RealGM Top 100 List #70

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RealGM Top 100 List #70 

Post#1 » by penbeast0 » Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:53 am

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days -- Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:

Adrian Dantley
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Hall of Fame 2008
2x All-NBA 2nd Team
Rookie of the Year 1977
6x All-Star

Chauncey Billups
Image
1x ALL-NBA 2nd
2x ALL-NBA 3rd
2x All-Defense 2nd
Finals MVP 1987
NBA CHampion
5x All-STar

James Worthy
Image
Hall of Fame 2003
2x NBA 3rd Team
Finals MVP 88
3x NBA Champion
7x All-Star
Tiny Archibald
Image
Hall of Fame 1991
3x All-NBA 1st team
2x All-NBA 2nd team
NBA Champion in Boston 1981
6x All-Star


Bobby Jones
Image
1x All-ABA 2nd team
NBA Champion 1983
10x All-Defense 1st team (2x in ABA)
1x All-Defense 2nd team
Sixth Man of the Year 1983
5x All-Star

Billy Cunningham
Image
Hall of Fame 1986
ABA MVP 1973
3x All-NBA 1st team
1x All-NBA 2nd team
1x All-ABA 1st team
NBA Champion 1967
5x All-Star


Dikembe Mutombo Mpolondo Mukamba Jean-Jacques Wamutombo
Image
1x All-NBA 2nd Team
2x All-NBA 3rd Team
4x Defensive Player of the Year
4x All-Defense 1st Team
3x All-Defense 2nd Team
8x All-Star

Vince Carter
Image
1x All-NBA 2nd team
1x All-NBA 3rd team
8x All-Star
Rookie of Year
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #70 

Post#2 » by penbeast0 » Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:56 am

VOTE:

We have a7' shotblocking defensive anchor in Dikembe Mutombo -- efficient but with poor hands. At the other end of the spectrum we have PG Chauncey Billups who is a solid scorer, efficient, and decent defensively.

Some combo forwards with versatile 2 ways games. From the 60/70s we have Billy Cunningham who came up as a scorer but who added defense and playmaking for a very valuable all around player. From the 70s/80s we have Bobby Jones who is the only player to ever get named 1st team All-Defense 10 times . . . in his 1st 10 seasons (his last year he was only selected as 2nd team) and played a variety of roles in his career -- he was the star of Denver's best record in either league team in 75, defended both forwards and center in Denver then went to Philly where he was a combo foward who also defended guards and shifted to 6th man (winning SMOY) when asked to give bench help to that star-studded starting lineup (Moses, DrJ, Toney, Cheeks) and was a winner everywhere he went. The 80s gave us James Worthy of the show time Lakers and a finals MVP.

For explosive scoring, we have Vince Carter, half-man/half-amazing, the superefficient superscorer Adrian Dantley, and Nate "Tiny" Archibald. All have been criticized -- maybe legitimately maybe not -- for lack of defense and "empty" stats but the stats are still there.

No real strong feeling here. I will go with Bobby Jones for the defense . . .
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #70 

Post#3 » by penbeast0 » Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:02 am

Point Guards -- Can't say I'm enthused about anyone here. Probably the next two will be Tim Hardaway and Mark Price. Who else is left -- Dennis Johnson ? Mookie Blaylock? Louie Dampier?

Shooting Guards -- On the other hand, there are lots of interesting shooting guards left
Joe Dumars
Bill Sharman
Chris Mullin
Hal Greer
David Thompson

Shooting Forward -- also some real talent:
Shawn Marion
Connie Hawkins
Cliff Hagan
Carmelo Anthony? Dandridge/Wilkes/Wise?

Power Forward -- the strongest position with lots of good candidates
Jerry Lucas
Larry Nance
Amare Stoudamire/Terry Cummings/Elton Brand
Not quite ready for Chris Webber or Shawn Kemp yet (two guys I didn't like their games but talented enough to start getting a look here over the Paul Silas/Buck Williams types that would be the main alternatives)

Centers: starting to run a little short here
Mel Daniels
----------?
Walt Bellamy
Neil Johnston
Yao Ming

Looking at the candidates -- Lucas and Nance are the best PF types (and probably over Shawn Marion too) for consistency and star quality over time. Jerry Lucas wasn't a great defender but he was the other main star on those great Cinncinnati offenses with his rebounding and outside game allowing Oscar to work his magic inside -- then Lucas turned around and helped the defense and passing oriented Knicks win another title with Willis Reed injured and ineffective. He was a great rebounder, a very efficient outside scoring big, and a terrific passer who gets less love than his numbers because of his Asberger's type personality but one of the best for a long time. For peak, Mel Daniels won TWO MVP's and 3 championships in the ABA -- yes it was an inferior league and his career wasn't that long but it was better ball than the NBA in the 50s and he was basically Alonzo Mourning as a player with better rebounding but less shotblocking -- similar offense and attitude. He'd be a star even today though probably not a 20ppg scorer.

