Post#3 » by penbeast0 » Tue Sep 6, 2011 3:38 am
For the nomination:
PG -- It is between the great playmaking but inefficient even for his era (especially in playoffs) Bob Cousy, and the young gun with 2 great years but only 5 1/2 years total, Chris Paul. If someone can do a comp to show me Cousy was actually reasonably efficient either individually or in terms of team offense in the period from 58-62, I'll vote for him easily, otherwise . . . Other candidates include Kevin Johnson, the surprisingly efficient Chauncey Billups, and possibly Lenny Wilkens from the 60s or the purely offensive Nate Archibald or Pete Maravich from the 70s. Paul and Archibald are superb but only for a short time and that isn't always translating into team success. Posts by therealbig3 made me look closer at KJ, he was injured almost every year but not for the playoffs. Combine that with his good scoring and playmaking and he's my PG choice.
Wings -- On the wings, there are still great scorers left . . . I like Alex English's consistency and all around play over the more spectacular but less consistent Bernard King, Mark Aquirre, or David Thompson, or the statistically most efficient Adrian Dantley. Not sure where to rank Hal Greer or Sam Jones's early 60s play and Ray Allen or Reggie Miller's may be the best offensive weapons of them all -- I am open to persuasion on this and would be willing to support Ray or Reggie instead of English for career. Defensively, I love Moncrief (and Dumars and Bobby Jones have a shot too but Moncrief was the most dominant at his peak) though the shortness of his peak (5 years then a major falloff) is a big issue. Still, we voted Wade in based on the same, and not even consecutive, peak . . .
Alex English v. Dominique Wilkins
Longevity peak (10 years with Denver, call it 8 year peak v. 11 years with ATL, call it 9 year peak) even
Scoring Volume -- peak never under 25 peaked at 29.8 v. 8 years in a fast paced balanced motion offense v. peak never under 25 peaked at 30.7 in a slow paced isolation offense featuring him -- even
Scoring Efficiency -- English consistently had a shooting efficiency about 30pts higher -- ENGLISH
Playmaking -- English was a more willing passer with better assist/turnover rates -- ENGLISH
Rebounding -- English started out even or better but slipped while Nique stayed strong -- WILKINS
Defense -- Nique often didn't care, English was above average -- ENGLISH
Intangibles -- Both had reps as classy men and good team leaders -- even
Team Impact -- As offensive stars, the team ORTGs (which ignore pace) averaged 4.0 for Denver during English's 8 year peak, 8.67 for Atlanta during NIque's 9 year peak -- ENGLISH
Accolades -- Contemporaries clearly favored the Human Highlight Film -- WILKINS
To me, both were classy offensive machines but the efficiency, defense and passing give it to English
Big Men -- The bigs left all have some issue with their games. Zo had health issues and was always a step behind the best like Shaq/Robinson/Duncan/etc. Willis Reed and Wes Unseld weren't as individually dominant and broke down faster too, while Neil Johnston and Mel Daniels played against inferior competition during their primes and were more limited besides. Bob McAdoo while his 5 year peak is spectacular, didn't play big man defense and his teams didn't dominate; Bob Lanier and Walt Bellamy had nice numbers but their teams weren't that much either and Detroit with Lanier sucked defensively for 9 of Lanier's 10 prime years which I consider pretty bad. Finally there is Dikembe Mutombo who was a great shot blocker and consistent player for years. Finally, Bill Walton had one great year (not that much better than Wes Unseld's MVP year) but every other year he broke down and left the Portland and San Diego teams which had built around him destroyed until he made another 1 year comeback as a top reserve. I wouldn't choose a one in eight shot at catching lightning in a bottle at the expense of a virtually guaranteed team crash the other seven over most of the above named players. Of them I lean to Reed (peak) or Unseld (homer pick).
At PF, Bobby Jones and Dennis Rodman may be the greatest pair of defensive forwards but Jones, while extremely efficient, didn't score or rebound that much while Rodman had no offense and for 1/2 his career, left his man at times to pad his rebounding stats at the team's expense. On the offensive end, Amare Stoudamire and Chris Webber just have too many issues to rank above Jones or Rodman.
