RealGM Top 100 List #87

[penbeast0]

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days -- Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:

Carmelo Anthony

1x All-NBA 2nd
3x All-NBA 3rd
4x All-Star


Jack Sikma

NBA Champion 1979
1x All-Defense 2nd
7x All-Star


Gus Williams

1x 1st team All-NBA
1x 2nd team All-NBA
NBA Champion 1979
2x All-Star

Bill Laimbeer

2x NBA Champion
4x All-Star


Mel Daniels

2x ABA MVP
4x 1st Team All-ABA
1x 2nd Team All-ABA
3x ABA Champion
ABA Rookie of the Year 1969
7x ABA All-Star


Brad Daugherty

1x NBA 3rd Team
5x All-Star


Larry Nance

1x NBA All-Def 1st team
2x NBA All-Def 2nd team
3x All-Star


Bill Sharman

Hall of Fame 1976
4x All-NBA 1st team
3x All-NBA 2nd team
4x NBA Champion
8x All-Star


Jerry Lucas

3x All-NBA 1st team
2x All-NBA 2nd team
1 NBA Championship 1973
Rookie of the Year 1964
7x All-Star

[penbeast0]

VOTE:

Lots of Bigs: Jerry Lucas and Brad Daugherty were high efficiency/weak defense bigs. Daugherty was a terrific post passer as well while Lucas had stretch the floor range, was one of the best rebounding forwards ever, and had great court intelligence. When their contemporaries were voting for HOF, Lucas went in over Willis Reed who didn't make the cut.

Larry Nance was high efficiency and good defense. Nance is the greatest non-center shotblocker of all time and the NBA's 1st dunk champion (over Dr. J among others) but didn't get many accolades in his day for whatever reason -- more than Elton Brand though.

Mel Daniels and Bill Laimbeer were winners and . . . well . . . thugs. Two of the most physical guys to ever play. Daniels was a 2 time MVP and 3 time champion in the ABA whose career was over by age 30. Laimbeer a 2 time champion whose dirty tricks and whining to the refs made him the most hated man in the NBA. Both terrific rebounders, Daniels scored up to 20/g usually from within 10 feet; Laimbeer scored a lot less but spread the floor with his range. Jack Sikma could also fit this spot though he wasn't as physical.

For pure scoring, you have Carmelo Anthony, a prototype scoring 3. At guard, Bill Sharman was the main spot up shooter for the early Celtics and extremely efficient for his day. Gus Williams was the leading scorer on a Seattle team that went to two finals, winning one title.

By the numbers it's clearly Lucas. In terms of peak play, to me it's probably Daniels since the ABA he played in was probably as good or better than Sharman's 50s NBA plus he had TWO MVPs.

I will vote for MEL DANIELS -- we just voted in a guy with no All-League awards and only 2 All-Star appearances . . . don't you think it's time we voted in a guy with 2 MVPs?

[penbeast0]

Point Guards
Tim Hardaway
Lenny Wilkens
Dennis Johnson
Tony Parker?
Norm Van Lier?

Shooting Guards -- Dumars needs to go soon
Joe Dumars
Earl Monroe
Chris Mullin
Mitch Richmond
Paul Westphal?
Walter Davis?

Shooting Forward
Shawn Marion
Cliff Hagan
Bob Dandridge
Jamaal Wilkes?
Willie Wise?

Power Forward -- Not sure how much to value Paul Silas/BuckWilliams/Bill Bridges types
Terry Cummings
Elton Brand
Amare Stoudamire
Paul Silas/Dave DeBusschere/Maurice Lucas/Buck Williams -- the bangers

Centers:
Neil Johnston -- accolades
Walt Bellamy -- statistical peak
Yao Ming -- the best modern center left

Looking at the candidates -- Joe Dumars and Shawn Marion are leading my short list. Can't see Hardaway or Mullin over Dumars at guard or and Cummings is the best competition for Marion at forward. Yao didn't have any playoff impact with his injuries so 50's star Neil Johnston who is another great O, weak D kind of guy is the best center left and another 50s star, Cliff Hagan, was one of the few guys to consistently up his game in the playoffs.

NOMINATE Joe Dumars

[therealbig3]

Vote: Sharman
Nominate: Hardaway

I definitely think Dumars deserves to go soon, but I don't really see why he should go ahead of Hardaway.

[penbeast0]

Dumars v. Hardaway

Dumars has it all over Hardaway in two very very important areas, efficiency and defense, plus he has a finals MVP in his credentials . . . Timmy was a natural PG with a lot of assists but that volume assists aren't as important as shooting efficiency and defense. Dumars who was a good playmaker for a SG but not a natural PG like Hardaway.

