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Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo

Moderators: tsherkin, Doctor MJ, nate33, penbeast0, rrravenred

Deron or Rondo?

Deron Williams
36
44%
Rajon Rondo
46
56%
 
Total votes : 82

Post#1 Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:36 am by tsherkin

So, off in another thread on the GB, this came up.

Stebo_SSK wrote:Deron Williams by no means is a better PG than Rondo. The only way Deron is better is when he has to be the 1st option of scoring but then again, teams that need their PG to be the 1st option usually arent going very far. CP3 is the best all around PG in the game, Rondo is and Nash are a toss up for best passer with Nash a slight edge on offense and Rondo far superior on defense and then Deron is 4th or 5th. Actually the advance stats will show that Deron and Nash are on par with each other defensively.

Best Passer - Nash/Rondo
Best Shooter - Nash easily
Best All Around - CP3
Best Scorer - Rose
Best Defense - Rondo then CP3 close behind

Deron doesnt win in any of these categories.



Thoughts?
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Post#2 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:43 am by Chuck Texas

I dont see whats controversial about any of this. Rondo is definitely a better pg and basketball player than DWill is.

Paul
Rondo
Rose
Nash
Parker
Westbrook

are all no-brainer better players than DWill
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Post#3 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:43 am by tsherkin

Deron has made it apparent that he's one of the best passers in the league, so right off of the bat, I disagree with that first ranking, at least with the inclusion of Rondo over Deron (and more particularly, with either of them being quite on Nash's level).

But for me, the fact that Deron doesn't win any of the categories isn't necessarily important, especially in a comparison with Rondo. I think the fact that he's an 18-21 ppg scorer typically over 56% TS. In Utah, he was also shown to be a phenomenal PnR PG. Now that the Nets aren't riddled with injuries and lack of talent (and the Little General is putting him back at the 1...), he should show that again. He showed us in his post-trade games that he clicked pretty well with Brook Lopez, so with the big center, Gerald Wallace in transition and some spot-up shooters, he should get back to double-digit assist output (and his AST% and TOV% were very similar this past season anyway), and his scoring efficiency should rebound.

There isn't a significant gap between Deron and Rondo as passers; Williams IS, however, a more valuable offensive player: similar passing or not, his utility and consistency as a scoring threat is limited. In part, that's by design because the Celtics have had other options, but Rondo's been bad enough that it's harmed his overall productivity. In a down season, Deron declined all the way to league average TS%; in his two best seasons, Rondo was just a hair UNDER league average TS%. That tells us a lot.

In any case, I'd be watching the Nets this year, and Deron in particular, and it should become quickly apparent that Deron is a better PG than Rondo because of his superior offensive ability. He's not as good a rebounder and not as good a help defender but neither is he a liability and offensive impact is more useful from a PG than defensive impact.

EDIT: Tony Parker is another head-scratcher for me; what makes someone rank him over Williams?
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Post#4 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:51 am by Chuck Texas

Tsherkin,

playoffs count a lot for me. And Parker and Rondo have proven to be great playoff performers. No Rondo isnt a good shooter and he isnt the scorer DWill is but he hasnt had to be. Jason Kidd was never a great shooter or scorer either but much like Rondo he did tons of other things that made his teams win.

I think its too simplistic to just say DWill shoots/scores more efficiently so therefore he must be the better player. I agree that he has a real chance to make his case this year with the increased talent in Brooklyn but I would take Rondo 100 times out of 100 over DWill.
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Post#5 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:53 am by bastillon

Rajon Rondo - great boxscore stats, little actual impact on either end. terrible offensive anchor, inconsistent defender & too much of a gambler. by no means is he anywhere near Deron Williams.
Quotatious wrote: Bastillon is Hakeem. Combines style and substance.
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Post#6 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:55 am by thizznation

Deron vs Rondo

Better Passer - Wash
Better Shooter - Deron
Best All Around - Deron
Best Scorer - Deron
Best Defense - Rondo


Rondo has had maturity problems in the past. His lack of a jumpshot poor free throw shooting really hurts. And there has been more and more data compiled around RealGM showing that defense for point guards really doesn't really have a large impact.
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Post#7 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:58 am by Minge

