RealGM Top 100 List #85

Post #1 » by **penbeast0** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:13 am

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days -- Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:

Gus Williams

1x 1st team All-NBA
1x 2nd team All-NBA
NBA Champion 1979
2x All-Star

Bill Laimbeer

2x NBA Champion
4x All-Star

Mel Daniels

2x ABA MVP
4x 1st Team All-ABA
1x 2nd Team All-ABA
3x ABA Champion
ABA Rookie of the Year 1969
7x ABA All-Star

Deron Williams

2x 2nd team All-NBA
2x All-Star

Elton Brand

Rookie of the Year 00
2x All-Star

Brad Daugherty

1x NBA 3rd Team
5x All-Star

Larry Nance

1x NBA All-Def 1st team
2x NBA All-Def 2nd team
3x All-Star

Bill Sharman

Hall of Fame 1976
4x All-NBA 1st team
3x All-NBA 2nd team
4x NBA Champion
8x All-Star

Jerry Lucas

3x All-NBA 1st team
2x All-NBA 2nd team
1 NBA Championship 1973
Rookie of the Year 1964
7x All-Star

Post #2 » by **penbeast0** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:18 am

VOTE:

Lots of Bigs: Jerry Lucas and Brad Daugherty were high efficiency/weak defense bigs. Daugherty was a terrific post passer as well while Lucas had stretch the floor range, was one of the best rebounding forwards ever, and had great court intelligence. When their contemporaries were voting for HOF, Lucas went in over Willis Reed who didn't make the cut.

Elton Brand and Larry Nance were high efficiency/good defense bigs. Brand had some injury concerns and has played most of his career for bad teams; Nance is the greatest non-center shotblocker of all time and the NBA's 1st dunk champion (over Dr. J among others) but didn't get many accolades in his day for whatever reason.

Mel Daniels and Bill Laimbeer were winners and . . . well . . . thugs. Two of the most physical guys to ever play. Daniels was a 2 time MVP and 3 time champion in the ABA whose career was over by age 30. Laimbeer a 2 time champion whose dirty tricks and whining to the refs made him the most hated man in the NBA. Both terrific rebounders, Daniels scored up to 20/g usually from within 10 feet; Laimbeer scored a lot less but spread the floor with his range.

At guard, Bill Sharman was the prototype spot up shooter for the early Celtics and extremely efficient for his day. Gus Williams was the leading scorer on a Seattle team that went to two finals, winning one title. Deron Williams is a modern prototype PG, good shooting/passing/defense.

By the numbers AND by accolades, it's clearly Lucas or Sharman. In terms of peak play, to me it's probably Daniels. For consistency, Larry Nance.

I will vote for JERRY LUCAS -- all those great offenses in Cinncinnati had either Lucas or Jack Twyman with Oscar and while Oscar was the lead, Lucas was the only other offensive star for most of them plus his defense was good enough to win a title starting at center for the defensive ensemble Knicks in 73.

Post #3 » by **penbeast0** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:23 am

Point Guards -- a lot of solid players but no one who leaps out
Tim Hardaway
Lenny Wilkens
Dennis Johnson
Tony Parker?
Norm Van Lier?

Shooting Guards -- Dumars needs to go soon
Joe Dumars
Earl Monroe
Chris Mullin
Mitch Richmond
Paul Westphal?
Walter Davis?

Shooting Forward -- Probably the deepest spot left:
Shawn Marion
Cliff Hagan
Carmelo Anthony
Bob Dandridge
Jamaal Wilkes?
Willie Wise?

