Deron Williams vs. Rajon Rondo

[Narigo]

1. CP3
2. Rose/D-will
4. Westbrook
5. Nash
6. Parker
7. Rondo

[Texas Chuck]

I love how even the guys picking Deron talk about what a dog he is. The excuse given for sucking is hes not motivated, he doesnt like his situation. All the more reason to choose Rondo.

[tsherkin]

Deron is not the same PG he was in Utah. Sloan played a huge part in his numbers and success there.

This isn't 2009 anymore. Get this through your head people. Most overrated PG in the game.

This is a foolish statement, given how he was used and the lack of talent around him in New Jersey. If he has the same problems this season, that's something else, but when you're working with Kris Humphries, Marshon Brooks, Shelden Williams and DeShawn Stevenson as your starters for more than half of a season, you're not going to look amazing.

They started Sundiata Gaines for a dozen games.

SUNDIATA GAINES!

And Avery Johnson isn't a sterling example of offensive brilliance as a coach, either.

So, playing out of position with poor talent around him, a LOT of players would tend to look worse than they did with a very good coach and a decent system with solid or better talent around them, especially in the role of playmaker.

What else did you expect? This is terrible, terrible analysis.

[kasino]

Deron is an all-around PG, I mean before a couple of weeks ago he was also a decent defender
but however Rondo is the best passing/defending/rebounding PG in the league
Paul is also an all-around PG and the 2nd best defending/rebounding PG so I could understand the edge for Paul over Rondo
but Deron is draw with anything the edge to Rondo

[GetItDone]

Deron is not the same PG he was in Utah. Sloan played a huge part in his numbers and success there.

This isn't 2009 anymore. Get this through your head people. Most overrated PG in the game.

This is a foolish statement, given how he was used and the lack of talent around him in New Jersey. If he has the same problems this season, that's something else, but when you're working with Kris Humphries, Marshon Brooks, Shelden Williams and DeShawn Stevenson as your starters for more than half of a season, you're not going to look amazing.

They started Sundiata Gaines for a dozen games.

SUNDIATA GAINES!

And Avery Johnson isn't a sterling example of offensive brilliance as a coach, either.

So, playing out of position with poor talent around him, a LOT of players would tend to look worse than they did with a very good coach and a decent system with solid or better talent around them, especially in the role of playmaker.

What else did you expect? This is terrible, terrible analysis.

Superstars elevate their team.

Nets before the Deron trade in their worst ever season had a 101 OTG

Nets in 2010-2011 in total had a 103 ORTG (Can't find it right after they got him)

Nets in 2011-2012 had a 103 ORTG ranking 23rd.

They were 4-8 with him after the trade.

Won 24 last year in a 66 game season, averaging that out to a 82 game season, they win about 28 or so games.

Where is the improvement here? Isn't he a superstar?

Im not saying they should have been a title team, but they weren't even contention in the terrible East with teams like the Bucks. He was a main reason for theit struggles. Im sorry, but I don't care whose around you. Shotting 40% and averaging 4 TOs is just not top PG material.

[PetroNet]

D-Will was probably the best PG in the NBA until he left Utah. He's had injuries in NJ, and over the last year and a half, Paul, Rondo, Westbrook, and healthy Rose have overtaken him.

Those 4 TOs per game he had last season bother me a bit and he only shot 40% from the field last season as well.

if you look at what deron has done while having lopes in the lineup i think its safe to say he can go back to what he was in utah.

averging 13.5 assists in the dozen or so games with brook in the lineup. its one thing for a guy not to carry a team. its another thing to have to carry a squad of johan petro, marathon brooks, deshawn stevenson and hump. just too much to shoulder offensively.

[penbeast0]

Deron is not the same PG he was in Utah. Sloan played a huge part in his numbers and success there.

This isn't 2009 anymore. Get this through your head people. Most overrated PG in the game.

This is a foolish statement, given how he was used and the lack of talent around him in New Jersey. If he has the same problems this season, that's something else, but when you're working with Kris Humphries, Marshon Brooks, Shelden Williams and DeShawn Stevenson as your starters for more than half of a season, you're not going to look amazing.

They started Sundiata Gaines for a dozen games.

SUNDIATA GAINES!

And Avery Johnson isn't a sterling example of offensive brilliance as a coach, either.

So, playing out of position with poor talent around him, a LOT of players would tend to look worse than they did with a very good coach and a decent system with solid or better talent around them, especially in the role of playmaker.

What else did you expect? This is terrible, terrible analysis.

SUNSANITY . . . the next Jeremy Lin, he just needs an opportunity. . . no rippin on Mrs. Gaines's little boy here.

[ahonui06]

I think Deron Williams is the better PG and would make my Celtics better, but Rondo is more clutch and still a Top 5 PG.

[PetroNet]

I love how even the guys picking Deron talk about what a dog he is. The excuse given for sucking is hes not motivated, he doesnt like his situation. All the more reason to choose Rondo.

the reason for his poor play is because he was surrounded by D-league talent.

anytime he has had lopez or wallace in the lineup, his numbers have been back where they were when he was on the jazz, if not better.

