Horace Grant's impact

[bastillon]

I think this subject deserves its own thread. here's how it's started:

and each time Bulls were unbelievably lucky in terms of surrounding supporting cast around MJ. Pippen is a top25 player ever. Grant and Rodman were perfect 3rd best players and both have proven themselves outside of Chicago. Grant was a fantastic player in Orlando and then even at 35 years old was key piece of that dominant LA 01 championship team.

This is an example of the argument I know I'd have to make if I sided against a guy (in this case Jordan), that I just can't accept doing, and I'm specifically talking about the Grant component.

In his time outside of Chicago, Grant's best statistical year was 13/9 and only had a couple more seasons at even mediocre shooting efficiency. I love the dude, and would be happy to have him on my team, but the notion that Jordan got ridiculously lucky because he had Grant as his 2nd best teammate while 3-peating is just crazy.

wow, that's in depth analysis. I don't wanna be rude, but you better come back with something better. "hey that white dude in Phoenix is posting 15/11 and he's being chosen as league's MVP, what a joke"; "have you seen Abdur Rahim ? dude is 20/10 big, he's comparable to Tim Duncan"; "wow Chris Webber is posting 27/11, he's as good as Shaq". you're better than that.

particularly when you see what type of impact Grant was making in Chicago and Orlando. Bulls regressed a lot when Grant wasn't there, Orlando's SRS jumped +3. that's not a typical 13/9 dude. not to mention that Grant's best statistical year without Michael Jordan was in Chicago in 94. 15/11/3.4 with 117 ORTG. good enough for you ?

and it's not that Grant was Bulls 3rd best player so Jordan was extremely lucky. it's that healthy Bulls were 60 win team without Jordan in 94. for comparison's sake, Celtics were 50 win team in 89 despite big names on the roster.

wow, that's in depth analysis. I don't wanna be rude, but you better come back with something better. "hey that white dude in Phoenix is posting 15/11 and he's being chosen as league's MVP, what a joke"; "have you seen Abdur Rahim ? dude is 20/10 big, he's comparable to Tim Duncan"; "wow Chris Webber is posting 27/11, he's as good as Shaq". you're better than that.

particularly when you see what type of impact Grant was making in Chicago and Orlando. Bulls regressed a lot when Grant wasn't there, Orlando's SRS jumped +3. that's not a typical 13/9 dude. not to mention that Grant's best statistical year without Michael Jordan was in Chicago in 94. 15/11/3.4 with 117 ORTG. good enough for you ?

and it's not that Grant was Bulls 3rd best player so Jordan was extremely lucky. it's that healthy Bulls were 60 win team without Jordan in 94. for comparison's sake, Celtics were 50 win team in 89 despite big names on the roster.

First off, I don't think you're being rude here.

Also, obviously I go beyond basic stats for my analysis, but when I can use them as shorthand, I do so. Fine for you to argue Grant was drastically more valuable than that shorthand, obviously you think very highly of him.

As for your specific arguments they just aren't that compelling.

You give Grant credit for the improvement of the Magic, and nevermind that that they had young Shaq & Penny going through specific improvements. I don't see how that makes any sense. And again I end up in a debate where people talk about a 3 SRS improvement like it's gigantic. Weird to me, such an improvement is very nice, but it's not a "turnaround". Lots of team in any given year go through SRS changes like that.

Your last paragraph disturbs me a bit. You just called the Bulls a 60 win team in '93-94. Yeah you said "healthy", so you're saying that this was a team that lost 5 wins to injury, and not even bringing in SRS into it now that it hurts your argument? That seems oddly rhetorically opportunistic.

Look, the Bulls when focused in their first 3-peat were a 10+ SRS team. Same was true in their 2nd 3-peat. In '93-94 they were a +3 SRS team. Having his team "only" drop that much is not something that hurts Jordan imho, you're entitled to some other opinion. Realistically, you're not going to get much better than +10 SRS in the NBA, and we've seen plenty of stars join/leave teams and have less SRS impact even when they weren't hitting any kind of "you can't get better than this in the NBA" elite ceiling.

Also, obviously I go beyond basic stats for my analysis, but when I can use them as shorthand, I do so. Fine for you to argue Grant was drastically more valuable than that shorthand, obviously you think very highly of him.

As for your specific arguments they just aren't that compelling.