Power Forward -- Not sure how much to value Paul Silas/BuckWilliams/Bill Bridges types
Terry Cummings
Elton Brand
Amare Stoudamire
Paul Silas/Dave DeBusschere/Maurice Lucas/Buck Williams -- the bangers

Centers: Getting a bit thin
Jack Sikma -- longevity
Neil Johnston -- accolades
Walt Bellamy -- statistical peak
Yao Ming -- the best modern center left

Looking at the candidates -- Joe Dumars, Shawn Marion, Jack Sikma and Cliff Hagan are leading my short list. All good defenders, all good offensive players. Like Terry Cummings, Sikma and Hagan are hurt by long periods of post-injury role player status after starting out as sure fire HOF candidates, though Cummings did have 9 top flight years. Can't see Hardaway or Mullin over Dumars at guard or Cummings, Carmelo, or Brand over Marion at forward. The only challenge for Sikma at C is 50's star Neil Johnston who is another great O, weak D kind of guy.

NOMINATE Shawn Marion

Dr Positivity · Post #4 » by **Dr Positivity** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:19 am

Vote Deron

Nominate Sikma

Sikma is overdue to say the least

JordansBulls · Post #5 » by **JordansBulls** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:12 am

Vote: Brad Daugherty
Nominate: Mitch Richmond

lukekarts · Post #6 » by **lukekarts** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:57 am

VOTE: Daugherty
Nominate: Sikma

therealbig3 · Post #7 » by **therealbig3** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:53 am

Changed my mind regarding Deron, partially because of the arguments that some people have made for him, and partially because I'm biased

Vote: Deron
Nominate: Melo

Since Hardaway isn't getting any traction.

Post #8 » by **penbeast0** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:38 am

Can anyone seriously make an argument that has Daugherty over Jerry Lucas, Larry Nance, and/or Mel Daniels? Lucas has much better numbers and accolades as well as playing at least as key a role in a better offense; Nance's numbers are very close while he gives you outstanding defense unlike Daugherty whose defense is average at best; Daniels gives you better numbers plus two MVPs and three ABA titles while providing much better defense as well. Lucas and Nance give you better durability as well. All three are clearly superior to Daugherty and at least one is superior using any metric other than possibly passing out of the post (and Nance is close there).

bastillon · Post #9 » by **bastillon** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:06 pm

Lucas was obsessed with his stats, much like Wilt and he sometimes yelled at his teammates for rebounding because he didn't just compete with his opponents, in his mind he thought he had to outrebound everyone on both teams (according to Wayne Embry). I posted a quote earlier of contemporary observer thinking Oscar dragged Lucas to those all-star games every year because he was so slow and couldn't play defense. I don't see how we can overlook his high efficiency next to Oscar considering that Oscar led the best offenses in the league year after year and actually led #1 offense more times than either Nash, Jordan or Magic. even having considered his offense it's hard to make a case for him because of defense.

your argument with him being starting center on 73 NYK is pretty poor because at that point Lucas was a different player and he wasn't even close to being an all-star. Lucas which we are analysing mainly is the guy who played over 40 mpg on the worst defensive team in the league, year after year. Lucas you're talking about only played 20 mpg which was 6th highest on those Knicks (Reed, DeBusschere, Monroe, Bradley, Frazier). I really don't see how playing 20 mpg on defensively minded title team justifies the prior decade when he often played 45 mpg on the worst defensive team in the league. Lucas is definitely the worst defender of the remaining players and it's not even close. so much so that when he went to SFW, they regressed defensively despite Thurmond playing 40 games more that year. Lucas was so bad he made Thurmond's impact invisible.

by team DWS
71 SFW - 17.3 (both Lucas and Thurmond for 80 games)
70 SFW - 24.5 (with Lucas 60 games and Thurmond 40 games)
69 SFW - 28.5 (Thurmond 70 games, no Lucas)

if we're even considering Jerry Lucas, how come Amare hasn't been voted in long ago ? Amare is vastly more potent offensive player, a playoff beast compared to Lucas and didn't play much worse defense either.

there is also Elgee's data according to which Lucas was a net NEGATIVE which seems consistent with common sense as he was a good offensive player and horrible defender and those usually don't perform well in impact stats.