[Dr Positivity]

Vote Sikma

Nominate Lou Hudson

Was the best shooter in the league, great character guy and had a 5 year 25-27ppg stretch. I'm not seeing much argument for Sharman over him tbh, Hudson scored more on better percentages, and in general is just a bigger, more athletic guy offensively and I'm guessing a better defender for that reason too. Lou's first year was 67 Sharman's last was 61, so it's not like they were miles apart in era.

[therealbig3]

Dumars v. Hardaway

Dumars has it all over Hardaway in two very very important areas, efficiency and defense, plus he has a finals MVP in his credentials . . . Timmy was a natural PG with a lot of assists but that volume assists aren't as important as shooting efficiency and defense. Dumars who was a good playmaker for a SG but not a natural PG like Hardaway.

Hmm, well it's not like Dumars was THAT much more efficient than Hardaway, and although Dumars was an excellent defender, remember that he's still a guard, who also played on one of the most dominant defensive teams of all time, so his overall defensive impact is most likely not that massive.

During his prime, these were Dumars's numbers, per 36 (519 RS games):

Regular season: 18.9 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 4.7 apg, 2.3 TOpg, .552 TS%

Playoffs: 17.4 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 4.4 apg, 1.8 TOpg, .542 TS%


Compare that to Hardaway, per 36 (533 RS games):

Regular season: 19.3 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 8.7 apg, 2.9 TOpg, .538 TS%

Playoffs: 18.5 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 6.7 apg, 2.8 TOpg, .529 TS%

It looks like Hardaway scored more, was more of a facilitator, while maintaining a low amount of TOs (higher than Dumars, but he was also asked to do a lot more), and the efficiency difference is minimal at best. You're talking a little more than a 1% difference, which is practically nothing.

League average TS% was identical during both of their primes.

Remember also that Dumars didn't face the same defensive attention that Hardaway faced.

The Finals MVP...that's nice, but it just means that Dumars played very well in one series, which happened to be the Finals.

[JordansBulls]

Vote: Daugherty
Nominate: Richmond

[penbeast0]

Vote Sikma

Nominate Lou Hudson

Was the best shooter in the league, great character guy and had a 5 year 25-27ppg stretch. I'm not seeing much argument for Sharman over him tbh, Hudson scored more on better percentages, and in general is just a bigger, more athletic guy offensively and I'm guessing a better defender for that reason too. Lou's first year was 67 Sharman's last was 61, so it's not like they were miles apart in era.

They were miles apart in era. The late 60s/early 70s were more different from the 50s than today's game is from the Hudsons. You can see it in the leaguewide efficiency stats . . . in Sharman's first year fulltime year of 1953, the league shot .370, Sharman shot .431. As late as 1959 (Sharman's last year of over 200 minutes), the league was still shooting under .400 (and Sharman still more than .400) then Wilt comes in in 1960 and pushes the league efg to .410 (Sharman .450, without Wilt the league is still under .400!) and .415 in 1961.

By the time Hudson comes in in 1967, league shooting average is up to .441, Hudson shoots .467. In Hudson's last year of over 2000 minutes, the league shoots .469, Hudson shoots .497. The difference between league efg and that of Sharman is slightly better than Hudson although Hudson scores a bit more. Both played with ball dominant superstar PGs (Cousy and Maravich) who they were appreciably more efficient than. Both were very solid off ball scorers, Hudson was a bit better with the ball. Sharman has a clearly better defensive rep and his legacy of being an early part of the Celics dynasty while Hudson mainly played for weak but high scoring Atlanta teams.

Not a huge difference but I favor Sharman of the two.

[Laimbeer]

Vote Daniels
Nominate DeBusschere

[lorak]

vote: Sharman
nominate: DeBusschere

[Doctor MJ]

Vote: Bill Sharman

I think it's good to have the comparison with Sweet Lou to stimulate some conversation here. I have to admit that my opinion of Sharman relies a lot on extrapolation, which means I'm willing to have it changed in the future, but consider:

When Hudson gets referred to as the best shooter in the league, it's necessary to consider that Sharman was light years better from the free throw line. Sharman's FT shooting would be absolutely elite even today, meanwhile Hudson shot around 80%, which means that as a pure shooter he was arguably worse than Yao Ming.

Of course this doesn't mean that Sharman was necessarily better at shooting in the context of a live game, but right there it becomes clear that these are not the same type of player, and so comparison will not be straight forward.

Sharman's TS% obviously was not mind-blowing by later standards, so one can argue that that more than nullifies Sharman's edge in raw shooting ability, but I feel the need to factor in era, and more specifically factor in team context.

