RealGM Top 100 List #61

[penbeast0]

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days -- Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:
Vince Carter

1x All-NBA 2nd team
1x All-NBA 3rd team
8x All-Star
Rookie of Year

Nate Thurmond

Hall of Fame 1985
2x All-Def 1st Team
3x All-Def 2nd Team

Penny Hardaway

2x 1st team All-NBA
1x 3rd team All-NBA
4x All-Star

Robert Parish

Hall of Fame 2003
1x 2nd team All-NBA
1x 3rd team All-NBA
4x NBA Champion (once as deep bench with Bulls)
9x All-Star

Pau Gasol

1x All-NBA 2nd team
2x All-NBA 3rd team
2x NBA Champion
4x All-Star

Bernard King

2x All-NBA 1st team
1x All-NBA 2nd team
1x All-NBA 3rd team
4x All-Star

Marques Johnson

1x All-NBA 1st team
2x All-NBA 2nd team
5x All-STar

Dennis Rodman

2x All-NBA 3rd Team
5x NBA Champion
2x Defensive Player of the Year
7x All-Defense 1st Team
1x All-Defense 2nd Team
2x All-Star


Grant Hill

1x 1st Team All-NBA
3x 2nd Team All-NBA
7x All-Star
Rookie of the Year

[penbeast0]

On the wings we have Grant, Marques, Penny, and Vince . . . of them, Bernard King was the most dominant, Grant Hill the most well rounded, and Vince had the longest career. If anyone wants to put together a good comp, I might change my mind but right now I rank them:
1 GHill
2 BKing
3 VCarter
4 MJohnson
5 AHardaway


For the bigs, Parish has the consistency, Rodman the rings, and Thurmond the best defense, but Pau Gasol has the best all-around game.
1 Gasol
2 Rodman
3 Parish
4 Thurmond

Hill and Gasol are both well rounded players but Gasol has the rings which set him apart.

VOTE Pau Gasol

[penbeast0]

Point Guards -- I like Billups's consistency and efficiency, not up for any of the others
Chauncey Billups
Nate Archibald
Tim Hardaway
Mark Price
Dennis Johnson ? Mookie Blaylock?

Shooting Guards -- Not really feeling any of the top guys yet but here's who I'm thinking about
David Thompson
Joe Dumars
Bill Sharman ?
Chris Mullin
Hal Greer

Shooting Forward -- a top of great candidate left, in no particular order
Adrian Dantley
Billy Cunningham
James Worthy
Shawn Marion
Connie Hawkins

Power Forward -- I really can't see Shawn Kemp with all the outstanding forwards left, he was immature, foul prone, had a low basketball IQ and really wasn't that dominant. Heck, I'd think long and hard about bangers like Paul Silas or Buck Williams before Kemp. Schayes had all sorts of awards but like Cousy, I just don't see the numbers standing up although he was the greatest free throw shooting big ever -- better than Dirk or Bird even. Elton Brand was injured several times and was more a big numbers on weak teams guy but I'd consider him -- but I'd still rather have a consistent two way presence like Bobby Jones, Larry Nance, or Shawn Marion:

Bobby Jones
Jerry Lucas
Larry Nance
Amare Stoudamire
Terry Cummings

Centers: starting to run a little short here
Dikembe Mutombo
Mel Daniels
----------?
Walt Bellamy
Neil Johnston
Yao Ming

NOMINATE BOBBY JONES
-- arguably the most consistent and versatile defender outside of the dominant centers ever . . . 10 1st team All-Defense in his first 10 years is unmatched by anyone, ever and an efficient and heady offensive player with great intangibles.

After that . . .
2. Chauncey Billups?
3. OPEN TO ARGUMENTS

[penbeast0]

From Lists:

Vote:
Bernard King -- ronnymac2

Nominate:
Dolph Schayes -- Fencer
Billy Cunningham -- ronnymac2

[therealbig3]

Vote: Marques Johnson

Really don't know who to nominate at this point, Worthy really is the next person on my list at this point, but only because I haven't really gone this far on my list before. Mutombo intrigues me, and I'd be interested to hear what people think about Mutombo vs Worthy.

Elton Brand is interesting too...does he really have any noticeable negatives? I understand his teams weren't really successful and only had one playoff appearance in his prime...but can you blame him? The Clippers were the laughingstock of the league for a while, and Brand was the only reason why they got any attention at all.

