RealGM Top 100 List #82

[penbeast0]

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days -- Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:

Elton Brand

Rookie of the Year 00
2x All-Star


Brad Daugherty

1x NBA 3rd Team
5x All-Star


Larry Nance

1x NBA All-Def 1st team
2x NBA All-Def 2nd team
3x All-Star


Bill Sharman

Hall of Fame 1976
4x All-NBA 1st team
3x All-NBA 2nd team
4x NBA Champion
8x All-Star


Jerry Lucas

3x All-NBA 1st team
2x All-NBA 2nd team
1 NBA Championship 1973
Rookie of the Year 1964
7x All-Star



Shawn Kemp

3x All-NBA 2nd team
6x All-Star


Adrian Dantley

Hall of Fame 2008
2x All-NBA 2nd Team
Rookie of the Year 1977
6x All-Star


Chauncey Billups

1x ALL-NBA 2nd
2x ALL-NBA 3rd
2x All-Defense 2nd
Finals MVP 1987
NBA CHampion
5x All-STar

[penbeast0]

VOTE:

Brad Daugherty, Elton Brand, Larry Nance, Shawn Kemp and Jerry Lucas were bigs with high efficiency Daugherty was a below average defender and average rebounder who shot well and passed extremely well. Brand and Nance were solid; Brand was the stronger while Nance was a great shotblocker and dunker though he was rail thin -- he's been called the most underrated player in NBA history so often he's in danger of being overrated. Kemp was athletic and active defensively although foul prone and immature; Lucas was a great rebounder with outstanding shooting range who the voters of his day put into the HOF over Willis Reed among others; not strong defensively and numbers obsessed.

Adrian Dantley was one of the greatest scorers ever. High volume at efficiency only approached by the Charles Barkley/Reggie Miller's of the world. That's it though, as his defense and team ethos were frequently questioned.

At guard, Bill Sharman was the prototype spot up shooter, Chauncey Billups one of the most efficient guards of the last decade with his 3 point shooting, ability to draw fouls, and extremely low turnover rates.


Best numbers is Adrian Dantley who carries his own baggage . . . Daugherty, Kemp, and Lucas all had major drawbacks . . . . Brand, Nance, Sharman, and Billups were super solid but not dominators. I rate Kemp over Daugherty, Wallace, Brand, and maybe Nance; Billups over Sharman and Billups over Kemp for his intelligence and the finals win over that superstar laden Lakers squad.

Actually Billups v. Mark Price is very interesting. Statistically they are almost identical -- they score around the same amount of points, have virtually identical assist/turnover ratios, similar playoff numbers too though Billups has a slight edge, he also has a longevity edge. But, the key difference is that Billups was a good defender; Price was not.

VOTE: Chauncey Billups

[penbeast0]

Tim Hardaway
Lenny Wilkens
Dennis Johnson
Tony Parker?
Gus Williams?
Norm Van Lier?

Shooting Guards -- some solid choices here
Joe Dumars
Earl Monroe
Chris Mullin
Mitch Richmond
Paul Westphal?
Walter Davis?

Shooting Forward -- Probably the deepest spot left:
Shawn Marion
Cliff Hagan
Carmelo Anthony
Bob Dandridge
Jamaal Wilkes?
Willie Wise?

Power Forward -- Not sure how much to value Paul Silas/BuckWilliams/Bill Bridges types
Terry Cummings
Elton Brand
Amare Stoudamire
Paul Silas/Dave DeBusschere/Maurice Lucas/Buck Williams -- the bangers

Centers: see no real argument for Brad Daugherty over Daniels, Sikma, Johnston, or even Bellamy
Mel Daniels
Jack Sikma
Neil Johnston
Walt Bellamy
Yao Ming

Looking at the candidates -- Marion gives the best combination of longevity and superb 2-way play. For peak, Mel Daniels won TWO MVP's and 3 championships in the ABA -- yes it was an inferior league and his career wasn't that long but it was better ball than the NBA in the 50s and he was basically Alonzo Mourning as a player with better rebounding but less shotblocking -- similar offense and attitude. He'd be a stud even today though probably not a 20ppg scorer.

