RealGM Top 100 List #69

Moderators: PaulieWal, Doctor MJ, Clyde Frazier, penbeast0, trex_8063

penbeast0
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Posts: 28,445
And1: 8,679
Joined: Aug 14, 2004
Location: South Florida
 

RealGM Top 100 List #69 

Post#1 » by penbeast0 » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:44 am

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days -- Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:

Chauncey Billups
Image
1x ALL-NBA 2nd
2x ALL-NBA 3rd
2x All-Defense 2nd
Finals MVP 1987
NBA CHampion
5x All-STar

James Worthy
Image
Hall of Fame 2003
2x NBA 3rd Team
Finals MVP 88
3x NBA Champion
7x All-Star
Tiny Archibald
Image
Hall of Fame 1991
3x All-NBA 1st team
2x All-NBA 2nd team
NBA Champion in Boston 1981
6x All-Star


Bobby Jones
Image
1x All-ABA 2nd team
NBA Champion 1983
10x All-Defense 1st team (2x in ABA)
1x All-Defense 2nd team
Sixth Man of the Year 1983
5x All-Star

Billy Cunningham
Image
Hall of Fame 1986
ABA MVP 1973
3x All-NBA 1st team
1x All-NBA 2nd team
1x All-ABA 1st team
NBA Champion 1967
5x All-Star


Dikembe Mutombo Mpolondo Mukamba Jean-Jacques Wamutombo
Image
1x All-NBA 2nd Team
2x All-NBA 3rd Team
4x Defensive Player of the Year
4x All-Defense 1st Team
3x All-Defense 2nd Team
8x All-Star

Vince Carter
Image
1x All-NBA 2nd team
1x All-NBA 3rd team
8x All-Star
Rookie of Year

Grant Hill
Image
1x 1st Team All-NBA
3x 2nd Team All-NBA
7x All-Star
Rookie of the Year
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
penbeast0
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Posts: 28,445
And1: 8,679
Joined: Aug 14, 2004
Location: South Florida
 

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69 

Post#2 » by penbeast0 » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:46 am

VOTE:

We have a7' shotblocking defensive anchor in Dikembe Mutombo -- efficient but with poor hands. At the other end of the spectrum we have PG Chauncey Billups who is super efficient and decent defensively.

Some combo forwards with versatile 2 ways games. From the 60/70s we have Billy Cunningham who came up as a scorer but who added defense and playmaking for a very valuable all around player. From the 70s/80s we have Bobby Jones who is the only player to ever get named 1st team All-Defense 10 times . . . in his 1st 10 seasons (his last year he was only selected as 2nd team) and played a variety of roles in his career -- he was the star of Denver's best record in either league team in 75, defended both forwards and center in Denver then went to Philly where he was a combo foward who also defended guards and shifted to 6th man (winning SMOY) when asked to give bench help to that star-studded starting lineup (Moses, DrJ, Toney, Cheeks) and was a winner everywhere he went. The 80s gave us James Worthy of the show time Lakers and a finals MVP. Finally, we have Grant Hill, an all-around star of 00s in Detroit before his injury.

For explosive scoring, we have Vince Carter, half-man/half-amazing and Nate "Tiny" Archibald. Both had great individual years with some later team success though Tiny's team success came after he quit being a "star"

No real strong feeling here. I will go with Bobby Jones for the defense . . .
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
penbeast0
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Posts: 28,445
And1: 8,679
Joined: Aug 14, 2004
Location: South Florida
 

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69 

Post#3 » by penbeast0 » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:54 am

Point Guards -- I like Billups's consistency and efficiency, not up for any of the others
Tim Hardaway
Mark Price
Dennis Johnson ? Mookie Blaylock? Louie Dampier?

Shooting Guards --
Joe Dumars
Bill Sharman ?
Chris Mullin
Hal Greer
David Thompson

Shooting Forward -- a lot of great candidate left, in no particular order
Adrian Dantley
Shawn Marion
Connie Hawkins
Cliff Hagan
Jamaal Wilkes?

Power Forward --
Jerry Lucas
Larry Nance
Amare Stoudamire/Terry Cummings/Elton Brand
Not quite ready for Chris Webber or Shawn Kemp yet (two guys I didn't like their games but talented enough to start getting a look here over the Paul Silas/Buck Williams types that would be the main alternatives)

Centers: starting to run a little short here
Mel Daniels
----------?
Walt Bellamy
Neil Johnston
Yao Ming