For now, NOMINATE JERRY LUCAS -- a stretch big with great IQ who is also a top rebounder.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #70 

Post#4 » by therealbig3 » Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:07 am

Vote: Vince Carter
Nominate: David Thompson
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #70 

Post#5 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:53 am

Going through the process of explaining my thoughts in the nomination has left me feeling pretty high on both Cunningham and Bobby Jones. Still waiting for someone to talk me down on that front. At this point:

Vote: Billy Cunningham

Giving the nod to Cunningham with a willingness to move over to Jones is he gets momentum.

Nominate: Dumars

I put Dumars out there in the last thread as someone who needed consideration and he almost got the nomination. Didn't quite expect that. I'm still nominating him here, he's still and all around solid player that I'd love to have anywhere. I am however, looking forward to seeing more discussion of him on the con side as well as the pro.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #70 

Post#6 » by JordansBulls » Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:32 am

Vote: Deke
Nominate: Kemp
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #70 

Post#7 » by therealbig3 » Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:02 am

Doctor MJ wrote:Going through the process of explaining my thoughts in the nomination has left me feeling pretty high on both Cunningham and Bobby Jones. Still waiting for someone to talk me down on that front. At this point:

Vote: Billy Cunningham

Giving the nod to Cunningham with a willingness to move over to Jones is he gets momentum.

Nominate: Dumars

I put Dumars out there in the last thread as someone who needed consideration and he almost got the nomination. Didn't quite expect that. I'm still nominating him here, he's still and all around solid player that I'd love to have anywhere. I am however, looking forward to seeing more discussion of him on the con side as well as the pro.


LOL, well Dumars almost won because ElGee and I liked him a lot more than Dantley, not because we necessarily liked Dumars at that spot.

Personally, I don't have Dumars coming up for nomination until after Thompson, Greer, Kemp, and Price.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #70 

Post#8 » by TMACFORMVP » Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:05 am

How does Dandridge stack up w/ Dumars?

ElGee had some great stuff on him in the RPOY.

ElGee wrote:Bullets-Hawks
G1+G2:: Dandridge 66 total points.
G3: Hayes 19 pts (0 4th) 14 reb. Dandridge 15 pts.
G4: Dandridge 15 of 29 in 4th quarter including tying shot w/15 seconds left. Hayes 31 pts.
G7: Dandridge 19 of 29 in 4th, 14 of game's final 16 for Dandridge. Hayes 39 points 15 rebounds 3 blocks on 17-34 shooting in 48 min. Was 50-37 reb edge and 25-14 OReb edge.
*For series: Dandridge 23.6 ppg Hayes 23.4 ppg

Bullets-Spurs
G1: Dandridge 27 points.
G2: Hayes jammed his finger 2 minutes in. Gervin 34 points. Dandridge 19. Hayes 15.
G3: Hayes 15 pts 7-20 3-6 FT's. Dandrige 28 points and "held" Kenon to 11 points. Gervin 29 points.
G4: Gervin 42 points, 20 in 3rd (18 in a row). Dandridge 6 points.
G5: Hayes 24 pts 22 rebounds. Dandridge 13 points. *Doug Moe doubled Dandridge and Hayes a lot. The Bullets "started doubling Gervin near the lane.” 28 points for Gervin.
G6: Hayes 25 pts. Gervin 20 pts (guarded by Dandridge and Grevey).
G7: Gervin 42 points: 8 in 1st half, 34 in 2nd half. Hayes blocked Silas with 4 seconds left. Dandridge 37 points, 11 in 4th, including GW shot w/8 seconds. Hayes 23 points. *A number of reports note Greg Ballard abusing Ice downlow down the stretch bc SAS couldn't put him on Dandridge. 19-12 for Ballard in the game.

AP report on Dandridge: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=LA ... ayes&hl=en

“He may be the best pressure player in the league,” said Bernie Bickerstaff.
Doug Moe also felt he was the key to the Bullets.


