RealGM Top 100 List #80

[penbeast0]

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days -- Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:

Larry Nance

1x NBA All-Def 1st team
2x NBA All-Def 2nd team
3x All-Star


Bill Sharman

Hall of Fame 1976
4x All-NBA 1st team
3x All-NBA 2nd team
4x NBA Champion
8x All-Star


Ben Wallace

3x All-NBA 2nd team
2x All-NBA 3rd team
NBA Champion 2004
4x Defensive Player of the Year
5x All-Defense 1st team
1x All-Defense 2nd team
4x All-Star


Jerry Lucas

3x All-NBA 1st team
2x All-NBA 2nd team
1 NBA Championship 1973
Rookie of the Year 1964
7x All-Star


Connie Hawkins

Hall of Fame 1992
ABA MVP 1968
2x All-ABA 1st Team
1x All-NBA 1st Team
1x ABA Champion
5x All-Star (1 in ABA)


Shawn Kemp

3x All-NBA 2nd team
6x All-Star


Adrian Dantley

Hall of Fame 2008
2x All-NBA 2nd Team
Rookie of the Year 1977
6x All-Star


Chauncey Billups

1x ALL-NBA 2nd
2x ALL-NBA 3rd
2x All-Defense 2nd
Finals MVP 1987
NBA CHampion
5x All-STar

[penbeast0]

VOTE:

Ben Wallace, Larry Nance, Shawn Kemp and Jerry Lucas were big F/Cs. Wallace was great defensively but one of the worst offensive players ever. Nance was a great shotblocker and dunker though he was rail thin -- he's been called the most underrated player in NBA history so often he's in danger of being overrated. Kemp was athletic and active defensively although foul prone and immature; Lucas was a great rebounder with outstanding shooting range who the voters of his day put into the HOF over Willis Reed among others; not strong defensively and numbers obsessed.

Adrian Dantley was one of the greatest scorers ever. High volume at efficiency only approached by the Charles Barkley/Reggie Miller's of the world. That's it though, as his defense and team ethos were frequently questioned.

At guard, Bill Sharman was the prototype spot up shooter, Chauncey Billups one of the most efficient guards of the last decade with his 3 point shooting, ability to draw fouls, and extremely low turnover rates.


Best numbers is Adrian Dantley who carries his own baggage . . . peak is Connie Hawkins but it was an ABA peak (MVP), Mel Daniels has two of them and he isn't nominated yet . . . Wallace, Kemp, and Lucas all had major drawbacks . . . . Nance, Sharman, and Billups were super solid but not dominators. I rate Lucas over Kemp, Wallace, and Nance, Lucas's weak defense isn't as bad as Kemp's immaturity or Wallace's total lack of offense while Nance doesn't rebound like the others (still, he could be the best but 3 All-star games, no all-Pro, and only 3 all-defense is weak accolades).

Actually Billups v. Mark Price is very interesting. Statistically they are almost identical -- they score around the same amount of points, have virtually identical assist/turnover ratios, similar playoff numbers too though Billups has a slight edge, he also has a longevity edge. But, the key difference is that Billups was a good defender; Price was not.

VOTE: Chauncey Billups

[penbeast0]

Point Guards -- not seeing these guys yet, the other positions are stronger
Tim Hardaway
Lenny Wilkens
Dennis Johnson
Tony Parker?
Gus Williams?

Shooting Guards -- some solid choices here
Joe Dumars
Earl Monroe
Chris Mullin
Mitch Richmond
Paul Westphal/Walter Davis?

Shooting Forward -- Probably the deepest spot left:
Shawn Marion
Cliff Hagan
Carmelo Anthony
Bob Dandridge
Wilkes/Wise?