Looking at the candidates -- Billups is the kind of guy I tend to rank higher than most -- very consistent two way player who wasn't a superstar but is the kind of guy who makes winning teams win. Same for Dumars and Sharman -- I'd love to get a comp of them from someone. I'd lean to Adrian Dantley among the scorers, a player with that caliber of scoring at those ridiculous efficiencies -- there must be a way to build a top team around him if you could do it with the less effective Allen Iverson. Lucas and Nance are the best PF types (and probably over Shawn Marion too) for consistency and star quality over time. Jerry Lucas wasn't a great defender but he was the other main star on those great Cinncinnati offenses with his rebounding and outside game allowing Oscar to work his magic inside -- then Lucas turned around and helped the defense and passing oriented Knicks win another title with Willis Reed injured and ineffective. He was a great rebounder, a very efficient outside scoring big, and a terrific passer who gets less love than his numbers because of his Asberger's type personality but one of the best for a long time. Finally, Mel Daniels won TWO MVP's and 3 championships in the ABA -- yes it was an inferior league and his career wasn't that long but it was better ball than the NBA in the 50s and he was basically Alonzo Mourning as a player with better rebounding but less shotblocking -- similar offense and attitude. He'd be a star even today though probably not a 20ppg scorer.

For the modern game, I would go with Jerry Lucas -- a stretch big with great IQ who is also a top rebounder -- basically Kevin Love with a 10 year peak; for impact, Mel Daniels who was a stronger, less vertical version of Zo.

For now, NOMINATE JERRY LUCAS
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
User avatar
Dr Positivity
RealGM
Posts: 59,840
And1: 15,536
Joined: Apr 29, 2009
       

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69 

Post#4 » by Dr Positivity » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:56 am

Damn, that's early for Billups... Is he really going to make the list before Melo??? They played on the same team and the people who said Billups is better stopping talking after the playoffs...
User avatar
ronnymac2
RealGM
Posts: 10,890
And1: 4,881
Joined: Apr 11, 2008
   

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69 

Post#5 » by ronnymac2 » Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:10 am

Vote: Vince Carter

Nominate: Adrian Dantley
Pay no mind to the battles you've won
It'll take a lot more than rage and muscle
Open your heart and hands, my son
Or you'll never make it over the river
JordansBulls
RealGM
Posts: 60,446
And1: 5,314
Joined: Jul 12, 2006
Location: HCA (Homecourt Advantage)

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69 

Post#6 » by JordansBulls » Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:29 am

Vote: Grant Hill
Nominate: Shawn Kemp
Image
"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
- Michael Jordan
lorak
Head Coach
Posts: 6,317
And1: 2,231
Joined: Nov 23, 2009

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69 

Post#7 » by lorak » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:05 am

vote: Hill
nominate: Dantley
ElGee
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,041
And1: 1,202
Joined: Mar 08, 2010
Contact:

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69 

Post#8 » by ElGee » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:23 am

WHY Adrian Dantley?
Check out and discuss my book, now on Kindle! http://www.backpicks.com/thinking-basketball/
therealbig3
RealGM
Posts: 28,662
And1: 15,095
Joined: Jul 31, 2010

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69 

Post#9 » by therealbig3 » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:46 am

Vote: Vince Carter
Nominate: David Thompson
User avatar
-Kees-
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,155
And1: 52
Joined: Jan 16, 2011
   

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69 

Post#10 » by -Kees- » Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:26 am

VOTE: Grant Hill
NOMINATE: Adrian Dantley
bastillon
Head Coach
Posts: 6,914
And1: 613
Joined: Feb 13, 2009
Location: jumpin both feet on the Jeremy Lin bandwagon

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69 

Post#11 » by bastillon » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:07 pm

I'd like to make a case for James Worthy. first things first, Elgee's fantastic post:

I've been looking into James Worthy, someone who has always been an interesting case for obvious reasons. (Winning AND clutch bias in a big market.) Worthy's In/Out Runs:

Worthy 1986 (7g) 9.6 to 8.6
Worthy 1988 (7g) 3.4 to 6.1
Worthy 1992 (28g) -1.1 to -1.5
[Worthy 86-88 (14g) 6.5 to 7.4]

They didn't have Cap in two of those games in 1986, and it's small sample, but it at least suggests something a little extra to me about Worthy. Namely, that not only was he solidly contributing with his stats, but that his role had some value alongside Magic. Worthy was excellent on the break and also moved very well without the ball as he was a smart player. Then there's this...