Era obviously means you boost Sharman's efficiency to adjust, but then there's also what Sharman did in Boston. This was a team where early on Cousy played "point guard", which to him meant "everyone else get out of the way and I'll pass it to you sometimes", and then later on played a defense-focused game. In both cases it wasn't exactly ideal for showcasing Sharman's capacity as a volume scorer, but he did what he was asked to do, and provide a clear benefit to his team as a "more efficient than the rest of the team" scoring 20 PPG in a league where you might lead the league in scoring at 25 PPG. Not too shabby.

One might accuse me of playing a "what if" game with Sharman, "What if he'd been the offensive focus of the Celtics?", but I'd say what I'm actually doing is recognizing what a clear positive core member of the greatest dynasty in history he was.

I'll also admit that the fact that it's obvious that Sharman had a sky high BBIQ (look at his coaching) gives me more confidence on this front. I'd say this was a very smart player, with a level head, and all-world shooting ability, and I'm impressed.

Nominate: Joe Dumars

Was kind of waiting for someone else to bring him up again as I didn't want to champion him for threads on end. Consider my mind blown that if things end up as they appear now, Joe Dumars will be the #5 Bad Boy on our list. Think about that folks. This was the #2 scorer, the key defender of Jordan in the Jordan Rules, would at times beat out Isiah for accolades without ever being the high maintenance guy that Isiah, Rodman, etc were. In most lists he'd be the #2 Bad Boy, it's pretty strange that he's dropped so low here imho.

[Dr Positivity]

Well you could make the case that because

- Dantley wasn't on the championship teams
- Rodman was playing limited minutes, wasn't an absurd rebounder yet, playing SF made him much more of an offensive negative factor

That Dumars could still be considered more valuable than them to those teams despite a lower ranking and 3rd or 2nd. As for Laimbeer, I'd still be surprised if he got voted in before Dumars but I could see the case made that he was as important to those teams due to the value of a high end C and by being the biggest thing that made the Bad Boys the Bad Boys, in the same way that DJ was considered more of a driving force than Sikma but the latter was probably more valuable (IMO)

[Doctor MJ]

Well you could make the case that because

- Dantley wasn't on the championship teams
- Rodman was playing limited minutes, wasn't an absurd rebounder yet, playing SF made him much more of an offensive negative factor

That Dumars could still be considered more valuable than them to those teams despite a lower ranking and 3rd or 2nd. As for Laimbeer, I'd still be surprised if he got voted in before Dumars but I could see the case made that he was as important to those teams due to the value of a high end C and by being the biggest thing that made the Bad Boys the Bad Boys, in the same way that DJ was considered more of a driving force than Sikma but the latter was probably more valuable (IMO)

Good clarification post.

Yes, there are reasons why Dantley and Rodman could rise above Dumars based on their non-Detroit careers.

At the same time at least in Dantley's case: When Dumars was winning the Finals MVP while Dantley played on his new team, this turn of events was based directly on the Pistons deciding "Which players make us best?" None of this then was a fluke.

And yes, Laimbeer is the clear WTF for me as well. I do understand someone saying "Well, non-Detroit stuff moves Dumars down to the #4 Bad Boy, and then its simply that Laimbeer is getting overrated.", but I think people at the very least need to do a sanity check and make sure they aren't sleeping on Dumars.

[ronnymac2]

Vote: Jack Sikma

Nominate: Tim Hardaway

It came down to Sikma vs. Williams. Primes are close enough; Sikma played longer. Very close considering I do like Williams's offense.

Hardaway, Richmond, Dumars, and Yao are on my mind right now. Richmond and Dumars are similar (edge to Mitch offensively, but Dumars was a better defender, though Mitch was no slouch). I find Tim's Isiah-like ability to shoot me both in and out of games compelling. If Richmond or Dumars played the Nash to Tim's Isiah, I'd choose Richmond or Dumars. However, neither Richmond nor Dumars are the Constant that Nash is, even relative to Hardaway, so I'll go with the bigger high-risk, high-reward gamble in TimBug.

Bast made a good case for Yao before. I don't find Yao's two healthy star-level postseasons to be truly amazing, but they are very good.

Amar'e is closing in as well.

[penbeast0]

VOTE

Mel Daniels – penbeast0, Laimbeer

Bill Sharman – therealbig3, DavidStern, Doctor MJ

Jack Sikma – Dr Mufasa, ronnymac2

Brad Daugherty -- JordansBulls


NOMINATE

Joe Dumars – penbeast0, Doctor MJ

Tim Hardaway – therealbig3, ronnymac2

Lou Hudson – Dr Mufasa

Mitch Richmond – JordansBulls

Dave DeBusschere – Laimbeer, DavidStern

[Dr Positivity]

I'll change my nomination to Hardaway

[penbeast0]

Shame, those who saw Mel Daniels play in the early ABA days of 80 fights in 80 games would have appreciated him being elected on Boxing Day.