I think it’s more in regard to people’s opinions of what defines a “point guard”. In this case what makes Deron Williams better is that he can play “shooting guard” as well. Rajon Rondo has better handles and, because of how he controls the ball on both ends, is better at dictating the tempo. However, Deron can make up for more areas of what talent depleted teams might lack at other positions. One of my reasons why I like scoring point guards is because they can hide more weaknesses. You could stick a non-scoring threat at multiple positions and then make up for it with a scoring point guard.
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Post#8 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:59 am by thizznation

Tsherkin wrote:There isn't a significant gap between Deron and Rondo as passers; Williams IS, however, a more valuable offensive player: similar passing or not, his utility and consistency as a scoring threat is limited


Totally agree. I was trying to articulate something similar to this until I hit refresh and saw that it has already been taken care of.
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Post#9 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:59 am by orangeparka

Texas Chuck wrote:Tsherkin,

playoffs count a lot for me. And Parker and Rondo have proven to be great playoff performers. No Rondo isnt a good shooter and he isnt the scorer DWill is but he hasnt had to be. Jason Kidd was never a great shooter or scorer either but much like Rondo he did tons of other things that made his teams win.

I think its too simplistic to just say DWill shoots/scores more efficiently so therefore he must be the better player. I agree that he has a real chance to make his case this year with the increased talent in Brooklyn but I would take Rondo 100 times out of 100 over DWill.


Deron's been nothing short of spectacular in every playoffs he's been in. He put up 24/11 on 61% TS the last time he was there, and is a career 21/10 guy.

These are numbers Rondo doesn't come close to IMO.
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Post#10 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:00 am by tsherkin

Texas Chuck wrote:Tsherkin,

playoffs count a lot for me. And Parker and Rondo have proven to be great playoff performers. No Rondo isnt a good shooter and he isnt the scorer DWill is but he hasnt had to be. Jason Kidd was never a great shooter or scorer either but much like Rondo he did tons of other things that made his teams win.


It's not that he just hasn't had to be, it's that he can't. Rondo's been under league average efficiency, sometimes quite a bit, his entire career. He's a bad scorer and it cost the Celtics the 2010 title. That's a problem. He's also not as good a man defender as was Kidd, and he's been backed up by a lot more talent than with which Williams has had a change to work.

I think its too simplistic to just say DWill shoots/scores more efficiently so therefore he must be the better player. I agree that he has a real chance to make his case this year with the increased talent in Brooklyn but I would take Rondo 100 times out of 100 over DWill.


It's more of a conversation opener than anything else. I'm at home, I've been awake for 30 minutes, and I'm just trying to start some conversation. :D *pokes fire with stick*

And I don't know about you, but to me, Williams has done just fine in the playoffs. Those Utah teams never really had the talent to go farther and he's performed pretty well... although under the arc, he certainly had his troubles in 09, minding it was a 5-game sample against the eventual-champion Lakers and their dirty front line. Same thing in 2010, losing to the eventual champions. In 07, they went to the WCFs and lost to the eventual-champion Spurs. In 08, they lost to the WC-champion Lakers in the second round.

I think that's still a pretty good track record, especially given that those teams were mostly Deron, Boozer and not a lot else besides Jerry Sloan's raw willpower. AK, true, but not a ton of secondary scoring talent that didn't rely on Deron setting them up in set offense... and that weakness was exploited by better teams. Hard to fault Deron for that.
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Post#11 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:07 am by LakersSquad

Texas Chuck wrote:I dont see whats controversial about any of this. Rondo is definitely a better pg and basketball player than DWill is.

Paul
Rondo
Rose
Nash
Parker
Westbrook

are all no-brainer better players than DWill


I'm not so sure Westbrook Parker and Rose are better than Deron. imo he's better distributor than those guys especially Westbrook and Parker.
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Post#12 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:10 am by Stebo_SSK

bastillon wrote:Rajon Rondo - great boxscore stats, little actual impact on either end. terrible offensive anchor, inconsistent defender & too much of a gambler. by no means is he anywhere near Deron Williams.


Inconsistent defender? You sure about that?