Post #10 » by **penbeast0** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:38 pm

If you look at those Royals teams you find Oscar who, together with West, is completely in another stratosphere from any other guard in the league; Lucas, who is the most efficient forward in the league (Twyman was close to most efficient in his time too -- even before Oscar), and . . . well, no one else is particularly efficient except that Adrian Smith has one good year. Bockman, Tommy Van Arsdale, McCoy McLemore, Embry, Dierking . . . these are inefficient players even next to Oscar. So, you can't dismiss Lucas, he managed to be the best offensive forward in the league and the best rebounding forward in the league while no one around him was impressive. And, the fact that he managed those rebound totals playing with Oscar, the best rebounding guard of his day, is even more impressive considering the excuses made for James Worthy ("he was a good rebounder, it's just that playing with Magic . . . ") and Kevin McHale ("he was a good rebounder, it's just that playing with Bird . . . ").

His defense is what keeps him from top 50 consideration but one quote and ElGee's in/out numbers aren't enough for me to ignore him completely. His defense with those Knicks teams, where I watched him, was pretty solid -- he was a smart player and strong enough to hold position. And, he wasn't a stat hog then; although like many other great players (MJ for example) he certainly cared a lot about his stats when he was among the league leaders. Red Holtzman has great things to say about him as a team player in Terry Pluto's "Tall Tales" and, as I said, the observers who watched him thought enough of him to vote him into the Hall of Fame over direct competition with Willis Reed who got in two years later.

Jerry Lucas isn't perfect but he was a great player and deserves consideration here. The only one that might deserve more is Bill Sharman and I am not as impressed with Sharman without further analysis that shows me a great impact than I think of him having now.

bastillon · Post #11 » by **bastillon** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:33 pm

I still don't see why you rate Lucas so highly. even with his efficiency being pretty high, he wasn't a GREAT offensive player, his numbers are inflated due to mpg and stats-chasing. the impact of big man who is terrible defensively (because that's what he was, terrible, there's no other way to explain worst defense in the league with his mins totals) and good offensively isn't enough to make any sort of positive impact, not to mention top100 all-time impact.

it's not only his defense that keeps him from top50, he wasn't even close to many offensive players left NOW (Deron, Amare, Brand, Bug, even Dumars really). the only reason why Lucas is being considered good at all is his extremely high rebounding totals... which isn't that great considering his mins and stats-chasing (yelling at teammates for grabbing "his" rebounds for christ's sake) and how much can you value rebounding when its purpose is defensive impact and Lucas defense was well below expectations ?

the way I'm evaluating players strongly penalizes poor defensive bigs, pretty much you can't be all timer if your defense is below average as a big man. obviously I value Jerry Lucas very little, he's to me a rich man's Troy Murphy. that's connected with my preferences and highly subjective so I understand your stance being totally different, I'm just questioning your reasoning here because neither his defense wasn't "good enough" nor his offense wasn't elite compared to all time players.

also with all due respect, but you can't use Oscar as any sort of excuse here... Lucas rebounding was inflated in the first place by aforementioned factors, but his competition on the boards wasn't particularly impressive either. his C was grabbing about 12-13% trb...

and seriously, would you take 6'8 big with good IQ and great jumpshot, no athleticism to speak of, poor defensive instincts and no shotblocking whatsoever ahead of guys like Daugherty, Amare, Brand (primarily offensive bigs) ? I think Lucas was so far behind these guys it's unthinkable for me to even put them in the same category, much less voting for the guy. all subjective but then again, there's no evidence making me think otherwise.

ronnymac2 · Post #12 » by **ronnymac2** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:39 am

Vote: Deron Williams

Nominate: Jack Sikma

Since it's only a nomination, I'll go with Sikma. I'm principled when it comes to my vote, but the I'm less strict with the nomination. Timbug and Melo were my true candidates.

therealbig3 · Post #13 » by **therealbig3** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:52 am

ronnymac2 wrote:Vote: Deron Williams

Nominate: Jack Sikma

Since it's only a nomination, I'll go with Sikma. I'm principled when it comes to my vote, but the I'm less strict with the nomination. Timbug and Melo were my true candidates.