Your last paragraph disturbs me a bit. You just called the Bulls a 60 win team in '93-94. Yeah you said "healthy", so you're saying that this was a team that lost 5 wins to injury, and not even bringing in SRS into it now that it hurts your argument? That seems oddly rhetorically opportunistic.

Look, the Bulls when focused in their first 3-peat were a 10+ SRS team. Same was true in their 2nd 3-peat. In '93-94 they were a +3 SRS team. Having his team "only" drop that much is not something that hurts Jordan imho, you're entitled to some other opinion. Realistically, you're not going to get much better than +10 SRS in the NBA, and we've seen plenty of stars join/leave teams and have less SRS impact even when they weren't hitting any kind of "you can't get better than this in the NBA" elite ceiling.

Bulls 94 with Grant/Pippen in the lineup RS + playoffs: 40-15 RS, 6-4 playoffs; 4.5 SRS. Bulls in 94 without Grant 7-6. Bulls in 95 before Jordan's comeback were 34-31. if that's not making a big impact, then what you would expect from your 3rd best player ?

I'll post later on Magic's improvement, but 3 SRS is to me a big impact.

prior to Grant's arrival Magic were 3.7 SRS team with Shaq putting up 29/13/2.4/2.9 blk and Penny putting up 16/6.6/5.4/2.3 stl. Penny improved a lot, but Shaq posted the same stats in 95 as he did in 94. he gained postseason experience and played a lot better in the playoffs but that didn't really affect his RS performance all that much. clearly most of team's improvement should be attributed to Grant's impact, particularly when you look at how Penny/Shaq were doing with and without him.

Magic 95 with Penny/Shaq without Grant: 5-2
Magic 95 with Penny/Shaq/Grant: 48-19

Magic 96 with Penny/Shaq without Grant: 8-8
Magic 96 with Penny/Shaq/Grant: 31-5

overall: 13-10 without Grant; 79-24 with all three playing

so without Grant they were on pace to win 46 games/year. when everybody was healthy they were going for 63 wins. Grant was definitely a lot more than just 12/9 type of guy. if you pay attention to his offensive efficiency, passing and defense, it's clear that he had high impact, surely a lot bigger than raw stats would indicate.

[ronnymac2]

Tyson Chandler with more minutes and more volume. That's a compliment.

I've always said Horace was the most valuable dude on Orlando, though I've rethought that since Penny was the only ball-handler on the team.

Horace was the perfect connector PF to a dominant C and star swing.

[That Nicka]

He's underrated... For example Horace Grant 91-93 was a better player than Rodman from 96-98 IMO, however Rodman gets much more recognition

[rrravenred]

As I posted elsewhere...

I've always wanted to ask, JB, what do you make of Horace Grant leading the League in ORTG in 92, well ahead of Jordan (as well as being 7th in DRTG, 4th in Winshares, etc). In many of the stats he's only no great distance behind Jordan. Do you rate him as more important than Pip that year?

Ho Grant was a very underrated, impactful player.

[bastillon]

97 Magic
with Penny without Grant: 9-4
with Penny/Grant: 29-17

for some reason Magic couldn't lose a game with that lineup:
N. Anderson ▪ A. Hardaway ▪ D. Scott ▪ R. Seikaly ▪ D. Strong
they were 8-1

Magic were 2-3 in the 97 postseason without Grant vs 61 win Miami Heat. too bad Grant wasn't playing, that would've pushed them over the top for another Penny vs MJ matchup. we should also consider Magic's collapse in 96 postseason without Grant who injured himself in game 1 of the ECFs. over the course of the series Magic were outscored by 16.7 ppg. you could argue Bulls were so great, but then why didn't they dominate other playoff teams like that ? outscored 47 win Knicks by 6.7 ppg and 64 win Sonics by 3.8 ppg. Magic were as good as Sonics with all three healthy. they collapsed without Grant.

[JordansBulls]

Well Grant was 2nd on the Bulls in Win Shares in 1992 and 1993 and led the team in the playoffs in 1994 in win shares.

[colts18]

This thread reminds me of a APBR post on Horace Grant I saw a few weeks ago when I was looking into Dennis Rodman

Horace won 4 rings with NBA champs -- 3 with the Bulls ('91, 92, 93) and one with the Lakers ('01).
According to basketball-reference.com, he's #38 in career regular-season Win Shares (42nd including ABA).
http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... areer.html

He's also 19th in playoff Win Shares, so if you add those in, he passes several others in career total WS.

