Patrick Ewing or Walt Frazier or Willis Reed - GOAT NYK

[JordansBulls]

Who was the greatest player in Knicks history?

[therealbig3]

It's almost a tossup between Ewing and Frazier for me, and I'd lean Ewing.

Reed doesn't really have a case, imo.

[lukekarts]

It's bizarre because 40 years ago, you look back at all the articles, newspaper reports etc. and it's clear Reed was seen as the star of the Knicks. That's probably why he won 2 x FMVP.

The last couple of years on this forum everyone has thought Frazier was better - though I've not seen whether his 'fake' assists total from the Finals has changed people's opinion.

@ therealbig3 - Certainly in terms of accolades and leadership Reed has a case? - 7 x All Star, 1 x League MVP, 2 x Finals MVP, 1 x ALl NBA 1st, 4 x NBA 2nd, 1 x All Defensive 1st, 2 x Championships. He lead the lead in Defensive Win Shares and Win Shares too, so it's not as though the accolades were hollow.

[therealbig3]

Well I feel that Reed was, not improperly, but maybe unfairly, given the majority of the credit for the Knicks success, as I feel Walt Frazier was the driving force of that team, and he was their best player.

I'm not saying Reed was a far more inferior player than Ewing or Frazier, I think it's a small difference, but it's a clear one, imo. I think Ewing was better on both sides of the ball, and like I said, I think Frazier was the Knicks' "true" MVP.

[ThaRegul8r]

Frazier.

It's bizarre because 40 years ago, you look back at all the articles, newspaper reports etc. and it's clear Reed was seen as the star of the Knicks.

Evidently you haven't looked at "all" accounts by contemporaries. You're only repeating what you're aware of, and thinking that represents how things were. About Reed winning 1969-70 MVP:

Some said that Reed was simply the best player on the best team, but others argued that wasn’t really the case. The most valuable Knick, they said, was guard Walt Frazier.

Much as I respect Willis, I didn’t think he was even the most valuable player on the Knicks; Walt Frazier was.

So, with all due respect, the only thing that's "clear" is a lack of knowledge of how Frazier was seen.

That's probably why he won 2 x FMVP.

He didn't deserve to be "2 x FMVP." Willis Reed himself said he would have voted for Frazier, but this is something one wouldn't know if one only confined one's search to looking to corroborate what one has "heard" instead of desiring to find out what was.

The last couple of years on this forum everyone has thought Frazier was better -

The above didn't come from this forum, but guys who were actually in the league at the time. As I've said over and over again, just because you don't know it, doesn't mean it wasn't so. If you were actually aware of what was going on, you'd know that his peers recognized him as one of the most clutch performers in the league, and one of the guys they didn't want to see with the ball with the game on the line. Interestingly enough, that's praised now, but if it happened before you were born, then it doesn't count.

@ therealbig3 - Certainly in terms of accolades and leadership Reed has a case? - 7 x All Star, 1 x League MVP, 2 x Finals MVP, 1 x ALl NBA 1st, 4 x NBA 2nd, 1 x All Defensive 1st, 2 x Championships.

He didn't deserve the league MVP—as contemporaries have said, he didn't deserve to be 2x Finals MVP—as Reed himself said his vote would have gone to Frazier, so no, he doesn't. He got overhyped for the most overrated "performance" in Finals history, while, as his own coach said, "what Walt Frazier did paid the rent."

[lukekarts]

Again, that goes back to perception at the time - the media voting for the Finals MVP felt Reed's impact in 1973 deserved it - I guess due to the intangibles he brings. I also assume that's what Red Holzman was referring to. Of course, there's not a unanimous opinion on the issue.

If you look objectively & in hindsight, Reed and Frazier should've split Finals MVP's across the 70 & 73; by 73 Reed's impact was more comparable to Wes Unseld than his earlier self; no bad thing of course but in the 1970 Finals he was dominating Wilt in scoring and pulling down a respectable 15rpg.

In any case, I think both players are more deserving of the Knicks best player than Ewing, who for all his talents, was never quite good enough to get the job done.

[bastillon]

to me it's Ewing by far. better on defense than both 70s Knicks and only Frazier was better offensively though that has a lot to do with his team bc he wouldn't be that efficient if he played with those scrubs from the 90s (who were great defensively, but couldn't play respectable offense). I always thought of Frazier as rather all-star/all-NBA 3rd type player rather than MVP/all-NBA 2nd caliber guy.

