RealGM Top 100 List #69
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RealGM Top 100 List #69
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RealGM Top 100 List #69
Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.
Voting Will End In 2 Days -- Please vote and nominate
Newest addition:
Chauncey Billups
1x ALL-NBA 2nd
2x ALL-NBA 3rd
2x All-Defense 2nd
Finals MVP 1987
NBA CHampion
5x All-STar
James Worthy
Hall of Fame 2003
2x NBA 3rd Team
Finals MVP 88
3x NBA Champion
7x All-Star
Tiny Archibald
Hall of Fame 1991
3x All-NBA 1st team
2x All-NBA 2nd team
NBA Champion in Boston 1981
6x All-Star
Bobby Jones
1x All-ABA 2nd team
NBA Champion 1983
10x All-Defense 1st team (2x in ABA)
1x All-Defense 2nd team
Sixth Man of the Year 1983
5x All-Star
Billy Cunningham
Hall of Fame 1986
ABA MVP 1973
3x All-NBA 1st team
1x All-NBA 2nd team
1x All-ABA 1st team
NBA Champion 1967
5x All-Star
Dikembe Mutombo Mpolondo Mukamba Jean-Jacques Wamutombo
1x All-NBA 2nd Team
2x All-NBA 3rd Team
4x Defensive Player of the Year
4x All-Defense 1st Team
3x All-Defense 2nd Team
8x All-Star
Vince Carter
1x All-NBA 2nd team
1x All-NBA 3rd team
8x All-Star
Rookie of Year
Grant Hill
1x 1st Team All-NBA
3x 2nd Team All-NBA
7x All-Star
Rookie of the Year
Voting Will End In 2 Days -- Please vote and nominate
Newest addition:
Chauncey Billups
1x ALL-NBA 2nd
2x ALL-NBA 3rd
2x All-Defense 2nd
Finals MVP 1987
NBA CHampion
5x All-STar
James Worthy
Hall of Fame 2003
2x NBA 3rd Team
Finals MVP 88
3x NBA Champion
7x All-Star
Tiny Archibald
Hall of Fame 1991
3x All-NBA 1st team
2x All-NBA 2nd team
NBA Champion in Boston 1981
6x All-Star
Bobby Jones
1x All-ABA 2nd team
NBA Champion 1983
10x All-Defense 1st team (2x in ABA)
1x All-Defense 2nd team
Sixth Man of the Year 1983
5x All-Star
Billy Cunningham
Hall of Fame 1986
ABA MVP 1973
3x All-NBA 1st team
1x All-NBA 2nd team
1x All-ABA 1st team
NBA Champion 1967
5x All-Star
Dikembe Mutombo Mpolondo Mukamba Jean-Jacques Wamutombo
1x All-NBA 2nd Team
2x All-NBA 3rd Team
4x Defensive Player of the Year
4x All-Defense 1st Team
3x All-Defense 2nd Team
8x All-Star
Vince Carter
1x All-NBA 2nd team
1x All-NBA 3rd team
8x All-Star
Rookie of Year
Grant Hill
1x 1st Team All-NBA
3x 2nd Team All-NBA
7x All-Star
Rookie of the Year
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
VOTE:
We have a7' shotblocking defensive anchor in Dikembe Mutombo -- efficient but with poor hands. At the other end of the spectrum we have PG Chauncey Billups who is super efficient and decent defensively.
Some combo forwards with versatile 2 ways games. From the 60/70s we have Billy Cunningham who came up as a scorer but who added defense and playmaking for a very valuable all around player. From the 70s/80s we have Bobby Jones who is the only player to ever get named 1st team All-Defense 10 times . . . in his 1st 10 seasons (his last year he was only selected as 2nd team) and played a variety of roles in his career -- he was the star of Denver's best record in either league team in 75, defended both forwards and center in Denver then went to Philly where he was a combo foward who also defended guards and shifted to 6th man (winning SMOY) when asked to give bench help to that star-studded starting lineup (Moses, DrJ, Toney, Cheeks) and was a winner everywhere he went. The 80s gave us James Worthy of the show time Lakers and a finals MVP. Finally, we have Grant Hill, an all-around star of 00s in Detroit before his injury.
For explosive scoring, we have Vince Carter, half-man/half-amazing and Nate "Tiny" Archibald. Both had great individual years with some later team success though Tiny's team success came after he quit being a "star"
No real strong feeling here. I will go with Bobby Jones for the defense . . .