Grant ranks 45th in RS rebounds, 58th in blocks, 88th in steals.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... tho01.html
But he's 33rd in minutes; so none of these seem really outstanding.

Standardizing the raw totals (per 100 points and 44 rebounds per team per game, say) we can compare player productions through all eras.
In standardized equivalent rebounds, regular season plus playoffs, Grant ranks 30th all-time.
Of those 29 with more eReb, he has more equivalent Points than Mutombo, Laimbeer, Oakley, Thurmond, Unseld, Silas, Rodman, and Ben Wallace.

Of 21 players with more ePts and more eReb, Grant has more equivalent assists than Thorpe, Robinson, Ewing, Bellamy, Hayes, Parish, Moses, Buck Williams, and Kevin Willis.
This leaves just 12 players ever, with more ePts, eReb, and eAst.

Of these, Horace had more blocks than Barkley, Sikma, and Karl Malone.
Of the other 9, he has more steals than Gilmore, Shaq, or Duncan (who is unlikely to catch him).
Players with (likely) more of everything: Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Garnett, possibly Pettit.

I don't think Horace Grant is one of the top 40 players ever, or that he had one of the top 40 careers, or amassed among the 40 best total anythings.
I would suggest he may be top 80, though. With no extra weight on playoffs: 110 to 120. He was a very good player for some very good teams, and he was very good in playoffs.

http://www.apbr.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3972

[Jordan23Forever]

Everyone Jordan played with was way more impactful than people remember or thought at the time! Most fortunate superstar ever! The stars perfectly aligned for him! Lots of players have been better than him but none were so fortunate in their teammates and coaches! No one else had the PERFECT FIT in terms of teammates! Most overrated player of all time! Let's start some more Pippen/Grant/"check out the '94 Bulls' record" topics ASAP!

Let's look past the fact that Jordan carried a larger burden offensively than virtually ANY other championship #1 player, and did so for 6 titles (no one has ever carried a larger offensive burden than MJ did for more than one title, and even for one title, only '94 Hakeem, '03 Duncan, '00 Shaq, and '72 KAJ even compare); let's also not forget that he was the best defender on his team for 3 of his 6 titles and second or third best for the other 3 titles. Never mind that, though - he's beyond overrated!

Hakeem, Grant, and Pippen - these were the true best players of the 90's.

[That Nicka]

Everyone Jordan played with was way more impactful than people remember or thought at the time! Most fortunate superstar ever! The stars perfectly aligned for him! Lots of players have been better than him but none were so fortunate in their teammates and coaches! No one else had the PERFECT FIT in terms of teammates! Most overrated player of all time! Let's start some more Pippen/Grant/"check out the '94 Bulls' record" topics ASAP!

Let's look past the fact that Jordan carried a larger burden offensively than virtually ANY other championship #1 player, and did so for 6 titles (no one has ever carried a larger offensive burden than MJ did for more than one title, and even for one title, only '94 Hakeem, '03 Duncan, '00 Shaq, and '72 KAJ even compare); let's also not forget that he was the best defender on his team for 3 of his 6 titles and second or third best for the other 3 titles. Never mind that, though - he's beyond overrated!

Hakeem, Grant, and Pippen - these were the true best players of the 90's.

what.. the... f*ck?

[Dipper 13]

and '72 KAJ even compare

The Milwaukee Journal, April 24, 1972

Abdul-Jabbar failed to outplay either Nate Thurmond of the Golden State Warriors or Wilt Chamberlain of the Los Angeles Lakers in the playoffs, and his inability to contain Chamberlain finally made the difference in the Laker series that ended in disaster at the Arena Saturday

Matter of Muscle

In the first round series with the Warriors, Abdul-Jabbar outrebounded Thurmond 95-89, but was outscored, 127-114. The Bucks won the series, four games to one.

In the semifinal series with the Lakers, Abdul-Jabbar had a tremendous edge in scoring, 202-67, but was outrebounded, 116-105, and was outmuscled by a greater margin than that. He actually reached the point on occasion where he was intimidated by Chamberlain as he headed toward the basket, and who ever heard of the big Buck being intimidated?

The Lakers eliminated the Bucks in six games, and the turning point occurred, with the series tied 2-2, when Chamberlain took advantage of his tremendous advantage in weight and strength and began pushing Abdul-Jabbar around. Wilt is listed at 275 pounds but probably weighs 290, to Abdul-Jabbar’s 230.