Love to see more analysis of THardaway v. LWilkens, GWilliams v. DJohnson, Dumars v. Monroe, Mullins v. Richmond, Hagan v. Dandridge, Marion v. Carmelo, Silas v. DeBusschere, TCummings v. EBrand, MDaniels v. N.Johnston.

VOTE MEL DANIELS

[Dr Positivity]

Vote Brand

Nominate Deron Williams

Was between Brand and Nance, both lack the holes that guys like Kemp (stable-ness), Lucas (D), and Dantley (ball movement) have - I'll take Brand's extra offense and one year was a top 7 guy

[Dipper 13]

I wonder how Odom was being discussed in the previous thread over a far superior F in Chet Walker. Perhaps because his team was able to defend the championship? If the '68 Sixers were healthy, Walker would also be a back to back champion. No doubt they were the best single season team to not win. There were times during the NY series when the hobbled Sixers were getting killed on the boards, as Bellamy & Reed were feasting on the offensive glass. They played Games 4, 5, and 6 consecutively. No days off in between.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3jIemiXiPs#t=16m15s



DELAWARE COUNTY - April 13, 1968

Club Rated 'Most Courageous' By Hannum as Injuries Mount

PHILADELPHIA (AP) - The Philadelphia 76ers could be billed as the best touring troupe In basketball. All they need is a doctor to complete the cast.

Going into the fourth game Sunday of their National Basketball Association playoff series with the Boston Celtics, the 76ers are hurting from head to toe.

So what's new? Injuries have plagued the defending NBA champions since the opening of the season.

"Alex Hannum says this is the most courageous team he's ever coached," says Harvey Pollack, the 76ers' statistician. "The locker room looks like a hospital ward every time I walk in."

Pollack ticked off some of the cases, which read like a medical diary:

-Wilt Chamberlain (partial tear of the calf muscle in his right leg, a strain in his right thigh and an injured right toe):

-Wally Jones (injured knee cartilage):

-Luke Jackson (pulled hamstring muscle):

-Hal Greer (bursitus in his right knee):

-And, Billy Cunningham (broken right wrist).

"That's not mentioning (rookie) Jim Reid who had a knee operation after injuring it the first game of the season," said Pollack, "and Larry Costello," the veteran guard who tore an ankle tendon after one-third of the season was gone.

The most recent injury was to Chamberlain in Friday night's Eastern Division playoff contest with the Celtics. The dipper was given whirlpool treatments for the calf muscle tear, but Pollack wasn't sure how he'd respond.

The 76ers have nine men in uniform for the best-of-seven playoffs, which they lead, two games to one. But whether they'll have anybody left for the finals against the Western Division winner is anybody's guess.

The team's troubles multiplied in the Eastern Division semifinals against the New York Knickerbockers. Cunningham broke his wrist, knocking him out for the season, Jones and Jackson suffered their injuries and Chamberlain aggravated his perennial toe injury.

And when Boston thumped the 76ers in the opening game of their playoffs here last Friday, some predicted a quick knockout of the injury-riddled champs.

But Philadelphia whacked Boston two straight, including Thursday where an injury actually helped the 76ers cause, points out Pollack.

How so?

"Well, Chamberlain was hurt and he couldn't turn around to score-so he kept feeding Greer, and he scored 31," explained the statistician.





DELAWARE COUNTY - April 4, 1968

There they are—the Philadelphia 76ers. See them gulp pills. Notice their bandages. Watch how they limp. Look at how they struggle.

They are sick and battered invalids. Pain and fatigue stagger hand in hand. They do not belong on a basketball court, they belong in wheelchairs.

There are only eight of them left now, and seven are ailing. They're wearing so much tape -they look like mummies in short pants. Do you wonder how they keep playing? Or why?

* * *

The 76ers will return to their rightful place at the Spectrum Friday night to meet the Boston Celtics in the Eastern Division finals.

From a New York viewpoint, the older 76ers should not have beaten the youthful, deep Knicks in the semifinals. After, the Knicks evened the series at 2-2, New York newspapers had buried the 76ers. The act seemed to b e contagious.

Loyalists in Philadelphia started believing it, too. But it was mostly the New York press. And when the 76ers resisted the early burial last Sunday, the New York press became cranky.

The sour grapes began to spill. A sportswriter who is one of the very biggest in New York City characterized the mood when he spent a greater part of the afternoon last Sunday complaining loudly and bitterly about the location of the TV cameras during foul shots. As a result, several heated arguments between TV and NBA officials and the writer developed along the sidelines.