We have a7' shotblocking defensive anchor in Dikembe Mutombo -- efficient but with poor hands. At the other end of the spectrum we have PG Chauncey Billups who is super efficient and decent defensively.
Some combo forwards with versatile 2 ways games. From the 60/70s we have Billy Cunningham who came up as a scorer but who added defense and playmaking for a very valuable all around player. From the 70s/80s we have Bobby Jones who is the only player to ever get named 1st team All-Defense 10 times . . . in his 1st 10 seasons (his last year he was only selected as 2nd team) and played a variety of roles in his career -- he was the star of Denver's best record in either league team in 75, defended both forwards and center in Denver then went to Philly where he was a combo foward who also defended guards and shifted to 6th man (winning SMOY) when asked to give bench help to that star-studded starting lineup (Moses, DrJ, Toney, Cheeks) and was a winner everywhere he went. The 80s gave us James Worthy of the show time Lakers and a finals MVP. Finally, we have Grant Hill, an all-around star of 00s in Detroit before his injury.
For explosive scoring, we have Vince Carter, half-man/half-amazing and Nate "Tiny" Archibald. Both had great individual years with some later team success though Tiny's team success came after he quit being a "star"
No real strong feeling here. I will go with Bobby Jones for the defense . . .
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
Point Guards -- I like Billups's consistency and efficiency, not up for any of the others
Tim Hardaway
Mark Price
Dennis Johnson ? Mookie Blaylock? Louie Dampier?
Shooting Guards --
Joe Dumars
Bill Sharman ?
Chris Mullin
Hal Greer
David Thompson
Shooting Forward -- a lot of great candidate left, in no particular order
Adrian Dantley
Shawn Marion
Connie Hawkins
Cliff Hagan
Jamaal Wilkes?
Power Forward --
Jerry Lucas
Larry Nance
Amare Stoudamire/Terry Cummings/Elton Brand
Not quite ready for Chris Webber or Shawn Kemp yet (two guys I didn't like their games but talented enough to start getting a look here over the Paul Silas/Buck Williams types that would be the main alternatives)
Centers: starting to run a little short here
Mel Daniels
----------?
Walt Bellamy
Neil Johnston
Yao Ming
Looking at the candidates -- Billups is the kind of guy I tend to rank higher than most -- very consistent two way player who wasn't a superstar but is the kind of guy who makes winning teams win. Same for Dumars and Sharman -- I'd love to get a comp of them from someone. I'd lean to Adrian Dantley among the scorers, a player with that caliber of scoring at those ridiculous efficiencies -- there must be a way to build a top team around him if you could do it with the less effective Allen Iverson. Lucas and Nance are the best PF types (and probably over Shawn Marion too) for consistency and star quality over time. Jerry Lucas wasn't a great defender but he was the other main star on those great Cinncinnati offenses with his rebounding and outside game allowing Oscar to work his magic inside -- then Lucas turned around and helped the defense and passing oriented Knicks win another title with Willis Reed injured and ineffective. He was a great rebounder, a very efficient outside scoring big, and a terrific passer who gets less love than his numbers because of his Asberger's type personality but one of the best for a long time. Finally, Mel Daniels won TWO MVP's and 3 championships in the ABA -- yes it was an inferior league and his career wasn't that long but it was better ball than the NBA in the 50s and he was basically Alonzo Mourning as a player with better rebounding but less shotblocking -- similar offense and attitude. He'd be a star even today though probably not a 20ppg scorer.
For the modern game, I would go with Jerry Lucas -- a stretch big with great IQ who is also a top rebounder -- basically Kevin Love with a 10 year peak; for impact, Mel Daniels who was a stronger, less vertical version of Zo.
For now, NOMINATE JERRY LUCAS
Tim Hardaway
Mark Price
Dennis Johnson ? Mookie Blaylock? Louie Dampier?
Shooting Guards --
Joe Dumars
Bill Sharman ?
Chris Mullin
Hal Greer
David Thompson
Shooting Forward -- a lot of great candidate left, in no particular order
Adrian Dantley
Shawn Marion
Connie Hawkins
Cliff Hagan
Jamaal Wilkes?
Power Forward --
Jerry Lucas
Larry Nance
Amare Stoudamire/Terry Cummings/Elton Brand
Not quite ready for Chris Webber or Shawn Kemp yet (two guys I didn't like their games but talented enough to start getting a look here over the Paul Silas/Buck Williams types that would be the main alternatives)
Centers: starting to run a little short here
Mel Daniels
----------?