Power Forward -- Not sure how much to value Paul Silas/BuckWilliams/Bill Bridges types
Terry Cummings
Elton Brand
Amare Stoudamire
Paul Silas/Dave DeBusschere/Maurice Lucas/Buck Williams -- the bangers

Centers: see no real argument for Brad Daugherty over Daniels, Sikma, Johnston, or even Bellamy
Mel Daniels
Jack Sikma
Neil Johnston
Walt Bellamy
Yao Ming

Looking at the candidates -- Marion and Nance give the best combination of longevity and superb 2-way play (very similar careers). For peak, Mel Daniels won TWO MVP's and 3 championships in the ABA -- yes it was an inferior league and his career wasn't that long but it was better ball than the NBA in the 50s and he was basically Alonzo Mourning as a player with better rebounding but less shotblocking -- similar offense and attitude. He'd be a stud even today though probably not a 20ppg scorer.

Love to see more analysis of THardaway v. Wilkens, GWilliams v. DJohnson, Dumars v. Monroe, Mullins v. Richmond, Hagan v. Dandridge, Marion v. Carmelo, Silas v. DeBusschere, TCummings v. EBrand, MDaniels v. N.Johnston.


Some Peak year comps:

Hagan 1959 37.5min 10.9reb 3.4ast 23.7pts .516ts% (9th in MVP) -- league 108.2pts on .457ts%
Dandridge 1979 33.7min 5.7reb 4.7ast 20.4pts .553ts% (5th in MVP) -- league 110.3pts on .530ts%
Hagan looks like the better offensive player, Dandridge the better defender though it is closer

Nance 1987 37.2min 8.7reb 3.4ast 22.5pts .591ts% (no MVP votes) -- league 109.9pts on .538ts%
Marion 2006 40.3min 11.8reb 1.8ast 21.8pts .607ts% (.001 MVP votes) -- league 97.0pts on .537ts%
I'm tempted to use 01 or 03 for Marion since they are nearly as good and without Nash but 06 was the year he carried the team with Amare injured. Marion is clearly better this year.

Cummings 1985 34.5min 9.1reb 2.9ast 23.6pts .536ts% (5th in MVP) -- league 110.8pts on .543ts%
E. Brand 2006 39.4min 10.0reb 2.6ast 24.7pts on .580ts% (7th in MVP) -- league 97.0pts on .537ts%
Brand looks better here but Cummings peak was longer.

I go back and forth among several candidates -- Dumars, Marion, and Daniels being the top of my list. For now, I will tentatively go for Shawn Marion -- people see only his lack of handles and forget just how great he was at everything else. Basically LeBron without the handles and with better rebounding but willing to go for any of the 5 plus willing to listen to cases for other players.

NOMINATE Shawn Marion

[JordansBulls]

Vote: Shawn Kemp
Nominate: Brad Daugherty

[ElGee]

Umm. I voted for mark price last thread. And said if deron Williams had traction I would nominate him. I think thread 79 should still be open...

[penbeast0]

why? And for that matter, can you take a look at Tim Hardaway and Lenny Wilkens against Deron for the PG spot? I'd be very interested in your take on it.

[Dr Positivity]

Vote Price

Nominate Deron

[bastillon]

can I join voting panel at this point ? I've been around for a couple of threads now.

[ElGee]

why? And for that matter, can you take a look at Tim Hardaway and Lenny Wilkens against Deron for the PG spot? I'd be very interested in your take on it.

Because Connie Hawkins didn't get the most votes yet he was pushed through?

Perhaps I wasn't clear originally -- you didn't count my vote...

[therealbig3]

Yeah, either Price gets in over Hawkins, or both of them are still up for voting, since penbeast0 switching his vote at the end would have tied it.

If both of them are still on the board:

Vote: Price
Nominate: Brand

If Price gets in:

Vote: Hawkins
Nominate: Brand

[penbeast0]

Sorry, missed that one . . . not the first, probably wont be the last with 20 threads to go. And no, if there's a majority I'm not switching my vote to make a tie . . . this time.

So, Connie Hawkins is eligible for a vote; Mark Price is number 79 on our list.

[Doctor MJ]

Sorry, missed that one . . . not the first, probably wont be the last with 20 threads to go. And no, if there's a majority I'm not switching my vote to make a tie . . . this time.

So, Connie Hawkins is eligible for a vote; Mark Price is number 79 on our list.