Perhaps the best illustration of Abdul-Jabbar’s difficulties lay in his shooting averages. He shot .574 in the regular season but only .437 in the playoffs ― .405 against Thurmond and .457 against Chamberlain.

Because of the strong defensive work of his two veteran rivals, Abdul-Jabbar often was forced away from his favorite shooting positions. He took hook shots from 12 to 15 feet away instead of from 8 to 10, and sometimes he even resorted to 15 foot jump shots.

Keep It Up

As Chamberlain put it after the fifth game in Los Angeles, which the Lakers won, 115-90, “Tonight Kareem was taking jump shots. That’s something he doesn’t usually do, but I hope he keeps on doing it.”

Abdul-Jabbar took more jump shots Saturday as the Lakers ended the series with a 104-100 victory, and Bucks Coach Larry Costello said, “I don’t want Kareem taking 15 footers. You do that and you’re just not playing your game.”

But Chamberlain’s dominating presence obviously had much to do with Abdul-Jabbar’s change in tactics, and Wilt’s performance against the man who supposedly had usurped his title as king of the giants must have been one of the most satisfying of his long career.

[Wavy Q]

Everyone Jordan played with was way more impactful than people remember or thought at the time! Most fortunate superstar ever! The stars perfectly aligned for him! Lots of players have been better than him but none were so fortunate in their teammates and coaches! No one else had the PERFECT FIT in terms of teammates! Most overrated player of all time! Let's start some more Pippen/Grant/"check out the '94 Bulls' record" topics ASAP!

Let's look past the fact that Jordan carried a larger burden offensively than virtually ANY other championship #1 player, and did so for 6 titles (no one has ever carried a larger offensive burden than MJ did for more than one title, and even for one title, only '94 Hakeem, '03 Duncan, '00 Shaq, and '72 KAJ even compare); let's also not forget that he was the best defender on his team for 3 of his 6 titles and second or third best for the other 3 titles. Never mind that, though - he's beyond overrated!

Hakeem, Grant, and Pippen - these were the true best players of the 90's.

what.. the... f*ck?

superiority complex

[Dipper 13]

I suspect big Luke Jackson of the Sixers was a great impact player as well, and similar to a peaked Horace Grant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1R9GatatVAg#t=1m17s

[rrravenred]

J23F, it'd be nice if you could actually post constructively in a Bulls-related thread once in a while. This thread isn't actually filled with anti-Jordan activists waving placards and igniting overturned cars.

[Rerisen]

Grant was good, but not a uniquely untypical PF of the day. I think the Bulls still win titles with a Dale Davis, Oakley, Kevin Willis, Buck Williams, etc.

His efficiency spiked thanks to the attention MJ and Pip generated. Notice how it dropped greatly - and in his prime at 27/28 - when MJ first retired, then went up again when he joined Orlando.

Horace whined a lot about getting the ball more, but never really deserved it. But I'll always be gratetful that he had the sense to pass that ball out to Paxson in Game 6 in PHX and not try to be a hero when he finally got the chance.

[Sedale Threatt]

What set him apart from those four, in my opinion, was the defensive end. All of them were excellent, but Grant covered a lot more ground, while those guys were more grinders. Horace had tremendous quickness, length and range, however. Way, way more versatile.

Could the Bulls still with them? Of course; they had the best player of all time, one of the most versatile players of all time, one of the best coaches of all time and a solid supporting cast.

But Horace was better than "good." Not only was he excellent on the defensive end and on the glass, he had the added bonus of having that money elbow jumper that fit perfectly in the triangle and complemented a player like Shaq later on.

If I had to pick a list of guys whose contributions weren't measured well in raw numbers, he would be one of them, so it doesn't surprise me that he measures out so well otherwise.

[Doormatt]

why does horace grant being good have to negatively effect jordan? why cant he just get the credit he deserves?

[penbeast0]

Everyone Jordan played with was way more impactful than people remember or thought at the time! Most fortunate superstar ever! The stars perfectly aligned for him! Lots of players have been better than him but none were so fortunate in their teammates and coaches! No one else had the PERFECT FIT in terms of teammates! Most overrated player of all time! Let's start some more Pippen/Grant/"check out the '94 Bulls' record" topics ASAP!