Walt Bellamy
Neil Johnston
Yao Ming
Looking at the candidates -- Billups is the kind of guy I tend to rank higher than most -- very consistent two way player who wasn't a superstar but is the kind of guy who makes winning teams win. Same for Dumars and Sharman -- I'd love to get a comp of them from someone. I'd lean to Adrian Dantley among the scorers, a player with that caliber of scoring at those ridiculous efficiencies -- there must be a way to build a top team around him if you could do it with the less effective Allen Iverson. Lucas and Nance are the best PF types (and probably over Shawn Marion too) for consistency and star quality over time. Jerry Lucas wasn't a great defender but he was the other main star on those great Cinncinnati offenses with his rebounding and outside game allowing Oscar to work his magic inside -- then Lucas turned around and helped the defense and passing oriented Knicks win another title with Willis Reed injured and ineffective. He was a great rebounder, a very efficient outside scoring big, and a terrific passer who gets less love than his numbers because of his Asberger's type personality but one of the best for a long time. Finally, Mel Daniels won TWO MVP's and 3 championships in the ABA -- yes it was an inferior league and his career wasn't that long but it was better ball than the NBA in the 50s and he was basically Alonzo Mourning as a player with better rebounding but less shotblocking -- similar offense and attitude. He'd be a star even today though probably not a 20ppg scorer.
For the modern game, I would go with Jerry Lucas -- a stretch big with great IQ who is also a top rebounder -- basically Kevin Love with a 10 year peak; for impact, Mel Daniels who was a stronger, less vertical version of Zo.
For now, NOMINATE JERRY LUCAS
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
Damn, that's early for Billups... Is he really going to make the list before Melo??? They played on the same team and the people who said Billups is better stopping talking after the playoffs...
Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
Vote: Vince Carter
Nominate: Adrian Dantley
Nominate: Adrian Dantley
Pay no mind to the battles you've won
It'll take a lot more than rage and muscle
Open your heart and hands, my son
Or you'll never make it over the river
It'll take a lot more than rage and muscle
Open your heart and hands, my son
Or you'll never make it over the river
Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
Vote: Grant Hill
Nominate: Shawn Kemp
Nominate: Shawn Kemp
"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
vote: Hill
nominate: Dantley
nominate: Dantley
Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
WHY Adrian Dantley?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
Vote: Vince Carter
Nominate: David Thompson
Nominate: David Thompson
Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
VOTE: Grant Hill
NOMINATE: Adrian Dantley
NOMINATE: Adrian Dantley
Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
I'd like to make a case for James Worthy. first things first, Elgee's fantastic post:
we have a guy who is one of the few who raised his game in the postseason, who made Jordan his sidekick when they were in college, who was a great all around player, who is a fantastic fit on any team because of his attributes (plays with the ball, plays without the ball, posts up, tremendous midrange game) and most importantly, mentally is on a different level than anyone of remaining candidates.
the question is how much you value postseason performance ? Carter and Hill suffer a lot here. I would also question Carter's defense and leadership. at the end of the day 20/5/4 with great efficiency, ability to fit with other players and great mental strength is in my opinion more convincing than Hill's short peak or Carter's mental shortcomings.
I've been looking into James Worthy, someone who has always been an interesting case for obvious reasons. (Winning AND clutch bias in a big market.) Worthy's In/Out Runs:
Worthy 1986 (7g) 9.6 to 8.6
Worthy 1988 (7g) 3.4 to 6.1
Worthy 1992 (28g) -1.1 to -1.5
[Worthy 86-88 (14g) 6.5 to 7.4]
They didn't have Cap in two of those games in 1986, and it's small sample, but it at least suggests something a little extra to me about Worthy. Namely, that not only was he solidly contributing with his stats, but that his role had some value alongside Magic. Worthy was excellent on the break and also moved very well without the ball as he was a smart player. Then there's this...