[lorak]

Some said that Reed was simply the best player on the best team, but others argued that wasn’t really the case. The most valuable Knick, they said, was guard Walt Frazier.

[quote][size=120]Much as I respect Willis, I didn’t think he was even the most valuable player on the Knicks; Walt Frazier was.[/si/quote]


Sources? Who said that?

[CousinOfDeath]

It's gotta be Clyde. Reed won the Finals MVP in '70 primarily because of his heroic comeback, not because he was actually the Knicks' MVP. Clyde was the leader of that team and put up one of the best Game 7 performances ever.

Actually Ewing vs. Clyde is really close I can't really decide.

[EGarrett]

[Collie]

Ewing. Though his lack of a ring hurt him, he had good amount of success for longer than Clyde or Reed, despite not having a very stellar cast and had equal or better peaks to both of them. He holds just about every major Knicks record as well.

14 years of excellence vs Clyde's 9 years and Reed's 7.

[lukekarts]

It's gotta be Clyde. Reed won the Finals MVP in '70 primarily because of his heroic comeback, not because he was actually the Knicks' MVP. Clyde was the leader of that team and put up one of the best Game 7 performances ever.

Actually Ewing vs. Clyde is really close I can't really decide.

Ok, firstly, Walt's Game 7 wasn't that great:

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1130334 - is pretty self explanatory.

Secondly, Knick's averages for the series - including Walt's inflated assists:

Willis Reed - 23 / 10.5
Dave DeBusschere - 19 / 12.6
Dick Barnett - 18.6 / 4.3
Walt Frazier - 17.6 / 10.4

Considering Reed was the best defender on his team - and by some metrics, the most impactful defender in the league that year, I don't think Frazier deserved FMVP at all. Especially when you consider the game that Reed missed entirely - game 6 - Wilt Chamberlain went for 45 points and the Lakers won by over 20. He averaged 19.3ppg when up against Reed. Frazier also mentioned to ESPN a few years ago ref game 7: "If Willis didn't come out, I would not have had that game"

I have no problem with people saying Frazier was the best Knick or the best player on that team in 1973 but he absolutely does not have a case in 1970.

[Laimbeer]

to me it's Ewing by far. better on defense than both 70s Knicks and only Frazier was better offensively though that has a lot to do with his team bc he wouldn't be that efficient if he played with those scrubs from the 90s (who were great defensively, but couldn't play respectable offense). I always thought of Frazier as rather all-star/all-NBA 3rd type player rather than MVP/all-NBA 2nd caliber guy.

You're not saying third team all-NBA are you? What four guards were better than him in his day? When have we ever had four guards in a given year better than prime Frazier?

[JordansBulls]

The guy played like 4 years with them.

[bastillon]

to me it's Ewing by far. better on defense than both 70s Knicks and only Frazier was better offensively though that has a lot to do with his team bc he wouldn't be that efficient if he played with those scrubs from the 90s (who were great defensively, but couldn't play respectable offense). I always thought of Frazier as rather all-star/all-NBA 3rd type player rather than MVP/all-NBA 2nd caliber guy.

You're not saying third team all-NBA are you? What four guards were better than him in his day? When have we ever had four guards in a given year better than prime Frazier?

I used the word "type" for a reason. poorous guard play shouldn't affect where Frazier ranked. he was never a superstar, that's the point. although I have to admit Frazier is one guy I can't get my mind around. he's difficult to evaluate. one time he's outplaying Jerry West; next time he can't lead his team anywhere after DeBusschere's retirement.

[Laimbeer]

to me it's Ewing by far. better on defense than both 70s Knicks and only Frazier was better offensively though that has a lot to do with his team bc he wouldn't be that efficient if he played with those scrubs from the 90s (who were great defensively, but couldn't play respectable offense). I always thought of Frazier as rather all-star/all-NBA 3rd type player rather than MVP/all-NBA 2nd caliber guy.

You're not saying third team all-NBA are you? What four guards were better than him in his day? When have we ever had four guards in a given year better than prime Frazier?

I used the word "type" for a reason. poorous guard play shouldn't affect where Frazier ranked. he was never a superstar, that's the point. although I have to admit Frazier is one guy I can't get my mind around. he's difficult to evaluate. one time he's outplaying Jerry West; next time he can't lead his team anywhere after DeBusschere's retirement.