In 1986 Worthy played 10 games without Magic:
w/out Magic: 20.0 ppg 5.7 rpg 4.2 apg 1.2 st 1.7 blk 2.7 TOV 60.5% TS
with Magic: 20.0 ppg 5.1 rpg 2.5 apg 1.1 st 0.9 blk 1.9 TOV 61.4% TS

In 1988 Worthy again played 10 games without Magic:
w/out Magic: 21.3 ppg 4.7 rpg 4.8 apg 1.3 st 0.6 blk 2.2 TOV 59.2% TS
with Magic: 19.5 ppg 5.0 rpg 3.7 apg 0.9 st 0.8 blk 2.1 TOV 56.7% TS

In 1989 5 games without Magic:
w/out Magic: 19.6 ppg 5.2 rpg 4.2 apg 2.4 st 0.8 blk 3.0 TOV 61.1% TS
with Magic: 20.5 ppg 6.1 rpg 3.5 apg 1.3 st 0.7 blk 2.2 TOV 58.0% TS

So Worthy actually looks fantastic without Magic around. Maybe not the raw line of a Grade A superstar, but considering these are all playoff-type teams sans Johnson, it's actually a fairly pretty line. And one that, most importantly, suggests Worthy was plenty capable without Johnson and wasn't merely a strong beneficiary of his presence. All told, from 1986-1989, Worthy played 25 games without Magic:

1986-1989 James Worthy
w/out Magic: 20.4 ppg 5.2 rpg 4.4 apg 1.5 st 1.1 blk 2.6 TOV 60.1% TS
with Magic: 20.0 ppg 5.4 rpg 3.2 apg 1.1 st 0.8 blk 2.1 TOV 58.6% TS

So he's scoring MORE, at a HIGHER efficiency, while presumably taking on a larger role in activity/creation -- noticeably more assists and turnovers -- and this clearly jibes with Worthy's skillset and (perhaps deserved) reputation.


we have a guy who is one of the few who raised his game in the postseason, who made Jordan his sidekick when they were in college, who was a great all around player, who is a fantastic fit on any team because of his attributes (plays with the ball, plays without the ball, posts up, tremendous midrange game) and most importantly, mentally is on a different level than anyone of remaining candidates.

the question is how much you value postseason performance ? Carter and Hill suffer a lot here. I would also question Carter's defense and leadership. at the end of the day 20/5/4 with great efficiency, ability to fit with other players and great mental strength is in my opinion more convincing than Hill's short peak or Carter's mental shortcomings.
Quotatious wrote: Bastillon is Hakeem. Combines style and substance.
penbeast0
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Posts: 28,445
And1: 8,679
Joined: Aug 14, 2004
Location: South Florida
 

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69 

Post#12 » by penbeast0 » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:58 pm

And Billup's post season PER is higher than Worthy's. What does that tell you about why Billups has been nominated.
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
User avatar
Laimbeer
RealGM
Posts: 40,944
And1: 14,077
Joined: Aug 12, 2009
Location: Cabin Creek

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69 

Post#13 » by Laimbeer » Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:56 pm

Vote-Tiny
Nominate-Lucas
User avatar
FJS
Senior Mod - Jazz
Senior Mod - Jazz
Posts: 18,627
And1: 2,064
Joined: Sep 19, 2002
Location: Barcelona, Spain
   

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69 

Post#14 » by FJS » Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:46 pm

Vote: James Worthy.
He was a big part of one of the biggest dinasties ever.

Nomination: Dantley
He is pretty similar to volume scorers already selected like English or King.
Image
therealbig3
RealGM
Posts: 28,662
And1: 15,095
Joined: Jul 31, 2010

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69 

Post#15 » by therealbig3 » Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:20 pm

bastillon wrote:I'd like to make a case for James Worthy. first things first, Elgee's fantastic post:

I've been looking into James Worthy, someone who has always been an interesting case for obvious reasons. (Winning AND clutch bias in a big market.) Worthy's In/Out Runs:

Worthy 1986 (7g) 9.6 to 8.6
Worthy 1988 (7g) 3.4 to 6.1
Worthy 1992 (28g) -1.1 to -1.5
[Worthy 86-88 (14g) 6.5 to 7.4]

They didn't have Cap in two of those games in 1986, and it's small sample, but it at least suggests something a little extra to me about Worthy. Namely, that not only was he solidly contributing with his stats, but that his role had some value alongside Magic. Worthy was excellent on the break and also moved very well without the ball as he was a smart player. Then there's this...

In 1986 Worthy played 10 games without Magic:
w/out Magic: 20.0 ppg 5.7 rpg 4.2 apg 1.2 st 1.7 blk 2.7 TOV 60.5% TS
with Magic: 20.0 ppg 5.1 rpg 2.5 apg 1.1 st 0.9 blk 1.9 TOV 61.4% TS

In 1988 Worthy again played 10 games without Magic:
w/out Magic: 21.3 ppg 4.7 rpg 4.8 apg 1.3 st 0.6 blk 2.2 TOV 59.2% TS
with Magic: 19.5 ppg 5.0 rpg 3.7 apg 0.9 st 0.8 blk 2.1 TOV 56.7% TS