Makes sense.

And btw folks, let me take a moment here: Running one of these projects is an absolute grind and beast has been at it for 6 months. Any mistake and he has to here about it and figure out a fix on the fly.

My thanks to beast for doing the heavy lifting to that we can all enjoy this.

[Doctor MJ]

And with that:

Vote: Connie Hawkins

One more time folks, what do you believe about how good Connie was without thinking about his career length? Now keep that in mind, and realize that he had more WS's than Price or several others not on this list - how much are willing to factor in longevity here?

And I'll also say again: Connie's real lack of longevity, at least as far as what makes it actually "weak", is not based on a physical weakness but based on the NBA making a bad decision that they later admitted (while paying a large amount of money) was completely without basis.

Nominate: Elton Brand

Just a solid, solid player. Two-way big man, with a great team-oriented attitude. Had he had the supporting cast Jermaine O'Neal did in Indiana, he'd have been an MVP candidate. Instead he played for the worst run organization in all of sports.

[Laimbeer]

Vote Lucas
Nominate Monroe

[penbeast0]

And with that:

. . .
Nominate: Elton Brand

Just a solid, solid player. Two-way big man, with a great team-oriented attitude. Had he had the supporting cast Jermaine O'Neal did in Indiana, he'd have been an MVP candidate. Instead he played for the worst run organization in all of sports.

Would that be Jerry Krause and the Bulls or Donald Sterling and the Clippers.

[Doctor MJ]

Would that be Jerry Krause and the Bulls or Donald Sterling and the Clippers.

Oh wow. Good point. I was referring to Sterling, but it's true that the Bulls in the segue from the Jordan era to the um, Hinrich? era was even worse. That though I feel like was a one time thing brought on by a certain time of hubris. You've got to have some serious longevity at sucking before I put you up there with Sterling generally.

[bastillon]

I'm on a pannel now, thanks to penbeast's decision.

Brand is absolutely not a 2-way big. poor defensive rebounder, undersized and makes small positive impact defensive on APM studies, while sometimes measuring out as a negative as well. Brand is an excellent jumpshooting PF, great offensive rebounder. deserves a mention but defense was not his strength. Brand's problem is longetivity. he was making very poor impact in his first couple of years and he had basically a 5-year stretch in 02-07. I can't see him as a better player than Rasheed who played for 15 years and stayed at high impact level for longer period of time than Brand (about 8 years). he kills Brand in APM metrics, was a MAJOR part of Pistons 04-08 and was TRULY a 2-way big. the debate Brand vs Sheed is about preferences. Brand put up bigger numbers on poor teams and didn't do much to influence team defense, whereas Sheed was excellent defensive player who made big impact on great teams...and did it for longer. I think Sheed's really underrated here.

vote: Shawn Kemp. very underrated player. perhaps the best player on mid 90s Sonics. basically he was Amare who could be the defensive co-anchor as well. Sonics had top defense in the league when he was around, then fell off a cliff when he left the team. he's also an improved playoff performer, putting up 20/10 in the postseason on excellent efficiency (60% TS). want WS ? Kemp broke 6 WS for 9 straight seasons, 10 WS for 4 straight seasons and that's while playing moderate mpg as his WS48 is superstar level. during his 5-year peak with the Sonics they averaged unparalleled 7.5 SRS. I don't think there was another team in NBA's history averaging SRS of that level for this long.

nominate: Rasheed Wallace.

[therealbig3]

I'm on a pannel now, thanks to penbeast's decision.

