ardee wrote:But what WERE the arguments against his '67 season? "-3 SRS from '67 to '69!" It began and ended there. And I've already rebutted that with the '93 Jordan point.
If you can point me to posts where people were actually able to find arguments against the '67 season ITSELF, please, by all means.
93 Jordan isn't a strong rebuttal though because context is important. The Bulls were an 8.6 and 10.1 SRS team in 91 and 92. In 93 we know they coasted as they went from a +4.9 ORtg / -1.9 DRtg team in the regular season back up to a +8.9 ORtg / -3.0 DRtg in the playoffs... So they were clearly a stronger team than they showed during the 93 RS. After all, their personnel barely changed throughout that threepeat.
Jordan leaves and the 94 Bulls fall to 2.9 SRS... and fall to -0.2 offensively (after being +6.7, +7.4 and +4.9 the previous 3 years). When Jordan came back in 1995, rusty and out of basketball shape, the offense jumped to +5.0 in the games with him. Then he gets back in shape and plays full seasons in 96 and 97 and they're back to +7.6 and +7.7 offensively (the addition of Rodman among other slight changes were important too).
So when you consider the greater context this is a really poor argument to use unless you're trying to argue FOR Jordan's impact.
As for Wilt, keep in mind that when I say "arguments against him" I am also lumping in the arguments in favor of Jordan, Shaq, and Russell which ended up being stronger than Wilt's case (because again, none of the Wilt supporters successfully addressed any of the arguments).
This is the post that had me reconsider how much credit Wilt deserves for the Sixers offense:
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1198314&start=15#p32866734
The Sixers offense went from +0.4 in 1966 to +5.3 in 1967... As we know, Wilt stopped shooting so much and became a facilitator for his teammates, and the offense skyrocketed. And just how good were his teammates - good enough to post a +2.7 offense after he left!
So how much credit does Wilt deserve for that offense if he stops shooting and the offense skyrockets, and then his teammates prove they were a very good offensive supporting cast (+2.7) without him? Even if they were really a +1 or +2 supporting cast in 1967 and Wilt took them to +5.3, that's still nowhere close to GOAT offensive impact by Wilt... To use the scale that some have used in this project, if Magic, Bird, Jordan, Nash are in the +7 to +8 offensive impact range, and Shaq and Kareem are in the +5 to +6 range, then Wilt is clearly below them, around +4 IMO.
I used to look at Wilt's raw box score numbers (24/24/8 on 68 FG%!!) and think 1967 Wilt was arguably the best offensive season ever... but then I realize the faster pace and see his pace adjusted numbers (16/16/5 per 75 possessions), I acknowledge a critical coaching change in 1967, I see Wilt's FGA dropping drastically in 1967 and the offense concurrently exploding, I see evidence that his supporting cast was very good offensively... and I just can't give Wilt the same offensive credit I used to.
Now, his excellent defense is why his peak still ranks extremely high. But even there, his defense in 1967 wasn't quite as good as it was in 1964 or 1968 as others have argued. Taking all of that into account and not seeing any arguments that rebut any of these points that were made in the project's early threads, that's why I now view Wilt's peak a bit lower than before. It's not just because of "-3 SRS!"