Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever.

[richboy]

Dirk defense does get underrated because he was actually a good defensive rebounder. People look at his rebounding stats and think because he didn't average 10 rebounds a game he must not have been good. Dirk has never averaged more than 1 offensive rebound per game. His defensive rebounding numbers are solid.

I would also say Dirk individual defense is underrated. Dirk suffers from what most white players have to deal with. If your not considered good on defense you must be horrible. Amare is a horrible defender. Dirk is at least average. Remember despite the Mavericks not having much defensive talent they were a better defensive team than most years KG was in Minnesota.

I've felt like Garnett was more Scottie Pippen for years. He doesn't produce offensively like a number 1 option. His mentality isn't like a number 1. His stats are somewhat inflated by not playing with better talent. If KG played a career with better offensive players he likely more 18-20 ppg guy.

I don't have problem with people who have KG over Dirk. I think those that think KG was much better than Dirk are crazy. I think those that think KG is as good as Duncan are crazy.

[BmanInBigD]

I don't have problem with people who have KG over Dirk. I think those that think KG was much better than Dirk are crazy. I think those that think KG is as good as Duncan are crazy.

this

[thamadkant]

Would Barkley or Malone win a ring with Chandler, Marion front court and have a player like Terry to go off the bench? Terry was as instrumental to that ring as Dirk especially game 3 onwards.

Dirk is not better than those two he happens to just be playing on an era where his team was packed of semi stars just past their prime and all hungry for a title.

It's another case of what have you done for me lately.

[Elden Payton]

Would Barkley or Malone win a ring with Chandler, Marion front court and have a player like Terry to go off the bench? Terry was as instrumental to that ring as Dirk especially game 3 onwards.

Dirk is not better than those two he happens to just be playing on an era where his team was packed of semi stars just past their prime and all hungry for a title.

It's another case of what have you done for me lately.

This seems like a knock on the talent that Barkley & Malone had on their respective teams.

Would Dirk win a title with a backcourt of Stockton+Hornacek?? Possibly

Would he win one on those stacked Suns teams?? Possibly

People seem to forget the quality that those guys had on their rosters.

Dirks team was one of the least talented teams to have won a title ever (I think the 99 Spurs were the least)

[[GR]]

Would Barkley or Malone win a ring with Chandler, Marion front court and have a player like Terry to go off the bench? Terry was as instrumental to that ring as Dirk especially game 3 onwards.

Dirk is not better than those two he happens to just be playing on an era where his team was packed of semi stars just past their prime and all hungry for a title.

It's another case of what have you done for me lately.

This seems like a knock on the talent that Barkley & Malone had on their respective teams.

Would Dirk win a title with a backcourt of Stockton+Hornacek?? Possibly

Would he win one on those stacked Suns teams?? Possibly

People seem to forget the quality that those guys had on their rosters.

Dirks team was one of the least talented teams to have won a title ever (I think the 99 Spurs were the least)

That's nonsense. The Mavs had plenty of talent, people just didn't think they'd keep it up versus the younger talented teams.

And Dirk on those Jazz and Suns teams, don't beat Jordan's Bulls.

[Spottieottie]

In depth analysis of what? Exactly what kind of in depth analysis did you provide when you first stated Malone would have punished any front line he faced last year and you'd have like to see Dirk beat Jordan for a championship? You have no evidence of what would have happened in either case. All we can go by is what we know, and that is that Dirk won a championship as the main guy, but Malone never could, even when he was with the Lakers.

I'm not saying Malone is a scrub, but people are so quick to point to rings as arguments when ranking players, so why all of a sudden discredit Dirk's ring when he won it as a main guy?

Ok, so I am going off of the premise that Points and Rebounding are the two stats one would take into the most account when ranking power forwards. This is plausible, no?

(Edit: And obviously defense is important, hence Duncan being probably the best all-time even with less statistics.. there's no good statistic to quantify his defensive impact)

Points
Malone: #2, 36,928
Nowitzki: #20, 23,571 ... yes Dirk will climb more spots up this list, but he will likely never approach Malone's numbers.

Rebounds:
Malone: #6, 14,968
Nowitzki: DNP, 8,576!!

2nd all time PF... with less than 9,000 total rebounds???

Just for good measure, lets compare FG%:
Malone:51.6%
Nowitzki: 47.5%

Nowitzki is an awesome shooter.. and a great player, but *in my opinion*, winning 1 championship does not elevate him past Malone on the all time list. Why is a "ring" a magical trump card that somehow is able to eclipse a whole lifetime body of work?

[thamadkant]

Would Barkley or Malone win a ring with Chandler, Marion front court and have a player like Terry to go off the bench? Terry was as instrumental to that ring as Dirk especially game 3 onwards.

Dirk is not better than those two he happens to just be playing on an era where his team was packed of semi stars just past their prime and all hungry for a title.

It's another case of what have you done for me lately.