Let's look past the fact that Jordan carried a larger burden offensively than virtually ANY other championship #1 player, and did so for 6 titles (no one has ever carried a larger offensive burden than MJ did for more than one title, and even for one title, only '94 Hakeem, '03 Duncan, '00 Shaq, and '72 KAJ even compare); let's also not forget that he was the best defender on his team for 3 of his 6 titles and second or third best for the other 3 titles. Never mind that, though - he's beyond overrated!

Hakeem, Grant, and Pippen - these were the true best players of the 90's.

Actually JB, you are missing the biggest factor . . . Jordan never won anything until he started playing for the GOAT coach, the Zen Master, Phil Jackson. He did okay with Doug Collins (who is looking like a pretty good coach too) but no rings without the true king.

Whereas Bill Russell won 2 rings playing for . . . . wait for it . . . Bill Russell. Just one more reason why Russell is the GOAT and MJ is the runnerup. Doesn't make MJ overrated, just that Russell is grossly underrated.

[bastillon]

Everyone Jordan played with was way more impactful than people remember or thought at the time! Most fortunate superstar ever! The stars perfectly aligned for him! Lots of players have been better than him but none were so fortunate in their teammates and coaches! No one else had the PERFECT FIT in terms of teammates! Most overrated player of all time! Let's start some more Pippen/Grant/"check out the '94 Bulls' record" topics ASAP!

Let's look past the fact that Jordan carried a larger burden offensively than virtually ANY other championship #1 player, and did so for 6 titles (no one has ever carried a larger offensive burden than MJ did for more than one title, and even for one title, only '94 Hakeem, '03 Duncan, '00 Shaq, and '72 KAJ even compare); let's also not forget that he was the best defender on his team for 3 of his 6 titles and second or third best for the other 3 titles. Never mind that, though - he's beyond overrated!

Hakeem, Grant, and Pippen - these were the true best players of the 90's.

insecurity issues ?

Jordan clearly had GOAT level impact regardless. however good Pippen/Grant may have been together, they never approached the level that they played on with Michael. but to suggest Pippen/Grant weren't high impact players is to me ridiculous. particularly because we've seen what MJ was able to do prior to their development.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1987.html

so as a matter of hard fact, 80s Bulls were nowhere near 90s Bulls... and yet prime MJ played on both teams. two things might have happened. either MJ improved so much or his supporting cast got that much better. if we assume that MJ 87 = MJ 92 and the difference between Bulls 87 and Bulls 92 was about 9 SRS, then it's becoming pretty clear to me that MJ got some serious help from his teammates. whenever you have a team as dominant as Bulls, you need several factors coming together and perfect fit. you're just being delusional if you think MJ was doing everything by himself.

[JordansBulls]

He's underrated... For example Horace Grant 91-93 was a better player than Rodman from 96-98 IMO, however Rodman gets much more recognition

Add in 1994 and it is a blowout as well.

[JordansBulls]

Everyone Jordan played with was way more impactful than people remember or thought at the time! Most fortunate superstar ever! The stars perfectly aligned for him! Lots of players have been better than him but none were so fortunate in their teammates and coaches! No one else had the PERFECT FIT in terms of teammates! Most overrated player of all time! Let's start some more Pippen/Grant/"check out the '94 Bulls' record" topics ASAP!

Let's look past the fact that Jordan carried a larger burden offensively than virtually ANY other championship #1 player, and did so for 6 titles (no one has ever carried a larger offensive burden than MJ did for more than one title, and even for one title, only '94 Hakeem, '03 Duncan, '00 Shaq, and '72 KAJ even compare); let's also not forget that he was the best defender on his team for 3 of his 6 titles and second or third best for the other 3 titles. Never mind that, though - he's beyond overrated!

Hakeem, Grant, and Pippen - these were the true best players of the 90's.

Actually JB, you are missing the biggest factor . . . Jordan never won anything until he started playing for the GOAT coach, the Zen Master, Phil Jackson. He did okay with Doug Collins (who is looking like a pretty good coach too) but no rings without the true king.

Whereas Bill Russell won 2 rings playing for . . . . wait for it . . . Bill Russell. Just one more reason why Russell is the GOAT and MJ is the runnerup. Doesn't make MJ overrated, just that Russell is grossly underrated.

That is not JB man.
Russell played with league MVP winner in Cousy as well as ROY over him in Heinsohn, not to mention Finals MVP winner in Havlicek and also didn't lead Celtics franchise to it's best record in franchise history that was Cowens/Cousy.