[PetroNet]

Superstars elevate their team.

he DID elevate his teammates. the problem is when you elevate D-leaguers they are still only elevated to terrible NBA players. its not like he was working with talented scorers. we are talking johan petro and sheldon williams. the nets didnt have 1 player on the squad who EVER averaged double figures in the NBA besides humphries(who had a career year BTW).

Nets before the Deron trade in their worst ever season had a 101 OTG

Nets in 2010-2011 in total had a 103 ORTG (Can't find it right after they got him)

Nets in 2011-2012 had a 103 ORTG ranking 23rd.

the 10-11 nets had brook lopez. a 20 ppg scoring bigman.

the 11-12 nets had johan petro, a career 4 ppg player.

you can not compare the 2011 team to the 2012 team. there simply arent enough of the same players on the 2 squads. 10-11 nets had Harris, Favors, Lopez, Vujacic, etc... that team had players who could score. the 11-12 nets had petro, sheldon, brooks, stevenson, gaines. not exactly guys who are known for putting it in the hoop.

Where is the improvement here? Isn't he a superstar?

Im not saying they should have been a title team, but they weren't even contention in the terrible East with teams like the Bucks. He was a main reason for theit struggles. Im sorry, but I don't care whose around you. Shotting 40% and averaging 4 TOs is just not top PG material.

dwill was the main reason for their struggles? it was the fact that they started 3 career bench players for the majority of the season?

[tsherkin]

Superstars elevate their team.

Yeah, if their teammates hit their open shots and aren't D-League-level talent playing in the NBA... no shot at Hump, he was good... but seriously, Marshon Brooks as a rookie and Sundiata Gaines? Seriously? Johan Petro starting 10 games? Shelden Williams starting 35 games? C'mon.

Nets before the Deron trade in their worst ever season had a 101 OTG

Nets in 2010-2011 in total had a 103 ORTG (Can't find it right after they got him)

He played 12 games, that's irrelevant.

Nets in 2011-2012 had a 103 ORTG ranking 23rd.

Wallace played 16 games (late trade). Deron himself missed 11 games. They started rookie Marshon Brooks (he of the 50.2% TS) 47 games (and he missed 10 games anyway). DeShawn Stevenson started 30 and missed 15 games. Shawne Williams started 6 games. Okur played 17 games.

This is why context must be added; that ORTG didn't happen in isolation, even failing to factor in the compressed season as an important variable.

They were 4-8 with him after the trade.

And? It was a late-season trade to a team that didn't have any talent. That they were a .333 team despite being a .292 team on the season is an indication that they were BETTER with him on the team, or didn't that register?

Won 24 last year in a 66 game season, averaging that out to a 82 game season, they win about 28 or so games.

Where is the improvement here? Isn't he a superstar?

Context; you riddle any team with injuries and missing major talent like that, and you'll see similar results.

If you're ignoring those details on purpose, then you're trolling. If not, then you need to learn how to do your research better. Also, lest you forget, he was being played out of position this past season as a shooting guard for much of the season by Avery Johnson, which cannot be ignored, and having no floor spacing, no consistent lineups, weak coaching support and so forth, none of that adds up to a good season. It is a team game and individuals will be heavily affected by those types of adverse circumstances.

[NinjaSheppard]

you realize how damning ur last statement is, right? You never have to worry about motivation with Rondo.

edit: in response to ninja

I really really disagree with this statement. Rondo has serious motivation issues and often takes multiple games off. Hell he took the second half of the 2010-11 season off completely to the point that people needed to find random excuses for his awful play.

Rondo has also always played on a team that was competing for the title outside of his rookie season. If you put him on a team like the Nets he might respond differently. I do think that even on a good team Deron tends to mail in portions of the season which is what separates him from a superior player like Paul but Rondo has shown that he does that also

[NinjaSheppard]

Deron is not the same PG he was in Utah. Sloan played a huge part in his numbers and success there.

This isn't 2009 anymore. Get this through your head people. Most overrated PG in the game.

This is a foolish statement, given how he was used and the lack of talent around him in New Jersey. If he has the same problems this season, that's something else, but when you're working with Kris Humphries, Marshon Brooks, Shelden Williams and DeShawn Stevenson as your starters for more than half of a season, you're not going to look amazing.

They started Sundiata Gaines for a dozen games.

SUNDIATA GAINES!

And Avery Johnson isn't a sterling example of offensive brilliance as a coach, either.

So, playing out of position with poor talent around him, a LOT of players would tend to look worse than they did with a very good coach and a decent system with solid or better talent around them, especially in the role of playmaker.

What else did you expect? This is terrible, terrible analysis.

Here is the thing though. I understand that bad players around you can make you play worse. With that said you would expect a guy like Deron to show great +/- numbers when he is the only quality player on his team. Yet his +/- numbers in general are really underwhelming. He played like complete ass in New Jersey and while his teammates are to blame a lot of the blame goes to himself as well.