Well, to be fair, if you went with Melo, he would be tied for the lead right now

bastillon · Post #14 » by **bastillon** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:41 am

I forgot Yao was still available. by far the best peak of any player left. posted 20/10/2 bl in 6-year stretch from 04 to 09... with 60% TS, 23 PER, and .200 WS48. clearly a superstar. impact-wise he's one of the best players in Ilardi's APM studies with amazing 4.4 defensive plus minus. anchored many great defenses during that stretch.

other than longetivity I don't think anyone can top this stretch and I'm surprised to still see him on the board. that's a legit 2-way big with poor passing but great otherwise. at his best he owns most 80s/90s centers that are in long ago.

he's got everything - accolades, on/off stats, boxscore stats, playoff play. his longetivity isn't even that bad considering that we voted in guys like Walton or Hawkins and Daugherty is already nominated.

bastillon · Post #15 » by **bastillon** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:45 am

vote Deron
nominate Yao

ronnymac2 · Post #16 » by **ronnymac2** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:55 am

bastillon wrote:I forgot Yao was still available. by far the best peak of any player left. posted 20/10/2 bl in 6-year stretch from 04 to 09... with 60% TS, 23 PER, and .200 WS48. clearly a superstar. impact-wise he's one of the best players in Ilardi's APM studies with amazing 4.4 defensive plus minus. anchored many great defenses during that stretch.

other than longetivity I don't think anyone can top this stretch and I'm surprised to still see him on the board. that's a legit 2-way big with poor passing but great otherwise. at his best he owns most 80s/90s centers that are in long ago.

he's got everything - accolades, on/off stats, boxscore stats, playoff play. his longetivity isn't even that bad considering that we voted in guys like Walton or Hawkins and Daugherty is already nominated.

He misses too many damn playoffs though. I'd love to nominate Yao, but he misses to much time, both in the regular season and the playoffs.

ronnymac2 · Post #17 » by **ronnymac2** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:58 am

therealbig3 wrote:
ronnymac2 wrote:Vote: Deron Williams

Nominate: Jack Sikma

Since it's only a nomination, I'll go with Sikma. I'm principled when it comes to my vote, but the I'm less strict with the nomination. Timbug and Melo were my true candidates.

Well, to be fair, if you went with Melo, he would be tied for the lead right now

lol True, but Sikma's been waiting forever, and honestly, at this point in the project, with the crazy amount of players get one nomination each, I think it'd be better to just get people in. This way there are less ties and it's easier for Pen.

I won't do that for votes- I won't even change my vote if I'm alone- but I'm lax with nominations.

bastillon · Post #18 » by **bastillon** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:24 am

all correct Ronny, that's why I penalize Yao too. but he still played a couple postseason runs and we voted in Walton at 49 who basically played 1 RS + PS in his career. then we voted Hawk who had 1 all-NBA season and then wasn't particularly relevant. when Yao did play though, he was great. 20/10/2bl/60% TS ? and elite defense ? that's just way better than a guy like Sikma to me. prime Yao was IMO equal to Zo.

lorak · Post #19 » by **lorak** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:57 am

prime Yao was better than Gilmore.

Dr Positivity · Post #20 » by **Dr Positivity** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:08 pm

Years that Yao was available for the playoffs

03-05 - Good player but not in his prime yet. 18/9 in early 30s minutes

06-07 - His best years but plays 57 and 48 Gs which is on the low side considering making the playoffs and getting a high seed is pretty important, as the Rockets found out both years

I don't count 09. Although like 78 Walton taking a team to the 2nd round is more than others can do, if I know my player won't be there through the playoff run I wouldn't take them over the 20th, 30th best players in the league from a drafting perspective

I definitely wouldn't take that over Sikma's 79-88. Considering Yao was great but not a tier 1 peak or anything