In 1989 5 games without Magic:
w/out Magic: 19.6 ppg 5.2 rpg 4.2 apg 2.4 st 0.8 blk 3.0 TOV 61.1% TS
with Magic: 20.5 ppg 6.1 rpg 3.5 apg 1.3 st 0.7 blk 2.2 TOV 58.0% TS

So Worthy actually looks fantastic without Magic around. Maybe not the raw line of a Grade A superstar, but considering these are all playoff-type teams sans Johnson, it's actually a fairly pretty line. And one that, most importantly, suggests Worthy was plenty capable without Johnson and wasn't merely a strong beneficiary of his presence. All told, from 1986-1989, Worthy played 25 games without Magic:

1986-1989 James Worthy
w/out Magic: 20.4 ppg 5.2 rpg 4.4 apg 1.5 st 1.1 blk 2.6 TOV 60.1% TS
with Magic: 20.0 ppg 5.4 rpg 3.2 apg 1.1 st 0.8 blk 2.1 TOV 58.6% TS

So he's scoring MORE, at a HIGHER efficiency, while presumably taking on a larger role in activity/creation -- noticeably more assists and turnovers -- and this clearly jibes with Worthy's skillset and (perhaps deserved) reputation.


we have a guy who is one of the few who raised his game in the postseason, who made Jordan his sidekick when they were in college, who was a great all around player, who is a fantastic fit on any team because of his attributes (plays with the ball, plays without the ball, posts up, tremendous midrange game) and most importantly, mentally is on a different level than anyone of remaining candidates.

the question is how much you value postseason performance ? Carter and Hill suffer a lot here. I would also question Carter's defense and leadership. at the end of the day 20/5/4 with great efficiency, ability to fit with other players and great mental strength is in my opinion more convincing than Hill's short peak or Carter's mental shortcomings.


I already posted a lot about Carter, and why he's actually a pretty good playoff performer. Not sure why he has "mental shortcomings", or questionable leadership. And his defense is probably above average.

And Hill and Carter actually had to face the brunt of the defense every game. I know ElGee's numbers show a guy who played great without Magic...but those are small samples from multiple seasons. How would he have done in his prime without Magic at all for a full season? We don't know, and we know that his career was pretty much over after Magic retired.
penbeast0
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Posts: 28,445
And1: 8,679
Joined: Aug 14, 2004
Location: South Florida
 

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69 

Post#16 » by penbeast0 » Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:26 pm

Not a lot of votes or discussion this time for some reason . . . maybe it will pick up in the next 4.5 hours

VOTE:

Bobby Jones – penbeast0

Vince Carter – ronnymac2, therealbig3

Grant Hill – JordansBulls, DavidStern, Keeslinator

Nate Archibald – Laimbeer

James Worthy – FJS


NOMINATE:

Jerry Lucas – penbeast0, Laimbeer

Adrian Dantley – ronnymac2, DavidStern, Keeslinator, FJS

Shawn Kemp – JordansBulls

David Thompson – therealbig3
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 50,787
And1: 19,484
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
     

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69 

Post#17 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:57 pm

Vote: Grant Hill again

Nominate: Let's go Joe Dumars

I don't necessarily have a problem with Dantley, but I think people should be thinking about Dumars. Let's remember that the Pistons had Dantley, and the #2 that they ended up settling around was Dumars. A kind of do it all, and do it well even if not spectacularly, guy. No one was more known for guarding Jordan than he was, and he got his 20-ish PPG on solid efficiency while deferring to Isiah. Though not deferring so much that he didn't pick up a Finals MVP along the way.
Getting ready for the RealGM 100 on the PC Board

Come join the WNBA Board if you're a fan!
ElGee
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,041
And1: 1,202
Joined: Mar 08, 2010
Contact:

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69 

Post#18 » by ElGee » Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:53 am

I really have little interest in posting anything until there is something explanation for Adrian Dantley.

I'll vote for Grant Hill again.
Check out and discuss my book, now on Kindle! http://www.backpicks.com/thinking-basketball/
User avatar
Snakebites
Forum Mod - Pistons
Forum Mod - Pistons
Posts: 46,604
And1: 14,784
Joined: Jul 14, 2002
Location: Looking not-so-happily deranged
   

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69 

Post#19 » by Snakebites » Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:05 am

Didn't think I'd come back and see Hill still up here.

Gotta be some sort of record for length of time in the nomination group.

Vote: Hill

Nominate: Dumars

And I do NOT favor Chauncey being on here this early. Love the guy, though.
therealbig3
RealGM
Posts: 28,662
And1: 15,095
Joined: Jul 31, 2010

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69 

Post#20 » by therealbig3 » Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:54 am

I'll switch my nomination to Joe Dumars, because I really don't agree with Dantley going at this point. I haven't seen any evidence for him being anything more than a minimal impact player.

Return to Player Comparisons