RealGM Top 100 List #78

[penbeast0]

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days -- Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:

Connie Hawkins

Hall of Fame 1992
ABA MVP 1968
(ABL MVP 1962)
2x All-ABA 1st Team
1x All-NBA 1st Team
ABA Champion 1968
5x All-Star


Jerry Lucas

3x All-NBA 1st team
2x All-NBA 2nd team
1 NBA Championship 1973
Rookie of the Year 1964
7x All-Star


Mark Price

1x All-NBA 1st Team
3x All-NBA 3rd Team
4x All-Star


Shawn Kemp

3x All-NBA 2nd team
6x All-Star


Hal Greer

Hall of Fame 1982
7x All-NBA 2nd
1x NBA Championship
10x All-Star


Adrian Dantley

Hall of Fame 2008
2x All-NBA 2nd Team
Rookie of the Year 1977
6x All-Star


Chauncey Billups

1x ALL-NBA 2nd
2x ALL-NBA 3rd
2x All-Defense 2nd
Finals MVP 1987
NBA CHampion
5x All-STar

[penbeast0]

VOTE:

Shawn Kemp and Jerry Lucas were both big F/Cs. Kemp was athletic and active defensively although foul prone; Lucas was a great rebounder with outstanding shooting range who the voters of his day put into the HOF over Willis Reed among others; the high BBIQ choice.

Connie Hawkins was, with Elgin Baylor, the Dr.J/Michael Jordan of the 60s. Though limited to only about 2 and a half peak years by a gambling scandal and knee injuries, he was a great player who electrified everyone who saw him -- he's the Bill Walton of the ABA. Adrian Dantley was one of the greatest scorers ever. High volume at efficiency only approached by the Charles Barkley/Reggie Miller's of the world. That's it though, as his defense and team ethos were frequently questioned.

At guard, Hal Greer was a consistent 20ppg threat in the 60s, Chauncey Billups one of the most efficient guards of the last decade with his 3 point shooting, ability to draw fouls, and extremely low turnover rates, and Mark Price was another efficient shooting PG though without the defense of Greer and Billups.


Peak is Connie Hawkins but that peak was so short . . . Best numbers is Adrian Dantley who carries his own baggage . . . Kemp and Lucas both had major drawbacks . . . . Greer, Price, and Billups were super solid but not dominators. I rate Lucas over Kemp, Lucas's weak defense isn't as bad as Kemp's immaturity while Lucas is the better offensive player and rebounder; Billups over Price and Greer for 3 factors (a) more efficient scorer even relative to league, (b) clearly better defender, (c) playoff performance . . . Billups over Lucas for playoffs and defense as well.

So, Hawkins's 2.5 dominant years v. Billups's 8 very good years with a bonus for beating the annoying and arrogant 04 Lakers.

TENTATIVE VOTE: Chauncey Billups

[penbeast0]

Point Guards -- not seeing these guys yet, the other positions are stronger
Tim Hardaway
Lenny Wilkens
Dennis Johnson
Tony Parker?
Gus Williams?

Shooting Guards -- About ready for any of these guys except Richmond
Joe Dumars
Bill Sharman
Earl Monroe
Chris Mullin
Mitch Richmond

Shooting Forward -- Probably the deepest spot left:
Shawn Marion
Connie Hawkins
Cliff Hagan
Carmelo Anthony? Dandridge/Wilkes/Wise?

Power Forward -- Not sure how much to value Paul Silas/BuckWilliams/Bill Bridges types
Larry Nance
Terry Cummings
Elton Brand
Amare Stoudamire
Paul Silas/Dave DeBusschere/Maurice Lucas/Buck Williams -- the bangers

Centers: see no real argument for Brad Daugherty over Daniels, Sikma, Johnston, or even Bellamy
Mel Daniels
Jack Sikma
Neil Johnston
Walt Bellamy
Yao Ming

Looking at the candidates -- Marion and Nance give the best combination of longevity and superb 2-way play (very similar careers). For peak, Connie Hawkins was the best player to play in the ABA pre Erving (and yes, that includes Rick Barry) but his tragic story kept him out of the NBA until age 27 after a serious knee injury (the first of several). Mel Daniels won TWO MVP's and 3 championships in the ABA -- yes it was an inferior league and his career wasn't that long but it was better ball than the NBA in the 50s and he was basically Alonzo Mourning as a player with better rebounding but less shotblocking -- similar offense and attitude. He'd be a star even today though probably not a 20ppg scorer.

Love to see more analysis of Dumars v. Sharman, Dandridge v. Hagan, Nance v. Marion, TCummings v. EBrand.