It was exemplary of the New York mood, which was soon compounded by the 76ers' demoralizing 123-105 victory.

* * *

The turning point of the series was Sunday. The Knicks, feeling they could take advantage of the 76ers' badly battered and undermanned squad, suffered a psychological breakdown after the battered and undermanned 76ers destroyed them in the fifth game.

Then in the third game in three days Monday — an incredible piece of scheduling by the NBA—the 76ers administered the coupe de grace as the Knicks fell apartafter blowing a big early lead.

Winning the rough, bruising series with a team riddled by injuries and its bench practically stripped may — under the circumstances — be one of the most remarkable feats in NBA history.

* * *

A TEAM playing under these conditions should not be expected to survive such a series. Have you ever tried driving a car on three wheels?"

But the fact that the 76ers did win was a glowing tribute to the sheer determination and dedication of a proud team; one whose supreme pride shunned defeat in the face of most dire circumstances.

You had to be there to appreciate it . . . the way Hal Greer and Wally Jones ran and shot on battered knees; the way Wilt Chamberlain played the middle with a volcano in his stomach and an injured toe shot full of needles; the way Johnny Green kept hustling although long past the point of exhaustion; the way Luke Jackson, Chet Walker and Matt Goukas played their guts out despite assorted injuries.

It was an effort propelled by a strong motivation; dedication to a mission known as winning. These were driven men. Old pros who refused to buckle.

The Knick series can be forgotten now. The 76ers face a new challenge; one that is much bigger. Can they produce another maximum effort against Boston?

* * *

THERE THEY are — the Philadelphia 76ers. See how they scrap. Watch how they claw.

Notice their contempt for adversity.





Fond Du Lac Commonwealth Reporter - March 30, 1968

Injuries Plague 76ers

The Philadelphia 76ers, a team some rank as the physically strongest in professional basketball history, are in trouble. The trouble is injuries—to handyman Bill Cunningham and starting forward Luke Jackson, and to a lesser degree the two standouts of the defending world champions, Wilt Chamberlain and Hal Greer.

Cunningham broke his right wrist in the double overtime, 138-132 victory over New York which gave the 76ers a 2-1 lead in the best-of-seven series Wednesday night at Philadelphia. Cunningham shoots southpaw, but the injury has kayoed him for the year.

Jackson, the brutish, 6-foot-9 forward who supplies Wilt with rebounding assistance, has a hamstring pull, and was a doubtful performer when the series resumed at Madison Square Garden today.

Chamberlain has been taking cortisone shots in his right toe, and Greer, the middle-distance shooting star, has a knee which troubles him and on which he wears a brace.

Wally Wonder

It appears that Wally Jones, Greer's partner at guard who unblushingly dubbed himself "Wally Wonder," and Chet Walker, the smooth cornerman, are the only healthy 76er starters now.

The team, which ended Boston's domination last winter and then went on to stop San Francisco in the final playoff, was conceded as good a chance this season before the injuries set in. To make matters worse, the current opponent— the Knicks—is a young team which is just starting to feel its oats. The Knicks would enjoy nothing more than knocking off the world champions, and you can bet that Boston will be cheering for them.

Those who watch the pros over ABC each Sunday afternoon will have a chance to watch two games tomorrow. ABC announced Thursday that it will "split" its telecasting time, switching from the 76ers-Knicks' game to the Pistons-Celtics' match and back as the occasion arises.

This will give fans a chance to watch pivotal games in the Eastern Division playoffs, from which will probably spring the eventual champion.

The Pistons and Celtics are tied at 2-2 after Boston's 135- 110 win Thursday. Detroit, which won 10 of its last 13 games to beat out Cincinnati for the fourth playoff spot in the East, has given Boston a stronger run than the aging Celtics expected.

The two playoff series will probably be decided by the play of the two men who have dominated the game in recent years, Chamberlain and Bill Russell.

Counting On Wilt

With his team crippled by injuries, 76ers coach Alex Hannum said Friday that he is counting on Chamberlain to carry his club through against the Knicks. For Boston, player-coach Russell must play well for the Celtics to win.