Defense:
Rondo - Isolation: .58 PPP ranked 14th, PnR handler .71 PPP
Dwill - Isolation: .72 PPP ranked 102th, PnR handler .93 PPP
Nash - Isolation: .76 PPP ranked 134th, PnR handler .76 PPP


To make matters worse Rondo saw alot more Iso than Dwill did, giving him more room for error but he is still a far better defender and one of the top in the league. Also he plays the passing lines much better than Dwill also. Nash and Dwill are actually rather close in Iso looks and Dwill is quite awful against the PnR. I will agree that the gap in passing ability in Rondo and Dwill isnt much and Rondo has the advantage of having much better weapons the past few seasons.
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Post#13 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:14 am by tsherkin

I can see where a person would make an argument for Rose. I'd find a little more trouble with Westbrook, because he's as dumb as a post, but he's quite talented and his physical tools are superior enough that he can be played as a shooting guard. He's a less effective scoring threat and clearly an inferior passer, so to rank Westbrook over Deron, you'd have to play up his rebounding and defense... which didn't work for Rondo, but Rondo is a putrid scorer, whereas Westbrook is merely mediocre to average in that respect, so it becomes a more intriguing debate.

I'd say 2011 Westbrook has a pretty strong argument over most seasons Deron has produced, but it's only an argument, nothing definitive.

Parker, I certainly see him as on the level scoring-wise... but though he's matured and developed as a playmaker and the system doesn't call for volume assist production, he's not as good a passer or general PG as Deron. He's talented, and he's improved a lot in that respect, as well as in terms of his impact on San Antonio's team (especially since Duncan has shifted to a tertiary role on offense) but he's not really better at anything but getting that floater in the lane to fall. Well, and initiating dribble penetration because he's stupid fast with good handles and knows how to use a screen pretty well. He's won more, but he's had more to work with on his teams.
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Post#14 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:20 am by LakersSquad

tsherkin wrote:I can see where a person would make an argument for Rose. I'd find a little more trouble with Westbrook, because he's as dumb as a post, but he's quite talented and his physical tools are superior enough that he can be played as a shooting guard.



I AGREE thats why I said imo he's better than Parker & Westbrook. Rose I'm not gonna really argue with.
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Post#15 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:26 am by tsherkin

Yeah, I wasn't really responding to you, so much as to Texas, LS. :)

Chuck, I don't think you can really call Rondo, Westbrook or Parker "no brainers" as being better than Deron. He had a down year this past season during the compressed year, it's true, but so did a lot of people and the Nets weren't exactly littered with healthy talent or bright coaching, which is highly important. He's performed, and well, all throughout the season and PS but his teams have butted up and lost to the eventual WC champion (and thrice the NBA champion) in the playoffs, so there's only so much he can do with Boozer as his second-best player, right? Or even with the Booze and AK. Certainly with the mess they had in New Jersey the last year and a bit.

Comparing him to guys playing on teams with a lot more talent, especially guys with lesser overall impacts and weaker games, etc, meh.
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Post#16 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:30 am by Krodis

Rondo has a good advantage as a defender, but I think Deron's ability to shoot and his versatility as a scoring threat just makes him a much better offensive player.
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Post#17 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:45 am by LakersSquad

Tsherk whos your top 8 pgs?
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Post#18 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:50 am by MisterWestside

bastillon wrote:Rajon Rondo - great boxscore stats, little actual impact on either end. terrible offensive anchor, inconsistent defender & too much of a gambler. by no means is he anywhere near Deron Williams.


"Great" boxscore stats? A 17.1 PER and a .137 WS/48 doesn't put Rondo in the "great" grouping of players. The on-off numbers actually make him out to be a star (Rondo also has similar RAPM scores to Williams since '07 and edges him in non-prior RAPM in '12; and as an aside, if a player has great "impact" stats but no boxscore stats I wouldn't tout him highly as a player either).

Rondo's somewhere in between; a capable PG who has shown flashes of great play. And the same with D-Will, as well.
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Post#19 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:01 am by The Infamous1

Deron and its not close
We can get paper longer than Pippens arms
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Post#20 Re: Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo
Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:13 am by picc

Williams.
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