This was only for the '79 season too. In '78, he outscored Julius Erving in the ECF (many reports claimed he outplayed him). In '71, when the Bucks won the championship, it was actually Dandridge who was second on the team in scoring (after Kareem, obviously) in the post-season. He even did 20/10 in the finals that year too. Monster clutch playoff performer (he's had 6 post seasons of at least 19 PPG, with 4 of them being over 20).

Dude was clutch, very good on both ends, and often underrated b/c he played with other very good players, that people often forget to consider him a star as well. I mean check out these quotes from Paul Silas, and Rick Barry (Silas first, then Barry):

"He was a great shooter, especially mid-range, and he could get his shot off on almost anybody. He really understood how to play. When they needed a hoop--even when he was playing with Milwaukee and Oscar and those guys--he shined. Of course, with Washington he was one of the focal points of that team. He just had the uncanny ability of making big shots at the right time. He talked the game and understood it and imparted that (to his teammates). He was very, very smart about the game and how he fit within the scheme and how he wanted everybody else to fit."


"He was an outstanding player. He's one of those guys that you respect because you know that he is going to show up to play every night. (He was) a good shooter, he was kind of deceptive with his moves. He wasn't the kind of guy who was going to beat you with blistering speed and quickness but he understood how to get the most out of the talent that he had."


Doesn't that sound eerily familiar to a Paul Pierce sort player (at least post '08)? Obviously, he isn't as good, but he could create his shot, play off other great players, was an awesome defender, very good shooter, clutch, could rebound, and had underrated play-making (w/being more a focal point in Washington, he had a peak year doing nearly 5 assists, and nearly 6 in the post-season). Not to mention good versatility, much like Pierce. I was watching one of the Finals games, and the commentators referred to Dandridge as "Mr. Clutch." Obviously that didn't really stick and was already taken, lol, but still, somewhat indicative of how he was viewed at the time (that, and finishing top 5 in MVP voting once).

And he did this for a solid 8-9 years, though admittedly, not as great as the '79 season, but still very good in it's own regards. That sort of longevity is similar to Dumars, if not greater.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #70 

Post#9 » by TMACFORMVP » Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:44 am

And oh yeah, my vote goes for Carter. Don't know who I'll nominate yet.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #70 

Post#10 » by ElGee » Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:02 am

vote: Nothing right now
nominate: David Thompson

With the inclusion of Grant Hill, we've finally caught up to No. 62 on my list. That's some serious lag. There isn't a player on the board I have higher than 74th. So, I'm ready to vote for players who still need nomination. In order:

Thompson
Webber
Greer
Price
Sharman
Anthony

Before we get to Carter and Mutombo.

As for Dantley, I don't find "look at his stats" to be much of an argument. I'm not saying someone out there is going to convince me that this wasn't a deeply flawed, small (to negative) impact player. But at least tell me why you're voting for him. If "look at his stats' is the answer, then that's a pretty disappointing reason to me. If you can't get past raw stats, then where is Walt Bellamy? Mitch Richmond? Reggie Theus? Antawn Jamison? Mark Aguirre? Even Antoine Walker?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #70 

Post#11 » by therealbig3 » Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:30 am

Why exactly are people so reluctant to vote in Carter?

Him and Paul Pierce are two extremely similar players. I was probably Pierce's biggest supporter, and I do rank him quite a bit higher than Carter (Pierce at 31, Carter at 59), but outside of efficiency (and it's not like Carter is inefficient), Carter is very similar to Pierce. He's not as good fitting in with other superstars as Pierce is (as evidenced by Carter in Orlando and Phoenix), nor is he quite as good as Pierce in terms of scoring (due to inferior efficiency), nor is he quite on Pierce's level in terms of rebounding and defense, but he's actually a superior playmaker, and I feel like he had more explosive scoring performances in the playoffs than Pierce did. And all those areas in which Carter falls short of Pierce...we're not talking about a massive gap here, Carter is close, but not quite on Pierce's level.

Overall, we're looking at a poor man's Paul Pierce, and not even that poor. Probably a lower middle class person's Paul Pierce. At the very least, Carter should be around AI, who went at 46. Too high for me, but I definitely have AI in my top 60 at least, which is around where Carter should be.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #70 

Post#12 » by -Kees- » Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:34 pm

VOTE: Bobby Jones
NOMINATE: Shawn Kemp
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #70 

Post#13 » by drza » Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:40 pm

therealbig3 wrote:Why exactly are people so reluctant to vote in Carter?