In 1986 Worthy played 10 games without Magic:
w/out Magic: 20.0 ppg 5.7 rpg 4.2 apg 1.2 st 1.7 blk 2.7 TOV 60.5% TS
with Magic: 20.0 ppg 5.1 rpg 2.5 apg 1.1 st 0.9 blk 1.9 TOV 61.4% TS
In 1988 Worthy again played 10 games without Magic:
w/out Magic: 21.3 ppg 4.7 rpg 4.8 apg 1.3 st 0.6 blk 2.2 TOV 59.2% TS
with Magic: 19.5 ppg 5.0 rpg 3.7 apg 0.9 st 0.8 blk 2.1 TOV 56.7% TS
In 1989 5 games without Magic:
w/out Magic: 19.6 ppg 5.2 rpg 4.2 apg 2.4 st 0.8 blk 3.0 TOV 61.1% TS
with Magic: 20.5 ppg 6.1 rpg 3.5 apg 1.3 st 0.7 blk 2.2 TOV 58.0% TS
So Worthy actually looks fantastic without Magic around. Maybe not the raw line of a Grade A superstar, but considering these are all playoff-type teams sans Johnson, it's actually a fairly pretty line. And one that, most importantly, suggests Worthy was plenty capable without Johnson and wasn't merely a strong beneficiary of his presence. All told, from 1986-1989, Worthy played 25 games without Magic:
1986-1989 James Worthy
w/out Magic: 20.4 ppg 5.2 rpg 4.4 apg 1.5 st 1.1 blk 2.6 TOV 60.1% TS
with Magic: 20.0 ppg 5.4 rpg 3.2 apg 1.1 st 0.8 blk 2.1 TOV 58.6% TS
So he's scoring MORE, at a HIGHER efficiency, while presumably taking on a larger role in activity/creation -- noticeably more assists and turnovers -- and this clearly jibes with Worthy's skillset and (perhaps deserved) reputation.
we have a guy who is one of the few who raised his game in the postseason, who made Jordan his sidekick when they were in college, who was a great all around player, who is a fantastic fit on any team because of his attributes (plays with the ball, plays without the ball, posts up, tremendous midrange game) and most importantly, mentally is on a different level than anyone of remaining candidates.
the question is how much you value postseason performance ? Carter and Hill suffer a lot here. I would also question Carter's defense and leadership. at the end of the day 20/5/4 with great efficiency, ability to fit with other players and great mental strength is in my opinion more convincing than Hill's short peak or Carter's mental shortcomings.
Quotatious wrote: Bastillon is Hakeem. Combines style and substance.
Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
And Billup's post season PER is higher than Worthy's. What does that tell you about why Billups has been nominated.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
Vote-Tiny
Nominate-Lucas
Nominate-Lucas
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
Vote: James Worthy.
He was a big part of one of the biggest dinasties ever.
Nomination: Dantley
He is pretty similar to volume scorers already selected like English or King.
He was a big part of one of the biggest dinasties ever.
Nomination: Dantley
He is pretty similar to volume scorers already selected like English or King.
Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
bastillon wrote:I'd like to make a case for James Worthy. first things first, Elgee's fantastic post:I've been looking into James Worthy, someone who has always been an interesting case for obvious reasons. (Winning AND clutch bias in a big market.) Worthy's In/Out Runs:
Worthy 1986 (7g) 9.6 to 8.6
Worthy 1988 (7g) 3.4 to 6.1
Worthy 1992 (28g) -1.1 to -1.5
[Worthy 86-88 (14g) 6.5 to 7.4]
They didn't have Cap in two of those games in 1986, and it's small sample, but it at least suggests something a little extra to me about Worthy. Namely, that not only was he solidly contributing with his stats, but that his role had some value alongside Magic. Worthy was excellent on the break and also moved very well without the ball as he was a smart player. Then there's this...
In 1986 Worthy played 10 games without Magic:
w/out Magic: 20.0 ppg 5.7 rpg 4.2 apg 1.2 st 1.7 blk 2.7 TOV 60.5% TS
with Magic: 20.0 ppg 5.1 rpg 2.5 apg 1.1 st 0.9 blk 1.9 TOV 61.4% TS
In 1988 Worthy again played 10 games without Magic:
w/out Magic: 21.3 ppg 4.7 rpg 4.8 apg 1.3 st 0.6 blk 2.2 TOV 59.2% TS
with Magic: 19.5 ppg 5.0 rpg 3.7 apg 0.9 st 0.8 blk 2.1 TOV 56.7% TS
In 1989 5 games without Magic:
w/out Magic: 19.6 ppg 5.2 rpg 4.2 apg 2.4 st 0.8 blk 3.0 TOV 61.1% TS
with Magic: 20.5 ppg 6.1 rpg 3.5 apg 1.3 st 0.7 blk 2.2 TOV 58.0% TS
So Worthy actually looks fantastic without Magic around. Maybe not the raw line of a Grade A superstar, but considering these are all playoff-type teams sans Johnson, it's actually a fairly pretty line. And one that, most importantly, suggests Worthy was plenty capable without Johnson and wasn't merely a strong beneficiary of his presence. All told, from 1986-1989, Worthy played 25 games without Magic:
1986-1989 James Worthy
w/out Magic: 20.4 ppg 5.2 rpg 4.4 apg 1.5 st 1.1 blk 2.6 TOV 60.1% TS
with Magic: 20.0 ppg 5.4 rpg 3.2 apg 1.1 st 0.8 blk 2.1 TOV 58.6% TS
So he's scoring MORE, at a HIGHER efficiency, while presumably taking on a larger role in activity/creation -- noticeably more assists and turnovers -- and this clearly jibes with Worthy's skillset and (perhaps deserved) reputation.