This seems like a knock on the talent that Barkley & Malone had on their respective teams.

Would Dirk win a title with a backcourt of Stockton+Hornacek?? Possibly

Would he win one on those stacked Suns teams?? Possibly

People seem to forget the quality that those guys had on their rosters.

Dirks team was one of the least talented teams to have won a title ever (I think the 99 Spurs were the least)

The 93 suns team could of used Chandler definitely maybe push the series to 7.

A defensive center is so vital in a finals settings. And remember Jazz and Suns arguably would be dominating in today's league also they both lost to Jordan and the bulls. Jordan never lost a finals series. He'd beat Dirk too.

[Elden Payton]

Would Barkley or Malone win a ring with Chandler, Marion front court and have a player like Terry to go off the bench? Terry was as instrumental to that ring as Dirk especially game 3 onwards.

Dirk is not better than those two he happens to just be playing on an era where his team was packed of semi stars just past their prime and all hungry for a title.

It's another case of what have you done for me lately.

This seems like a knock on the talent that Barkley & Malone had on their respective teams.

Would Dirk win a title with a backcourt of Stockton+Hornacek?? Possibly

Would he win one on those stacked Suns teams?? Possibly

People seem to forget the quality that those guys had on their rosters.

Dirks team was one of the least talented teams to have won a title ever (I think the 99 Spurs were the least)

The 93 suns team could of used Chandler definitely maybe push the series to 7.

A defensive center is so vital in a finals settings. And remember Jazz and Suns arguably would be dominating in today's league also they both lost to Jordan and the bulls. Jordan never lost a finals series. He'd beat Dirk too.

I can see where you are coming from & Chandler would have definitely helped.

Those Jazz & Suns squads were stacked though & that's why it's a shame that Malone & Barkley shared an era with MJ.

Mj is the reason people don't hold being ringless against Barkley & Malone etc as they do against Lebron.

[Dr Pepper]

After you get past Tim Duncan you can basically make an argument for all sorts of PF's as the overall no.2 guy

But overall I'd go with Dirk who is also one of those rare and elite 7 footer PFs. He was more dominant than KG on the offensive end, he'll have longevity that will probably be second only to the Mailman, has a longer prime than Sir Charles, and won a championship against the Miami Heat while being the no.1 guy. He's rivaled and arguably outplayed Duncan and KG in playoffs series prior too, and makes playoffs Pau Gasol look clueless both in Memph and LAL

[83SixersRocked]

Depends on the team and on what you value. I'd probably take Charles over him, but only probably.

[droponov]

Dirk's advantage over Garnett and Malone in terms of scoring doesn't come close to upset the gap in terms of defense, rebounding and passing.

[dyukcs]

You can make a case that Dirk is better than Garnett, you can make a case that he's better than Malone, you can make a case that he's better than Barkley. But it's a long shot to say he's better than all of them, realistically they're all in the same realm depending on what traits you value. The difference (and I think this is Simmons' point) is that Dirk is still going, so he might make one last push, but that's just a maybe. If the Mavs win another championship with him as the man, and I think they have 2 seasons after this where he'd be up to that, then that could be what does it.

And then who knows, maybe Love or Griffin will one day knock him down a peg, all of this stuff is fleeting.

[dyukcs]

Dirk's advantage over Garnett and Malone in terms of scoring doesn't come close to upset the gap in terms of defense, rebounding and passing.

Dirk's case over those two is his playoff performance. His numbers all rose in the playoffs, averaging 25 and 10, near 60ts%, compared to those two who both had their numbers drop off in the post-season. There's not a simple clear-cut argument to discount him.

[doozyj]

So now Duncan moves to #3.

[droponov]

Dirk's advantage over Garnett and Malone in terms of scoring doesn't come close to upset the gap in terms of defense, rebounding and passing.

Dirk's case over those two is his playoff performance. His numbers all rose in the playoffs, averaging 25 and 10, near 60ts%, compared to those two who both had their numbers drop off in the post-season. There's not a simple clear-cut argument to discount him.

Still the same. The baseline is low enough.

[AshyLarry]

Lol at this

dirk homers and dirk haters should really take off the bias and be fair

heres the real answer to the malone-kg-dirk-barkley question: there is no right answer, those four had such a small microscopic gap between one another that its hard to say. each one had their own weaknesses and another to counter it with another's strength. those four had too much intanjables that there is no clear answer.