Him and Paul Pierce are two extremely similar players. I was probably Pierce's biggest supporter, and I do rank him quite a bit higher than Carter (Pierce at 31, Carter at 59), but outside of efficiency (and it's not like Carter is inefficient), Carter is very similar to Pierce. He's not as good fitting in with other superstars as Pierce is (as evidenced by Carter in Orlando and Phoenix), nor is he quite as good as Pierce in terms of scoring (due to inferior efficiency), nor is he quite on Pierce's level in terms of rebounding and defense, but he's actually a superior playmaker, and I feel like he had more explosive scoring performances in the playoffs than Pierce did. And all those areas in which Carter falls short of Pierce...we're not talking about a massive gap here, Carter is close, but not quite on Pierce's level.

Overall, we're looking at a poor man's Paul Pierce


Honestly, I agree with the first and I can go either way about the second bolded point. That was essentially my point all along in the Pierce threads...that he was very comparable with players that I'd be voting a LOT later in the process than where Pierce went.

In other words, you're saying their similar so to not vote for Carter here is to vote him too late. To me, they're similar and that this is right around the right time to vote for Carter, which is just an indication that Pierce went way too early.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #70 

Post#14 » by drza » Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:52 pm

I've been alternating between Webber and Big Ben Wallace on the nominations for awhile, but now that Chauncey is in I REALLY think it's time for Big Ben to get in. In my opinion he was pretty clearly the backbone and most important player on those championship Pistons, not Chauncey. It was his personality and style of play that defined the team, and during their championship run it was Big Ben whose impact was clearly the greatest. Chauncey became the face of the POST-CHAMPIONSHIP Pistons...you know, the ones that were characterized by their tendency to have good regular season records but fold in the playoffs. Big Ben, on the other hand, outside of the championship year was a 4-time Defensive Player of the Year and 4-time All NBA performer.

I think that Big Ben should be the first of those '04 Pistons in. And honestly, I'm not sure that Sheed shouldn't be the second.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #70 

Post#15 » by bastillon » Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:53 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:Going through the process of explaining my thoughts in the nomination has left me feeling pretty high on both Cunningham and Bobby Jones. Still waiting for someone to talk me down on that front. At this point:

Vote: Billy Cunningham

Giving the nod to Cunningham with a willingness to move over to Jones is he gets momentum.


why Cunningham over Carter and Worthy ?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #70 

Post#16 » by bastillon » Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:00 pm

great post on Dandridge by TMAC. very similar to Worthy actually.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #70 

Post#17 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:07 pm

bastillon wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Going through the process of explaining my thoughts in the nomination has left me feeling pretty high on both Cunningham and Bobby Jones. Still waiting for someone to talk me down on that front. At this point:

Vote: Billy Cunningham

Giving the nod to Cunningham with a willingness to move over to Jones is he gets momentum.


why Cunningham over Carter and Worthy ?


Cunningham was an extremely high BBIQ guy, with an extreme motor, who would end up being your point forward and your top rebounder. He was held up as essentially a dream player by both Dean Smith and Larry Brown, then after a career ending injury was handed the 76ers to run where had quite good success.

Accolade wise, he finished in the top 5 for MVP twice in the NBA before winning the MVP of the ABA. Carter & Worthy never did any of that. He made the All-NBA 1st or 2nd team 4 times before moving to the ABA. Carter only did that once, Worthy never did.

Career longevity wise, he lasted about as long as Worthy. Carter has the longevity edge of course, but also has bounced from team to team, so it's not actually a major edge in terms of what you'd expect to enjoy from his as someone running a team.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #70 

Post#18 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:26 pm

therealbig3 wrote:Why exactly are people so reluctant to vote in Carter?

Him and Paul Pierce are two extremely similar players. I was probably Pierce's biggest supporter, and I do rank him quite a bit higher than Carter (Pierce at 31, Carter at 59), but outside of efficiency (and it's not like Carter is inefficient), Carter is very similar to Pierce. He's not as good fitting in with other superstars as Pierce is (as evidenced by Carter in Orlando and Phoenix), nor is he quite as good as Pierce in terms of scoring (due to inferior efficiency), nor is he quite on Pierce's level in terms of rebounding and defense, but he's actually a superior playmaker, and I feel like he had more explosive scoring performances in the playoffs than Pierce did. And all those areas in which Carter falls short of Pierce...we're not talking about a massive gap here, Carter is close, but not quite on Pierce's level.

Overall, we're looking at a poor man's Paul Pierce, and not even that poor. Probably a lower middle class person's Paul Pierce. At the very least, Carter should be around AI, who went at 46. Too high for me, but I definitely have AI in my top 60 at least, which is around where Carter should be.