[lorak]

vote: Marques
nominate: Bobby Jones

[lukekarts]

We're at a stage where Ginobili and Pau Gasol are getting votes, so why not Worthy? His career, in terms of accolades and Finals MVP, is comparable, if not better. His individual production is comparable (if we say loosely that Worthy was 20/5/5, similar to Manu, and Pau 18/10/2). One could argue his individual peak - some magnificent games including 36/16/10 in game 7 of the Finals - is better. All the way back to his days in college where he lead his team to the NCAA Championship and was named as Most Outstanding Player, he's a proven winner. He made the Hall of Fame, the NBA Top 50.

Surely this is the point where a perennial 2nd/3rd option should be considered?

[lukekarts]

VOTE: Pau Gasol
Nominate: James Worthy

[JordansBulls]

Vote: Penny Hardaway
Nominate: Shawn Kemp

[drza]

I was a drive-by voter last thread, and though I hope I can get back in this thread this is continuing a REALLY crazy month for me at work. As the reality is hitting, I'm starting to think that my boss was insane for assigning all of this to me (either that, or I was insane for not realizing what I was getting myself into and not being able to say 'no'). Either way, just wanted to let you guys know that I'm not purposefully abstaining from the conversation, just rarely have the time to engage.

Vote: Pau Gasol
Nominate: Dikembe Mutombo

(if had more time, would love to really explore Deke vs Webber vs Worthy)

[FJS]

Marques
and
Worthy

[FJS]

Why Marques?

He was for 9 years a reliable player, around 20 ppg, pretty efficient with great FG%. Great overall play. Good rebounder, passer, stealing.

Carter had better individual teams, but he only make playoffs 2 times as the main guy and he never seemed to care about the game since his last 2 years in Toronto. He still produced a lot, but you didn't fear him.

[ElGee]

vote: Marques Johnson
nominate: Chris Webber

Again I'll throw Webber's name out there. Not sure he'd me my next nominee if pressed but I lost about 25 spots on my list when my HD fried recently and haven't repopulated it. Still, Webber is a polarizing player who should be discussed soon. I will probably change my stance on him one way or another when it's all said and done.

[ElGee]

I also want to add that the discussion of "rings" and "accolades" in the previous for people as "arguments" for their votes was particularly frustration. That's clearly not an argument, nor was it supposed to even really be mentioned based on the criteria of this project.

[Dr Positivity]

Vote Pau Gasol

Nominate Carmelo Anthony

[penbeast0]

Possibly even more polarizing than Webber, can he really be said to be better than Amare? Amare is a much better scorer, both volume and efficiency -- particularly when you take Webber's really weak foul draw into account. They were both below average big man defenders (Webber better), and average at best rebounders (again, edge to Webber); Webber is a MUCH better passer. Amare is a better teammate and has far less of a record of choking in the clutch. Amare also has better accolades and no one is talking about him.

Yet no one has brought up Amare who was/is better than Webber.

[nykballa2k4]

Possibly even more polarizing than Webber, can he really be said to be better than Amare? Amare is a much better scorer, both volume and efficiency -- particularly when you take Webber's really weak foul draw into account. They were both below average big man defenders (Webber better), and average at best rebounders (again, edge to Webber); Webber is a MUCH better passer. Amare is a better teammate and has far less of a record of choking in the clutch. Amare also has better accolades and no one is talking about him.

Yet no one has brought up Amare who was/is better than Webber.

Amare played in a different system. Honestly, I would trade Amare in his prime for Cwebb in his prime. Webbers game was more skilled imo, but Amare is getting there

[therealbig3]

I still haven't really seen any evidence for Webber at this point.

Outside of his passing, does he really bring anything of great value? I feel like his poor TS% will be somehow dismissed in an effort to paint him as a good scorer, but he's around 50% most years, and he was terrible at not only drawing fouls, but converting at the line as well. If you're going to be like that, you better hit your FGs at a 55-60% clip, which he didn't. And it's not like he didn't have offensive players around him to take the pressure off. His defense wasn't very good, his rebounding was ok, and yes, his passing was very good. But there's a lot of negatives there. I don't see him excelling at anything, other than passing.

And I haven't seen anything that points to him having a big impact, in fact, I see the opposite.

I don't really understand his case over someone like Worthy or Mutombo.

[penbeast0]

Not to mention his attitude which was whiny and self serving at best.

It wouldn't surprise me to find out that RAPM studies or similar advanced things I don't know much about show Vlade Divac to be the more valuable big in Sacramento.

[therealbig3]

And...Webber's durability is WEAK.

From 94-03, Webber averaged less than 60 games a season. The least amount of games he missed was 6, and in 8 of those seasons, he missed at least 10 games a season.