Brand is absolutely not a 2-way big. poor defensive rebounder, undersized and makes small positive impact defensive on APM studies, while sometimes measuring out as a negative as well. Brand is an excellent jumpshooting PF, great offensive rebounder. deserves a mention but defense was not his strength. Brand's problem is longetivity. he was making very poor impact in his first couple of years and he had basically a 5-year stretch in 02-07. I can't see him as a better player than Rasheed who played for 15 years and stayed at high impact level for longer period of time than Brand (about 8 years). he kills Brand in APM metrics, was a MAJOR part of Pistons 04-08 and was TRULY a 2-way big. the debate Brand vs Sheed is about preferences. Brand put up bigger numbers on poor teams and didn't do much to influence team defense, whereas Sheed was excellent defensive player who made big impact on great teams...and did it for longer. I think Sheed's really underrated here.

vote: Shawn Kemp. very underrated player. perhaps the best player on mid 90s Sonics. basically he was Amare who could be the defensive co-anchor as well. Sonics had top defense in the league when he was around, then fell off a cliff when he left the team. he's also an improved playoff performer, putting up 20/10 in the postseason on excellent efficiency (60% TS). want WS ? Kemp broke 6 WS for 9 straight seasons, 10 WS for 4 straight seasons and that's while playing moderate mpg as his WS48 is superstar level. during his 5-year peak with the Sonics they averaged unparalleled 7.5 SRS. I don't think there was another team in NBA's history averaging SRS of that level for this long.

nominate: Rasheed Wallace.

Not true, Rasheed and Brand are very evenly matched in the multi-year APM studies. And Brand always measures out as a positive on defense. One-year studies are virtually useless to me.

And Brand and Rasheed are pretty similar as defensive rebounders.

[bastillon]

my take on Kemp vs Hawk:

-Hawk's numbers in his NBA's first year should be analysed in particular as he wasn't that much better than in the ABA days and that league was far inferior. either way, Connie was never a complete player some make him out to be. his reb rate was very poor, even in the ABA days peaking at 12.9 (Kemp's at 18-20 in his prime).

-the big difference between them statistically comes from the fact that Hawk played a lot more mins in much higher pace. Hawk's pace-adjusted numbers aren't nearly as eye-catching as we would think. pace in the early 70s was about 105-110 if it was comparable to the mid 70s. Kemp played in a slower environment, at about 90-95 pace. Hawk often played over 40 mpg, Kemp was low 30s guy. Kemp's numbers per minute are in superstar category.

-while Hawk regressed during the postseason, Kemp was one of the few guys who improved bc he played more and was more dangerous when he was motivated to play well. one of the few guys who stood up to Olajuwon and played extremely well. absolutely abused Bulls in '96 finals (and earlier swept Hakeem in '96 WCSFs). this is a guy who handles the pressure particularly well and should get credit accordingly.

-Connie was not a force defensively. that's why I'm opposing to his selection at this point. I'm not a fan of offensive bigs in general, to me bigs are only high impact players on great teams if they can defend well. Kemp was a great defender. he played on Sonics for a number of years, they regressed a lot without his defensive presence and meanwhile Cleveland '98 became top1 defensive team with Kemp as their co-anchor.

Hawk can't be a valuable asset on top NBA teams because he's offensively oriented big without defensive and rebounding supremacy that Kemp provides. even though you can blame Kemp for not playing high mins in the RS, there were players like Bobby Jones or Manu already voted in, and Kemp's postseason mpg was a lot higher than these guys. with Hawk we can assume he could be a major part of a great team, Kemp WAS at least 2nd best player of a team that went on an unparalleled run of 7.50 SRS avg for 5 years. I get that Hawk was a great offensive player, but between pace and high mins typical for that era, injury concerns, lowered postseason impact, poor rebounding and unimpressive defense there are a lot thing that make me sceptical of his alleged great impact. was he at all-star level for a couple of years ? alright, but nothing more.

[Doctor MJ]

was TRULY a 2-way big. the debate Brand vs Sheed is about preferences. Brand put up bigger numbers on poor teams

Sheed was a guy who never scored 20 PPG and shot inefficiently, and as his career went on spent more and more time dinking around the outside. (Seriously, a big man shooting 5 3's per game who can't hit 80% of his free throws? Dirk doesn't even take that many). You've got some nerve to say that that qualifies him as a 2-way player, but Brand wasn't good enough on defense to qualify, and that's before we even get into Sheed being a total headcase that made cease to function at all unless there were sounder personalities in the locker room to keep him in line.