THE ONLY REAL STUPID ANSWER is PF A is >>>>>>>>>> PF B,C, D

[AshyLarry]

LOL gotta love this malone dirk KG barkley talk.

first of all, i think majority of us agrees none of those guys are not touching duncan, so lets throw that out. and IMO mchale doesnt belong in the list because he was always a beta while all those 4 were alphas.

so without a further a do heres my own breakdown analysis, and all this are things i can back up on facts: (and comon people greatness of a player doesnt just based off on accomplishment or peak. its a combination of legacy, impact, accomplishment, which player to build around, and statistics)

charles vs dirk: charles had the best peak out of all those four, even arguably than duncan, incredibly efficient. but he also had the fastest decline and had the worst work ethic which didnt led him get over the hump. both him and dirk are clutch and efficient so nothing there, both are average on defense with lets all face it, dirk is a tiny little bit better than charles on D.
so in my conclusion chuck had the better peak thus a better player than dirk for shorter amount of years, but dirk can equalize this with longer prime. so really again there is no clear cut right answer here.

KG vs dirk: KG was a better defender yes and more all around. chris webber is also more of a better defender and more all around than dirk, would you guys say youd rather build around webber than dirk too?
KG and dirk have similar careers (dirk having slightly a better one with a fmvp), kg's defense and all around game can be countered by dirk's playoff success, clutchness, and being a better go to guy than kg. AGAIN no clear cut answer

malone vs dirk: malone has better numbers. both can have longevity with malone probably having a better one. dirk can argue this with being a better playoff performer and being clitch. AGAIN NO CLEAR Answer as there is a counter FOR EVERYTHING. so there is no right answer whose better than all, it is a matter of opinion and preferrability.

the above part are based on facts not opinion.

but opinion wise for me: i hate using rings as arguements but in this case (again MY opinion not facts like the above) i have to use as a tie breaker, and yes i know kg has a ring but imo dirk's ring> KG's ring.

lastly again these are facts:
dirk homers: guys lets face it, dirk had the least peak out of all those guys, he really doesnt have a case if going by stats, but he does have the best career and an arguably better playoff stats.

dirk haters: his defense is not atrocious its actually decent. dirk doest just shoot, he has a post game, he is a good passer(especially on double teams), good ball handler, and a good rebounder (prime wise, considering hes in the perimeter most of the time). dirk is not a choker, he had two bad series (miami and golden state), which superstar ahsnt had a bad series? dirk did not get an easy route to a ring, he had to go through elite teams with LMA, kobe/bynum/gasol, westbrook/durant, LBJ/wade/bosh. last i check this was not easy.

[droponov]

Nonsense. There's a sizeable gap between Duncan+Garnett+Malone and Dirk. Different tier. Non-scoring contributions matter a lot more than some of you want to believe. And Dirk's advantage as a go-to scorer is quite small anyway. (Assuming we're evaluating talent, not team accomplishments like number of playoff wins).

And can we stop with the childish hater talk? Nowitzki is my favorite player to watch in the league (and I remember that 1 year ago he was wildly underrated in this board).

In the same vein, the idea that Barkley had a higher peak than Duncan or Garnett is bizarre. At his peak, Chuck was still one of the easiest guys to score on in the entire league.

[Grahf]

Please stop giving us this revisionist crap that Dirk never played with anyone good. The year when the Mavs beat the Wolves in the playoffs Dirk had Steve Nash, Michael Finley and Nick Van Exel. Garnett had Wally Szczerbiak. Heck, if you swapped Garnett with Nowitzki on those "big three" era Dallas teams the Mavs probably win a championship. With his superior rebounding/passing/defense KG would've made Nash and Finley better, just like he did with Pierce and Allen. And lol at this BS that Garnett somehow wasn't "the guy" on the 08 Celtics. Go watch Game 6 of the Finals. It was KG who seized control of that game in the 2nd quarter and clinched the championship.


Duncan is the best PF ever, KG is number two, after that I have no idea. I loved watching Dirk's run last year but the bootlicking is out of control. Anyone who thinks Dirk belongs in the discussion with Duncan and Garnett needs to drink less paint and watch more basketball.

[AshyLarry]

i hate it when people use the "if" when it comes to arguement, its just as bad as the ring arguement.

"if charles, kg, and malone had teammates like dirk" yeah i guess charles' (chambers, kj, ainge, majerle),
malone's (stockton, hornacek), KG's teammates (pierce rondo allen) were all bad.

"if they didnt have to go through MJ like barkley and malone did." yeah well why didnt they get very far when MJ was retired for two seasons? why didnt they win anything when mj retired in 98? wasnt malone MVP again that season? didnt barkley join pippen and hakeem? im not trying to discredit them but i hate it when people bring this up like dirk didnt go through players that are top 10 and top 20 players. dirk did go through durant, westbrook, kobe, duncan, gasol, rasheed wallace, karl malone, john stockton, tmac, yao ming, chris webber, lebron james, dwade, bosh, steve nash, amare, KG, in his 13 years in the league and won.

"if charles/malone/ KG were on dirk's team they would have won too" malone and KG... doubt it, charles maybe. FACT is we dont know, there are too many ifs, we dont know and we will never know what team chemistry would have been like. i wish people would stick to the fact (dirk did win sorry), not hypothethicals (they are theories at best not facts, no matter how it could have been).