Both teams depend on their big men to lead them to success. In both cases, the chores have been handed to capable men. So it will come as no surprise if the Celtics and 76ers end up in the Eastern Division's final round.

But the Knickerbockers will have something to say before it's over, and the Pistons likewise. The more experienced 76ers and Celtics are hoping the youngsters remember an old saying which goes, "Children should be seen and not heard."





Lawrence Daily Journal World - April 29, 1968

There never has been a keener rivalry in athletics than the one between basketball's Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell.

But while they go at it tooth and nail on the court, Wilt of Philly and Bill of Boston have great respect for each other.

After the Celtics edged the 76ers in the Eastern playoffs — mainly because the 76ers turned stone cold from the floor m the second half — Chamberlain led his mates to the Boston dressing room to congratulate the Celts.

But Russell, sportsman that he is, was quick to turn it around and laud Wilt, who played the final game with a bad leg injury. "Any lesser man wouldn't even be on the court, yet here was Wilt out there giving it all be had," Bill said.

At one point, Celt guard Larry Siegfried tried to stop Wilt from making a dunk by wrapping both arms around him The fabulous 7-1 strongman merely unleashed his fantastic power and flipped the 6-4, 215 pound Siegfried clear off the end of the court. Russell ha often said he never hangs or to a jump ball too long with Chamberlain: "I'm always afraid he'll pick both of us up and stuff us through the hoop, Russell chortles. Everyone in the NBA contends Chamberlain is the strongest man they've ever encountered.

[ronnymac2]

Vote: Adrian Dantley

Nominate: Deron Williams

[lorak]

vote: Dantley
nominate: Deron

[bastillon]

vote: Kemp
nominate: Laimbeer

no way 68 Sixers were the best not to win. 1972 Milwaukee was that team. I'd put couple more teams ahead of Sixers as well (some Showtime teams, some of Bird's).

[lukekarts]

Vote: Billups
Nominate: Sikma

[ronnymac2]

OK, to those nominating Laimbeer:

How is he better than Jack Sikma, who was basically Laimbeer with the capabilities for greater volume (but did not misuse that ability)?

Would you seriously take him over Deron Williams? Seriously?

[lukekarts]

OK, to those nominating Laimbeer:

How is he better than Jack Sikma, who was basically Laimbeer with the capabilities for greater volume (but did not misuse that ability)?

Would you seriously take him over Deron Williams? Seriously?

I put Laimbeer as he was the next C on my list... however I seem to have accidentlally missed/deleted Sikma off my list.

I've changed to Sikma, and yes I would take him over Deron. Better career (integral part oi a winner) playing at a more impactful position.

[lukekarts]

Love to see more analysis of THardaway v. LWilkens, GWilliams v. DJohnson, Dumars v. Monroe, Mullins v. Richmond, Hagan v. Dandridge, Marion v. Carmelo, Silas v. DeBusschere, TCummings v. EBrand, MDaniels v. N.Johnston.

I'm not going to attempt too many comparisons here, but I will offer some insight into Tim Hardaway and Dave DeBusschere; others are free to chime in with the comparisons. As per usual, I won't base my cases on advanced stats, as I'm English and I don't measure sport by stats.

Tim Hardaway

Case for:

5 x All Star
1 x NBA 1st, 3 x NBA 2nd, 1 x NBA 3rd

6-7 years playing close to 20/10 per season (peaking 23.4ppg, 10.6 apg in separate seasons). Ok defender, excellent dribbler with arguably the best crossover, good high volume scorer, vocal leader, had a huge positive impact on Miami when he arrived (42-40 on season he was traded, where he played 18 games, 61 wins in 97. Unlucky to be playing at the same time as 3-peat Bulls as he and Zo formed a great partnership - good enough to beat the Ewing/Oakley/Houston Knicks. Timmy had some big playoff games including ECSF vs Knicks - 38pts on 60%.

Case against:

Never hugely efficient (43.1% / 35.5% FG% for his career, notably less in Miami, mediocre advanced stats (TS%/eFG%), peaking 20.8 PER. Never had much help behind in GSW, had a GOAT defender in Zo behind him in Miami - easy to correlate Zo to wins rather than Timmy (though he did win 55 games alongside peak Mullin).