[tsherkin]

Here is the thing though. I understand that bad players around you can make you play worse. With that said you would expect a guy like Deron to show great +/- numbers when he is the only quality player on his team. Yet his +/- numbers in general are really underwhelming. He played like complete ass in New Jersey and while his teammates are to blame a lot of the blame goes to himself as well.

Keep an eye on my last post in this thread, it goes into some of that a little more. The Nets were a giant cluster truck, so to speak. They were an embarrassment of a team because of injuries and lack of legitimate talent, organization or coaching impetus. It's hard for anyone, regardless of talent, to impact a team like that. Deron isn't in the Nash category of overall offensive player and he isn't as athletic as Chris Paul, so sometimes he suffers a little more than might either of those guys in a situation like the monstrous waste of time that was New Jersey's season last year.

As I said before, keep an eye out this season: if the problems persist with the team they have now (which is by no means a superteam), then there's fodder for discussion. If not, then it's functionally clear the issues were related to injuries, lack of talent and Avery Johnson not knowing his ass from a hole in the ground as far as coaching offense (reminds me so much of Scott Skiles...).

[MisterWestside]

Here is the thing though. I understand that bad players around you can make you play worse. With that said you would expect a guy like Deron to show great +/- numbers when he is the only quality player on his team. Yet his +/- numbers in general are really underwhelming. He played like complete ass in New Jersey and while his teammates are to blame a lot of the blame goes to himself as well.

It can't be stressed enough that +/- numbers aren't everything. D-Will was traded to the Nets (makes it trickier to build around him and fit optimally around his talents from the get-go) and asked to play brand new position/role (less facilitator, more shot-creation) role for the first time in his career on a dysfunctional team. That knocks down +/- numbers all the way up to the useful but still imperfect RAPM.

[PetroNet]

Deron is not the same PG he was in Utah. Sloan played a huge part in his numbers and success there.

This isn't 2009 anymore. Get this through your head people. Most overrated PG in the game.

This is a foolish statement, given how he was used and the lack of talent around him in New Jersey. If he has the same problems this season, that's something else, but when you're working with Kris Humphries, Marshon Brooks, Shelden Williams and DeShawn Stevenson as your starters for more than half of a season, you're not going to look amazing.

They started Sundiata Gaines for a dozen games.

SUNDIATA GAINES!

And Avery Johnson isn't a sterling example of offensive brilliance as a coach, either.

So, playing out of position with poor talent around him, a LOT of players would tend to look worse than they did with a very good coach and a decent system with solid or better talent around them, especially in the role of playmaker.

What else did you expect? This is terrible, terrible analysis.

Here is the thing though. I understand that bad players around you can make you play worse. With that said you would expect a guy like Deron to show great +/- numbers when he is the only quality player on his team. Yet his +/- numbers in general are really underwhelming. He played like complete ass in New Jersey and while his teammates are to blame a lot of the blame goes to himself as well.

+/- is a very poor indicator when discussing really good or really bad teams. as your play individually is watered down by the overall greatness or in the nets case ineptness of the team as a whole.

if you play with terrible players on a team that isnt winning you arent going to have overwhelming +/- regardless of how good you are.

[GYBE]

He's a bad scorer and it cost the Celtics the 2010 title.

You've trotted out this line multiple times and I find it very disingenuous. The Celtics were clear underdogs in the second round against Cleveland. It was Rondo's play in that series that allowed the C's to move on.

Of course, Ray Allen played worse than Rondo in the 2010 Finals anyways. 36% shooting from the field, 29% from 3. 1 PPG more than Rondo and his only job is to score. And of course, KG averaged less than 6 rebounds a game while the Lakers destroyed the Celtics on the boards. But you're right, it's all on Rondo. Keep up the narrative.

[tsherkin]

You've trotted out this line multiple times and I find it very disingenuous. The Celtics were clear underdogs in the second round against Cleveland. It was Rondo's play in that series that allowed the C's to move on.

He was not alone, there were a couple of things that cost them the title. Any one of them changing would have won them the series.

But you're right, it's all on Rondo. Keep up the narrative.

^

If you've seen me trot it out before, then you knew the whole of my opinion and chose to be disingenuous about the nature of my argument.

[AdamTheGreek]

I actually rate and respect Rondo more than D-Will, but I'd like to give Deron the chance of actually having a good supporting cast around him this upcoming season to make me change my mind. And now Rondo has to pick up more of the slack, so we'll see how he handles things as well. We'll have our answer once '12-'13 concludes.

[GYBE]

He was not alone, there were a couple of things that cost them the title. Any one of them changing would have won them the series.

I agree with this. If you had said "Rondo was one of a few factors that cost them that series," I wouldn't have a problem. In both this thread and the "pure PG" one from a week ago you start off with

He's a bad scorer and it cost the Celtics the 2010 title.

He's the reason they lost the 2010 Finals, though

Those statements are pretty absolute and seem to offer Rondo as the sole reason for the loss. When pressed for an explanation, you offer a more fair response that acknowledges the other failings for the Celtics in the series. But I hope you can see how the original comments might incite some people.