Let me explain why I am voting for Sidney Moncrief here. His peak is short, only 5 full years from 82-86 and those years coincided with the peak years of both the Bird/McHale/Parish/DJ Celtics and of the Moses/Erving/Toney/Cheeks Sixers (as well as the Showtime Lakers) so he never made it past the ECF but in those peak years he led Milwaukee, a Don Nelson coached team with no consistent center, to be one of the best defensive and an above average offensive team. Individually he was a consistent 20ppg scorer with excellent passing and rebounding skills who is widely considered the greatest man-up perimeter defender to ever play winning the first two ever awarded DPOY awards in this 5 year stretch.
Milwaukee's leaguewide ratings, even in those years of great dynastic teams, were
82 Moncrief 6.7reb/4.8ast/19.8pts on .601ts% incredible for a guard before wide use of the 3pt shot
9th in offense, 1st! in defense -- Marques Johnson was the second star only scoring 16ppg, center was good offense, mediocre defensive aging Bob Lanier, the other biggest minutes were PG Quinn Buckner (excellent defender) and Brian Winters (offense only pure jump shooter)
93 Moncrief 5.8reb/3.9ast/22.5pts on .602ts% 1st DPOY award (82 was actually better defense)
10th in offense, 6th in defense -- Marques Johnson had a great year, Alton Lister replaced Bob Lanier
94 Moncrief 6.7reb/4.5ast/20.9pts on .591ts% 2nd DPOY award
12th in offense, 2nd in defense -- Lanier came back to split time with Lister and Marques's last year
95 Moncrief 5.4reb/5.2ast/21.7pts on .594ts%
6th in offense, 2nd in defense -- Terry Cummings took over for Marques as the other star, Lister split time with Randy Breuer at center, 3pt specialist Craig Hodges split time with Paul Pressey and Junion Bridgeman
96 Moncrief 4.6reb/4.9ast/20.2pts on .604ts%
4th in offense, 2nd in defense -- Breuer became the starter still splitting time, Pressey as point forward
Moncrief was an incredible two way player. In a slightly weaker era, he might have led his team to one or two championships like a Chauncey Billups or Isiah Thomas but the one year they beat the Celtics (with great performance by Sid), they then ran into the "fo fo fo" Sixer team. But he was the clearly acknowledged leader of Milwaukee teams and led them to terrific defensive performances despite average defensive big men (Cummings doesn't have a good rep but is underrated but before him the starter was journeyman Mickey Johnson though Don Nelson liked to use Marques Johnson as PF and play 3 guards more than using Johnson).
Comparing Sidney to Chris Paul since he’s the one getting the most support over their 5 year peaks. (Answer to therealbig3 claiming Paul both outscored and creates far better offense than Moncrief)
Volume – Paul averaged 19.2ppg, Moncrief averaged 21.0ppg (and in a more balanced attack) Efficiency – Paul averaged .575, Moncrief .598ts%
And Moncrief did it on a much more balanced team which means he didn’t have as many opportunities as Paul (on the other hand he didn’t face as many defenses stacked against him).
Playoffs – Moncrief made it every year in his peak, Paul only 3 out of the 5 (and only won one series so his team impact is more questionable).
Volume – Paul 21.9, Moncrief 18.8 so they did switch volumes in the postseason
Efficiency – Paul .577, Moncrief .573ts%
Moncrief does fall off in the playoffs (from facing Dennis Johnson and Maurice Cheeks every year?) but only down to Paul’s level of efficiency and not much behind him in scoring . . . and his team had more success over the 5 year peak than Paul’s, beating the Bird/McHale/Parish/DJ Celtics.
Paul does have much better assist numbers since he is a ball dominant PG rather than an off the ball SG, but are his offenses really better? Over the last 5 years, the NO offense has been the 15th ranked offense in the league with only 1 top 10 year; Milwaukee was the 8th ranked offense in Moncrief’s period (and improved after Terry Cummings and Randy Breuer replaced Marques Johnson and Bob Lanier so it probably isn’t star power). Paul doesn’t seem to have a Steve Nash type effect here.
And defensively, Moncrief, the 2 time DPOY is considerably better than pretty much any other guard although I really like Paul’s defense. I love Chris Paul, but Moncrief was the better player.
NOMINATION: Sidney Moncrief
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
