Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks

[MacGill]

Doesn't mean ****. Wilt averaged 30-20 for his career. If they recorded blocks that would have been near double digits as well.

Faster Pace. Much Less Opposing Defense. A lot more missed shots to rebound because the league was a lot more inefficient.

And no way would he average double digit blocks. We live in the information age now, no need to believe tall tales.

Yes exactly. Much more inefficient finishers close to the rim. It is funny that in today's era people will analyze the value of an assist (degree of difficulty) and have even gotten into rebounds. In a lot of the footage I have watched of Wilt he is usually manning the paint alone and this directly relates to the fact that many more shots were taken outside of the paint instead of taking it to the rim strong.

And by this I mean overall team versus say opposing preimiter star. Add to this that Wilt's size and length was amazing but what wasn't amazing was the post players offensive game of his opponents. Hell, I am not impressed with Wilt's and he was considered elite in his era by those who champion him.

I always chuckle when I read the article posted here re: Wilt on Rodman and Wilt stating that he isn't impressed with specialists yet that is exactly how his teams utilized him.

[MacGill]

So let me get this straight. Even though Shaq's rebounding #'s were never that high, the reason he was never a great rebounder ie the best rebounder of his era is because there was always someone around better than him.

LOL, so what are you saying here? Only the best rebounder in the league is considered good? I have given Wilt respect in that I think his rebounding would translate good into this era, he has great size and length, timing but once again you become ignorant in just spewting trash.

13 years of 20/10? I concede Shaq wasn't the GOAT rebounder but for being an offensive anchor first he was very good. Certainly slacked off as he aged and declined but the elite company of those of 12 years 20/10 should show it isn't as simple as one would think.

Wilt was a better scorer than Shaq. In every imaginable way, other than the fact that he could have scored easier points that he deliberately chose not to. The only people who call others uninformed because they use the raw numbers (and other stats) are the ones who don't like those stats and prefer other ones, ones that are invented and are not actually real.

This I have to hear And please check your own sig before responding.

[MacGill]

If Wilt played today he'd average at least 5 blocks a game, and for those that actually watched the way he played should know this to be true. You're no expert on Wilt so I don't take any of your statements with a grain of salt, I simply know they're wrong without even having to read them.

Sure he would. Would he then become a block shot specialist? You have the same line for anyone who you can't properly address which is you don't know Wilt like me blah blah blah. Wilt would block 3's, never get called for laneway violation, goaltending, and most certainly would never get dunked on. Yep, I'd buy it.

Nobody today can play as long and as hard as Wilt did. The man simply never got tired.

Wilt was a center. He shot fadeaways in his younger days, and his patented finger rolls. Now tell me who today is going to do anything about either one of those shots? I'll tell you who: nobody.

I think Wilt had great stamina but let's also be honest. He'd have to stay bulked up earlier, longer, in today's game and he'd have opposing bigs actually making him work on defence outside of just grabbing the boards. His fingerolls would be eaten alive today and I do not even think he tries that outside of practice. He'd have to become a much more polished player offensively which would mean following a certain other players work model who you luv to hate.

[MacGill]

Saying Shaq had better footwork than Wilt in his heyday, when we have almost no film from those high scoring days, is a joke.

Adjusting for pace is the biggest joke of a thing anyone could do. When you adjust for pace you're not adjusting for the way the game is played, it was a completely different league back then and it's impossible to do any sort of adjustments to make direct comparisons. The most you can do is simply state what each player did and make your own judgments. I don't make my judgments based on the raw score per say, I look at the person's athletic ability, height, etc etc etc. You pretend all this latter stuff doesn't exist and pretend that you can make valid comparisons by adjusting for pace, just like what a lot of other charlatans on this website and elsewhere regularly do.

Wilt went after every shot taken near the rim. If you doubt me go watch the film. ANY film.

Wow, just wow Watch the film that no one has but watch what you can. It is sad that even in the film available which is mostly all highlight btw, doesn't pass the eye test of what you suggest. Can you imagine when full games become available?

[Gregoire]

00 Shaq and 67 Wilt are very close in terms of impact - I take only MJ 90,91 over these seasons.

[The Main Event]

Wilt was a BEAST!! Best vid i've seen on him by far. Listen to the whole thing. Close to the end you will hear Arnold talking about how strong Wilt was. The man blocked the Skyhook! The Skyhook for Gods sakes.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2N4a9oO118&list=FLHx8MYXRwNT-AqmkEtYyT6Q&index=2&feature=plpp_video[/youtube]

[GAME TIME]

Wilt was a BEAST!! Best vid i've seen on him by far. Listen to the whole thing. Close to the end you will hear Arnold talking about how strong Wilt was. The man blocked the Skyhook! The Skyhook for Gods sakes.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2N4a9oO118&list=FLHx8MYXRwNT-AqmkEtYyT6Q&index=2&feature=plpp_video[/youtube]

Agreed. Wilt was a beast and is unmatched in being the most dominant player in NBA history. Thanks for the footage, great stuff. 26 blocks in 1 game and 55 rebounds in 1 game and Shaq never even reached 30 . People comparing Shaq to Wilt should be ashamed of themselves. Wilt is head and shoulders way above Shaq.

