach runs an offense that takes more advantage of it).

[penbeast0]

In fact, are the 70s bigs, Iverson and Cousy the only eligible MVPs not yet voted in (let alone nominated)?

I think that's the case.

Another guy who could be in the mix is Robert Parish. He had exceptional longevity, fine defense, fine rebounding, excellent scoring efficiency, and excellent outlet passing.

One knock is that his efficiency was a lot higher when he was on a stacked team than at the beginning and end of his career, and the eye test confirms that he got his high-percentage shots in many cases from good ball movement.

Well, that and 1950s off the top of my head.

[Dr Positivity]

Derrick Rose isn't in yet either

[ElGee]

vote: Clyde Drexler
nominate: Chris Paul

Same spiel as last thread for the nomination: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1130409&start=30#p28810259

As for the vote, there are so many darn people behind Drexler already voted in, this makes this a reaaallllly easy vote for me. Fatal had a good post on Clyde. It's hard for me to see any argument for pretty much anyone else here. I'd need a huge shift on Drexler AND another player...and although I've been here before with guys like Karl Malone, I'm not sure how people see his career and talent and end up with other players. *shrug*

@Penbeast. How can you say denigrate Tracy McGrady for his performance on bad teams but then support Adrian Dantley. It makes no sense to me.

McGrady's teams, on paper, were a nightmare. Their performance without him, whether in.out or on/off was terrible. He HELPED them tremendously. He had huge impact. He was acknowledged as a bona fide stud at the wing for years.

Dantley's teams, on paper, weren't a nightmare. Their performance without him, using in/out or full season shifts, was often BETTER without him! He kept getting traded. He was benched more than once (I believe). He seemed to have little impact to even negative impact, depending on the period. He was never acknowledged as a bona fide stud.

[lorak]

vote: Drexler
nominate: CP

[FJS]

vote: drexler
Nomination: McAdoo