we have a guy who is one of the few who raised his game in the postseason, who made Jordan his sidekick when they were in college, who was a great all around player, who is a fantastic fit on any team because of his attributes (plays with the ball, plays without the ball, posts up, tremendous midrange game) and most importantly, mentally is on a different level than anyone of remaining candidates.
the question is how much you value postseason performance ? Carter and Hill suffer a lot here. I would also question Carter's defense and leadership. at the end of the day 20/5/4 with great efficiency, ability to fit with other players and great mental strength is in my opinion more convincing than Hill's short peak or Carter's mental shortcomings.
I already posted a lot about Carter, and why he's actually a pretty good playoff performer. Not sure why he has "mental shortcomings", or questionable leadership. And his defense is probably above average.
And Hill and Carter actually had to face the brunt of the defense every game. I know ElGee's numbers show a guy who played great without Magic...but those are small samples from multiple seasons. How would he have done in his prime without Magic at all for a full season? We don't know, and we know that his career was pretty much over after Magic retired.
Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
Not a lot of votes or discussion this time for some reason . . . maybe it will pick up in the next 4.5 hours
VOTE:
Bobby Jones – penbeast0
Vince Carter – ronnymac2, therealbig3
Grant Hill – JordansBulls, DavidStern, Keeslinator
Nate Archibald – Laimbeer
James Worthy – FJS
NOMINATE:
Jerry Lucas – penbeast0, Laimbeer
Adrian Dantley – ronnymac2, DavidStern, Keeslinator, FJS
Shawn Kemp – JordansBulls
David Thompson – therealbig3
VOTE:
Bobby Jones – penbeast0
Vince Carter – ronnymac2, therealbig3
Grant Hill – JordansBulls, DavidStern, Keeslinator
Nate Archibald – Laimbeer
James Worthy – FJS
NOMINATE:
Jerry Lucas – penbeast0, Laimbeer
Adrian Dantley – ronnymac2, DavidStern, Keeslinator, FJS
Shawn Kemp – JordansBulls
David Thompson – therealbig3
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
Vote: Grant Hill again
Nominate: Let's go Joe Dumars
I don't necessarily have a problem with Dantley, but I think people should be thinking about Dumars. Let's remember that the Pistons had Dantley, and the #2 that they ended up settling around was Dumars. A kind of do it all, and do it well even if not spectacularly, guy. No one was more known for guarding Jordan than he was, and he got his 20-ish PPG on solid efficiency while deferring to Isiah. Though not deferring so much that he didn't pick up a Finals MVP along the way.
Nominate: Let's go Joe Dumars
I don't necessarily have a problem with Dantley, but I think people should be thinking about Dumars. Let's remember that the Pistons had Dantley, and the #2 that they ended up settling around was Dumars. A kind of do it all, and do it well even if not spectacularly, guy. No one was more known for guarding Jordan than he was, and he got his 20-ish PPG on solid efficiency while deferring to Isiah. Though not deferring so much that he didn't pick up a Finals MVP along the way.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
I really have little interest in posting anything until there is something explanation for Adrian Dantley.
I'll vote for Grant Hill again.
I'll vote for Grant Hill again.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
Didn't think I'd come back and see Hill still up here.
Gotta be some sort of record for length of time in the nomination group.
Vote: Hill
Nominate: Dumars
And I do NOT favor Chauncey being on here this early. Love the guy, though.
Gotta be some sort of record for length of time in the nomination group.
Vote: Hill
Nominate: Dumars
And I do NOT favor Chauncey being on here this early. Love the guy, though.
Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #69
I'll switch my nomination to Joe Dumars, because I really don't agree with Dantley going at this point. I haven't seen any evidence for him being anything more than a minimal impact player.