Peak year comps:

Sharman 1956 37.5min 3.5reb 4.5ast 19.1pts .508ts% (5th in MVP) -- league ave 99.0pts on .458ts%
Dumars 1991 38.1min 2.3reb 5.5ast 20.4pts .552ts% (10th in MVP) -- league ave 106.3pts on .534ts%
adjusted, Sharman is clearly the better offensive player; as Dumars is clearly better on D

Hagan 1959 37.5min 10.9reb 3.4ast 23.7pts .516ts% (9th in MVP) -- league 108.2pts on .457ts%
Dandridge 1979 33.7min 5.7reb 4.7ast 20.4pts .553ts% (5th in MVP) -- league 110.3pts on .530ts%
Hagan looks like the better offensive player, Dandridge the better defender though it is closer

Nance 1987 37.2min 8.7reb 3.4ast 22.5pts .591ts% (no MVP votes) -- league 109.9pts on .538ts%
Marion 2006 40.3min 11.8reb 1.8ast 21.8pts .607ts% (.001 MVP votes) -- league 97.0pts on .537ts%
I'm tempted to use 01 or 03 for Marion since they are nearly as good and without Nash but 06 was the year he carried the team with Amare injured. Marion is clearly better this year.

Cummings 1985 34.5min 9.1reb 2.9ast 23.6pts .536ts% (5th in MVP) -- league 110.8pts on .543ts%
E. Brand 2006 39.4min 10.0reb 2.6ast 24.7pts on .580ts% (7th in MVP) -- league 97.0pts on .537ts%
Brand looks better here but Cummings peak was longer.

I go back and forth among several candidates -- Sharman, Hagan, Marion, Nance, and Daniels being the top of my list. For now, I will tentatively go for Shawn Marion -- people see only his lack of handles and forget just how great he was at everything else. Basically LeBron without the handles and with better rebounding but willing to go for any of the 5 plus willing to listen to cases for other players.

NOMINATE Shawn Marion

[Dr Positivity]

Vote Hal Greer (btw I still can't see his picture)

Nominate Deron Williams just to try and create some runoff for these guys

[therealbig3]

Vote: Hal Greer
Nominate: Larry Nance

BTW, penbeast0, good post on Marion in the last thread, I was going to respond, but I'm feeling a little lazy right now, I'll try to respond a little later.

[drza]

Hey Penbeast, you didn't count my nomination in the last thread. I nominated Ben Wallace, not Mark Price, which if I'm not mistaken means that Wallace should be the new nominee in this thread.

[Doctor MJ]

Nash comes in and Marion's efficiency does go way up but, he's not know for being a superefficient score like a Bobby Jones . . . Marion is known for being a SF who can be a 20/10 guy within the context of an offense focused on other people (Starbury, Amare, etc.) while providing great rebounding (one of the best SFs of the modern era) and very good defense (particularly help defense).

I don't disagree with this, but when you compare that to, say, Elton Brand, doesn't that make him come up short?

Brand's a guy who can be a 20/10...with everyone trying to stop him on the worst run team in sports. He's only a good rebounder and big man defender who is a shot blocker. Fine to give Marion the nod on the defensive side of the ball, but that difference between being the man and needing to hide behind two big brothers on offense in order to be an efficient scorer to me is a big deal. And of course, the fact is that Marion wasn't even happy in that peak role because his ego didn't like people calling his big brothers his big brothers so he pouted his way to journeyman status.

[Doctor MJ]

Vote: Connie Hawkins

I'm really drinking the Connie kool-aid right now, and honestly, am looking for others to debate with me. Does anyone doubt that Connie had the highest peak of the nominees? Please chime in.

The thing I keep thinking about is that fact that while his peak as a superstar is short, he still ends up with career Win Shares well north of some others we've already voted in because he continues being a productive player for a good while after that.

Beyond that, I'll admit that I'm probably feeling a bit of a tiebreaker nudge going to Connie because of his situation. This is a guy who missed out on a longer professional career because of bizarre circumstances: A point shaving scandal...in college...while he was a freshman and thus not allowed to play...and later exonerated...none of which would even be an issue nowadays anyway because the NBA has guys who took money for college ball in the league as we speak. And we basically know he was as good as his ABA levels for years playing elsewhere.

Add all that in, plus decent WS longevity anyway, I just can't get too worked up about his lack of longevity. Not saying I'd ignore it, but being really rigid about it just seems like it accomplishes nothing.

Nominate: Bill Sharman

Will stick with Sharm. The choices are so hard right now, I could go in many directions. Seems like as good a time as any to bring this old-time in. Fun fact: Cousy & Sharm start the NBA at the same time, both play in Boston, both average comparable playoff scoring volume (though Cousy peaks higher because he likes to call his own number), but Sharman's efficiency is 7.5% higher. I'll say it again: I think Sharman could have easily put up bigger numbers back then but instead playing a great fit role for an enormously successful team - and I think Sharman fits in more easily to the modern NBA than Cousy, or Schayes for that matter.

[ronnymac2]

Vote: Connie Hawkins

I'm really drinking the Connie kool-aid right now, and honestly, am looking for others to debate with me. Does anyone doubt that Connie had the highest peak of the nominees? Please chime in.

I don't think I do. His 1970 NBA season makes a believer out of me. He was a fantastic all-around player that year and capped it off with an impressive performance in the playoffs. I believe it was against the Lakers. 25/14/6 with bad field goal percentage, but I'm willing to overlook that, what with his creative abilities and it being a small sample size. He does not appear to have an inherent flaw in his actual game.