My personal opinion is maybe slightly biased (Heat fan) but also correlates with how much I've watched him. Inefficiency never stopped him being effective, but when he played bad, generally so did the Heat team. His overall impact is comparable to Deron Williams, and I'd argue greater than any other point guard remaining - including Billups. His career isn't as decorated as Billups but is more so than Deron's. I'd take him comfortably over Wilkens because I feel his peak impact was better and although Wilkens had a longer career, he didn't have any more success.

[penbeast0]

His impact for good or bad may have been equal or greater than Billups although when Billups got a hot hand from three, that Piston offense was pretty unstoppable, but Billups also was a very good defensive guard in his prime, superefficient, and had very low turnover rates so he had a lot more positive impact days and a lot less negative impact ones. Look at A/T numbers and other than Maurice Cheeks, you will find very few guys with similar combinations of efficiency, defense, and ability to run a mistake free offense and Billups was a much better scorer than Mo . . . though Mo should be on my short list too.

[lukekarts]

Dave DeBusschere

Case for:

8 x All Star
1 x All NBA 2nd
6 x All Defensive 1st
Hall of Fame

At the time, regarded as one of the best (non-C) defenders in the league. Hugely versatile defender, could guard SG's through to C despite being relatively short (6'6). Played mainly at PF for a very good Knicks team. Key part of 2 title winning efforts. Great rebounder. Solid scorer (peak 18.2ppg, peak 13.5 rpg). 11 14+/10+ seasons. Defended Wilt adequately in Finals when Reed was injured.

Case against:

Not a great scorer or hugely efficient (43-46%) played with two other Hall of Famers for his successful Knicks years, relatively short, took a while to find his best position.


Personally, I don't think much separates DeBusschere and Jones, as individual defenders they were both exceptionally highly regarded at the time they played and DeBusschere has perhaps been the forgotten man - his success speaks for itself.

[bastillon]

I'll be out for a few days. my list:
vote - Kemp, then Nance
nominate - Laimbeer, Sheed, DeBusschere

[Dr Positivity]

I like Laimbeer as a top 100 candidate but I agree it's hard to argue Sikma wasn't a slightly higher income version of him w/ Pau level(??) passing and more offensive skills. Both guys pretty unique among bigs who can both shoot and defend/rebound like a regular C. I still think Sikma vs Parish should've been a lot more close than their rankings on this list ended up showing. Maybe Parish got overrated if people are concerned about whether these guys can be the anchor of an elite team

Debusschere vs Sikma/Laimbeer is interesting because we might be underrating the former's defensive impact (I'd lean towards him having the most), but I think he's the worst offensively, not only is his %s really rough even for his era especially compared to Knicks teammates (he's hardly above 0 in OWS those years)- But I'd be more inclined to jump on spacing for a C as more unique/rare/valuable than at PF

[JordansBulls]

VOTE: Shawn Kemp
Nominate: Mitch Richmond

[therealbig3]

Vote: Kemp
Nominate: Dandridge

ElGee, I would be interested in your Marion vs Dandridge breakdown, because I remember you saying that suggesting Marion over Dandridge makes you cry a little. Statistically, they seem to match up quite well.

[therealbig3]

And for those guys nominating Deron, what about Tim Hardaway? This guy was a legitimate offensive anchor too, and he matches up favorably in terms of box score stats. He was usually leading top 10 offenses or better during his prime (91-99 imo, with a very good rookie season), including a top 3 offense one year. And you can see a clear improvement when he joins the Warriors as a rookie, you can see a clear improvement when he becomes a star player between his rookie year and his sophomore, and you can see a clear improvement when he has his first full season with Miami in 97. His longevity is better than Deron's too.

The reason Deron is so far off from Paul is that he lacks the peak, which combined with his longevity, means he's a top 90 player, while Paul was top 50 (close to top 40). Without that peak, I don't see why Deron should go ahead of Tim Hardaway, who's also missing that uber-awesome peak.

[Dr Positivity]

I consider Deron to be a step up at both scoring and playmaking than Tim, it's easier for him with his size

As for Paul vs Deron. I won't go there but I still have Paul's advantages as coming down to TOVs, Reb and STLs - which is enough to make him better, but those are somewhat secondary factors... at their main PG functions I consider it relatively close... it's not a Lebron vs Clyde Drexler type gap...