To be perfectly honest, I'm a bit shocked about how big the gap is between the two has become on my own list.

Now though, the big surprise for me was how high I put Pierce. As I kept comparing Pierce to current players though, he kept coming out ahead where Carter did not, and part of this comes from me being kind of blown away at how consistently Pierce has had an elite Adjusted +/- score. Every major multi-year metric we have from from '03 onward has Pierce in the Top 20, and typically right around #10.

That may not sound like much to you, but the list of players who consistently rack up high numbers is only 10 guys, and all of those guys are universally considered Tier 1 superstars except Ginobili and Pierce. For Pierce to be in this group when he transitioned from "do it by yourself" superstar to "all for one, one for all" Big 3 guy, is quite impressive. It combined with everything else (efficiency, team longevity, playoff performances) puts me in place to think of him as a player who really has a major intangible edge over other guys we tended to think were comparable.

As for Carter, I'm not trying to penalize the guy, but I just haven't really had my mind changed about him in the past few years, and I never had him really near my top 50. I mean, I just compared him to Cunningham, and it's hard for me to see preferring Carter, y'know?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #70 

Post#19 » by Dr Positivity » Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:50 pm

What happened to the PF wave momentum (Brand, Webber, Amare, Kemp, Bosh). I was a bit more cool on Brand and Webber than most but Billups and Dantley getting nominated before them? And I'd throw Bobby Jones making it ahead of all those PFs, weak MP and tertiary offense and all, pretty questionable as well. I don't consider Jones to be a Mutumbo Thurmond type defensive anchor, rather a good piece. Chris Webber was a franchise player who was a Montreal screwjob away from being the alpha dog on a title winner and making top 40 on this list. I'm probably more confident in Debusschere's impact than Jones'

Anyways, going through the nominees

Dantley - Not in my top 100. Does he get a bad rap - probably. I don't think he's a below average player. But he anchored bottom 5 teams and horrible offenses in his prime and he had the best defender in the league in Eaton on his team, seemingly a perfect fit for an offense only anchor, and latter young Stockton, Malone, Bailey and STILL couldn't win. The Lakers absolutely blamed him for cancering them out and the Pistons won 2 titles trading him. Sorry AD

Billups - NBA equivalent of the QB on an all time dominant NFL defense, who's job is to manage the game, not throw picks and get everyone in line. Fine player to have but not more valuable than superstars. Melo was the dominant player on the 2009 and 2010 Nuggets. I suppose I could buy the argument that Billups was level or slightly more valuable in the regular season, but once the playoffs it wasn't a question who's team it was.

Jones - Mutumbo is a C and "anchor" which has to have the edge over a perimeter trapper and played both more minutes and more years. I don't see how Mutumbo vs Jones is a big question.

Worthy - Below Cunningham who has a higher ceiling and is a better rebounder

Tiny vs Cunningham - Both guys have somewhat short but high peaks. I prefer Cunningham to the ball dominant PG who didn't seem to have the results as high as his stats.

Cunningham vs Carter - I consider Carter to be as good a player as him at his peak if not better - Both guys are good but not exceptional scorers, Cunningham is a great rebounder but Carter is a playmaker and run the offense through guy. Carter has the longevity edge. Edge Carter

Carter vs Mutumbo - Frankly these guys are pretty easily above the rest for me. Really valuable players at SG and C who give you most of what you want at the position, can fit on a lot of contenders. I prefer the offensive anchor if it's a question. There's a lot of offensive anchors who play on top 10 defense because you can stack the frontline with limited players and have them focus their energy on that end

Vote Carter

Nominate David Thompson
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #70 

Post#20 » by penbeast0 » Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:07 pm

How would you compare Webber to Jerry Lucas. Neither good defenders, Webber scores and passes more but Lucas is good at both, Lucas is a very good rebounder and efficient stretch 4 (particularly relative to era) while Webber is neither. Lucas is a bit of an anal freak; Webber a spoiled brat, Webber was more of a choker while Lucas changed roles and succeeded in NY but was never more than the #2 guy on a team. I'd rather have Lucas on most teams, Webber always has an "but if" quality to his triumphs.

Also favor Mel Daniels pretty clearly -- the anti-Webber, he was a fiery leader, great rebounder, Mr. Physical play -- had a game pretty similar to Zo but more strength and less air -- only real drawbacks are weaker league (big one) and short career but 2 MVPs and 3 Titles beat being a phantom timeout calling choking dog.
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