Super ABA years plus a few all-star seasons is solid enough to warrant this spot.




It should have went Brand/Marion/Bobby Jones. Jones is a selection I'll likely rant about after the project is over. Man, I can see that rant coming. It's going to be beautiful.

People should really start considering DeBusschere and Horace Grant and Mo Lucas. I know we all love Bill Walton, but Maurice Lucas was a huge part of that 1977 Portland team. He was a 20/10 Charles Oakley with a better jumper and nice passing. A true enforcer.

[ronnymac2]

Vote: Connie Hawkins

Nominate: Deron Williams

[Doctor MJ]

He does not appear to have an inherent flaw in his actual game.

Cool, yeah, I look at Connie and compare him to other 1960s players. Other than the Big 4, no one is clearly ahead of him at peak, and Connie doesn't seem to have the same kind delusional self-confidence that leads many volume scorers (like Baylor and Barry) toward inefficiency. Pretty dang impressive for a player ranked no better (and maybe worse) than #78.

It should have went Brand/Marion/Bobby Jones. Jones is a selection I'll likely rant about after the project is over. Man, I can see that rant coming. It's going to be beautiful.

Looking forward to it. Obviously as a Jones supporter, I think some really Wow! effect on his teams with the way he played that the other two guys didn't typically have. Others understandably aren't sold.

People should really start considering DeBusschere and Horace Grant and Mo Lucas. I know we all love Bill Walton, but Maurice Lucas was a huge part of that 1977 Portland team. He was a 20/10 Charles Oakley with a better jumper and nice passing. A true enforcer.

Two good names to bring up. DeBuss has been on my mind for a while, I just happen to keep picking others over him. I'd forgot about Lucas, and I respect him a lot, so I look forward to analyzing his career further. Definitely not clear cut that he's top 100 though.

[lukekarts]

Vote: Hal Greer
Nominate: Shawn Marion

[lorak]

vote: Connie
nominate: Sharman

[JordansBulls]

Vote: Shawn Kemp
Nominate: Brad Daugherty

[penbeast0]

Problem with Connie is the problem I had with Walton . . . you are really talking about a 2 year peak (1 for Walton); he was only a top level player for that long, and while he was 1st team All-NBA in 1970, he wasn't a legit MVP candidate, more an Amare Stoudamire level 1st teamer so you are talking about the one super ABA season. That's just not enough to put him over for me yet though I can see people buying into it.

drza, sorry, will look into it this afternoon.

[Doctor MJ]

Problem with Connie is the problem I had with Walton . . . you are really talking about a 2 year peak (1 for Walton); he was only a top level player for that long, and while he was 1st team All-NBA in 1970, he wasn't a legit MVP candidate, more an Amare Stoudamire level 1st teamer so you are talking about the one super ABA season. That's just not enough to put him over for me yet though I can see people buying into it.

drza, sorry, will look into it this afternoon.

Can't pretend longevity isn't an issue, but with Walton you're literally talking about a guy who is on the mapped for playing in 2 seasons, about 4000 minutes total. He never broke 4 WS another time in his prime.

Connie by contrast broke 7 WS 5 times in the NBA alone, which is why even not counting his ABA time he has more Win Shares (and more minutes played) than Walton. So longevity-wise it's really not the same. Turns out Connie, though he was wrongfully kept from far more, still managed to have a pretty decently sized career.

Not Walton peak? No, but Barry peak? Sure. Baylor peak? Absolutely. So you got a guy peak like a Top 30 all-time guy with 7 years of 7 WS-ish type play. Compare that to a Penny Hardaway who only broke 7 WS 5 times, or even Chris Webber who did it 6 times. Doesn't look so bad does it?

[penbeast0]

The issue isn't his career length, it's his peak length. I remember seeing Connie Hawkins play in the early seventies and it was a massive disappointment. Here was this great dunker and he was Phoenix level Grant Hill without 3 point shooting -- still a solid player but not NBA Top 100 level. His peak was only 2.5 years, as if Grant Hill collapsed in his second season then had one comeback year then collapsed again and that was his entire pre-Phoenix career (except that Hawk was more dominant than peak Hill)

I also don't see Deron as having done much careerwise yet. He and Daugherty both, potential to do a lot but hasn't done it yet.

[Laimbeer]

Vote - Lucas
Nominate - Daniels

[penbeast0]

VOTE
Billups – penbeast0
Greer – therealbig3, lukekarts
Hawkins – DoctorMJ, ronnymac2, DavidStern
Shawn Kemp – JordansBulls
Jerry Lucas -- Laimbeer
NOMINATE
Marion – penbeast0, lukekarts
Deron Williams – Dr Mufasa, ronnymac2
Nance -- therealbig3
Sharman – DoctorMJ, DavidStern
Daugherty – JordansBulls
Mel Daniels -- Laimbeer

[Dr Positivity]

I voted Greer