In all fairness, Reed left about that time and left them with Phil Jackson and John Gianelli as their bigs.

[JordansBulls]

It's gotta be Clyde. Reed won the Finals MVP in '70 primarily because of his heroic comeback, not because he was actually the Knicks' MVP. Clyde was the leader of that team and put up one of the best Game 7 performances ever.

Actually Ewing vs. Clyde is really close I can't really decide.

Ok, firstly, Walt's Game 7 wasn't that great:

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1130334 - is pretty self explanatory.

Secondly, Knick's averages for the series - including Walt's inflated assists:

Willis Reed - 23 / 10.5
Dave DeBusschere - 19 / 12.6
Dick Barnett - 18.6 / 4.3
Walt Frazier - 17.6 / 10.4

Considering Reed was the best defender on his team - and by some metrics, the most impactful defender in the league that year, I don't think Frazier deserved FMVP at all. Especially when you consider the game that Reed missed entirely - game 6 - Wilt Chamberlain went for 45 points and the Lakers won by over 20. He averaged 19.3ppg when up against Reed. Frazier also mentioned to ESPN a few years ago ref game 7: "If Willis didn't come out, I would not have had that game"

I have no problem with people saying Frazier was the best Knick or the best player on that team in 1973 but he absolutely does not have a case in 1970.

Not to mention Reed won league and finals mvp that year.

[ThaRegul8r]

It's gotta be Clyde. Reed won the Finals MVP in '70 primarily because of his heroic comeback, not because he was actually the Knicks' MVP. Clyde was the leader of that team and put up one of the best Game 7 performances ever.

Actually Ewing vs. Clyde is really close I can't really decide.

Ok, firstly, Walt's Game 7 wasn't that great:

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1130334 - is pretty self explanatory.

Secondly, Knick's averages for the series - including Walt's inflated assists:

Willis Reed - 23 / 10.5
Dave DeBusschere - 19 / 12.6
Dick Barnett - 18.6 / 4.3
Walt Frazier - 17.6 / 10.4

Considering Reed was the best defender on his team - and by some metrics, the most impactful defender in the league that year, I don't think Frazier deserved FMVP at all. Especially when you consider the game that Reed missed entirely - game 6 - Wilt Chamberlain went for 45 points and the Lakers won by over 20. He averaged 19.3ppg when up against Reed. Frazier also mentioned to ESPN a few years ago ref game 7: "If Willis didn't come out, I would not have had that game"

I have no problem with people saying Frazier was the best Knick or the best player on that team in 1973 but he absolutely does not have a case in 1970.

Not to mention Reed won league and finals mvp that year.

Who cares, when he didn't deserve either? West and Frazier should have won them. Serious question: do you ever do any analysis of your own and ever come to a different (informed) opinion from what actually happened, or are you one of those people who don't question the status quo? (Unless of course, it involves Jordan, in which case you'll have no problem disagreeing with any result that doesn't favor him.)

[JordansBulls]

[

Who cares, when he didn't deserve either? West and Frazier should have won them. Serious question: do you ever do any analysis of your own and ever come to a different (informed) opinion from what actually happened, or are you one of those people who don't question the status quo? (Unless of course, it involves Jordan, in which case you'll have no problem disagreeing with any result that doesn't favor him.)

Not sure what you are talking about, Reed won league and finals mvp which is what I said. I made no other comment about Frazier or Reed those years nor did I say he deserved any of them, I just made a comment on what happened. He basically got MVP because the Knicks had the best record in the league.

[ThaRegul8r]

[

Who cares, when he didn't deserve either? West and Frazier should have won them. Serious question: do you ever do any analysis of your own and ever come to a different (informed) opinion from what actually happened, or are you one of those people who don't question the status quo? (Unless of course, it involves Jordan, in which case you'll have no problem disagreeing with any result that doesn't favor him.)

Not sure what you are talking about, Reed won league and finals mvp which is what I said. I made no other comment about Frazier or Reed those years nor did I say he deserved any of them, I just made a comment on what happened.

And I commented that Reed didn't deserve league and Finals MVP, so it's irrelevant to me. Just like—to make it relevant to you—Karl Malone didn't deserve the MVPs he won, so it's not a point for me for someone to make if the subject was Malone. I have a brain, I watched basketball, and he didn't deserve it. It was a Career Appreciation Award. Reed didn't deserve the awards he won in '69-70.