Wilt averaged more than 10,000 rebounds more than Shaq , pretty astounding difference.

If you look at the top 7 seasons for total rebounds, you’ll see Wilt’s name next to all of them. He led the league a total of 11 times. Shaq did not lead the league once in rebounds. Wilt’s best rebounding game was one in which he amassed 55…and he did it against Bill Russell. In Shaq’s best rebounding single game, he grabbed 28 rebounds against P.J. Brown and Armen Gilliam.

[nolunch]

00 Shaq and 67 Wilt are very close in terms of impact - I take only MJ 90,91 over these seasons.

I dont think so. Guard will never has terms of impact like center.

[nolunch]

Wilt was a BEAST!! Best vid i've seen on him by far. Listen to the whole thing. Close to the end you will hear Arnold talking about how strong Wilt was. The man blocked the Skyhook! The Skyhook for Gods sakes.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2N4a9oO118&list=FLHx8MYXRwNT-AqmkEtYyT6Q&index=2&feature=plpp_video[/youtube]

Agreed. Wilt was a beast and is unmatched in being the most dominant player in NBA history. Thanks for the footage, great stuff. 26 blocks in 1 game and 55 rebounds in 1 game and Shaq never even reached 30 . People comparing Shaq to Wilt should be ashamed of themselves. Wilt is head and shoulders way above Shaq.

Wilt averaged more than 10,000 rebounds more than Shaq , pretty astounding difference.

If you look at the top 7 seasons for total rebounds, you’ll see Wilt’s name next to all of them. He led the league a total of 11 times. Shaq did not lead the league once in rebounds. Wilt’s best rebounding game was one in which he amassed 55…and he did it against Bill Russell. In Shaq’s best rebounding single game, he grabbed 28 rebounds against P.J. Brown and Armen Gilliam.

Back to 60's NBA, 6'5 Elgin Baylor was much better than Shaq as a rebounder. He averaged 19.8 rpg in a season.

[MacGill]

Now post a highlight only video of him and use that as evidence of how he played on every possession and we finally have a worthy GOAT competitor for conversation purposes.

[LakerLegend]

I hope people realize the highlights in that Wilt video are sped up...here's a more accurate display:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDK5VDdX-yo[/youtube]

[LakerLegend]

Please show me Wilt do anything REMOTELY like this:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLDXw5lC-LM[/youtube]

[MacGill]

I hope people realize the highlights in that Wilt video are sped up...here's a more accurate display:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDK5VDdX-yo[/youtube]

Watched this full clip plus 45 minutes of the full game of Wilt show once this video is completed, 1970 vs Knicks.

67 clip shown: Wilt is able to stand directly under the basket and use his great length and leaping ability at will. As I have noted many times prior is seen left under the basket by himself to either block or collect the boards. Note the 2 airball jumpers in this small clip alone and how the finishing is soft at the rim or not at all.

Move forward to 1970, now Wilt cannot hang out under the rim a few key plays in 10 minutes of basketball action:

Wilt's fingeroll is very ackward. As Fatal9 stated, he doesn't have the core base balance and really over relies on his length. It is a flat line shot and it is no wonder you rarely even see any other player try to replicate.

- Wilt get blown by on a drive by Knicks guard to the basket

- Missed fadeaway jumper

- His normal round the world motion when he receives the ball in the post gets stripped by NYK player

- FT's missed and you can see him getting pushed out of position (something I find strange for someone who could quote 'manhandle Shaq'??

I'll continue to watch as this is a full game 1:37 minutes.

Edit: 12 more minutes 3 more missed fingerolls. Not even utilizing a post game? Side to side turn, duck and stretch?

I get as well that this game 7 is a bad game and I am sure I will hear he was injured etc but you don't loose technique which is simple to begin with, right? Shaq 14 years in could still effectively use his body, strength, positioning in the post something I am told Wilt did at a high level. There really then is no excuse for this poor execution.

Video evidence right in this tab, I'll await the explanations.

Basically what I am trying to get at here is that Wilt's highlight reel footage isn't how he actually played the game per 48 minutes. Even in the 7 minute clip you can see him jogging up the court. He missed shots, took bad shots and doesn't appear to be as crafty in the post as reputation would have it. His timing though is impecable, no wonder he could smash a volleyball, you can tell he was a great overall athlete.

[QuantMisleads]

Isn't it funny how the only game remaining from that 1967 series vs. the Celtics is the one game they lost?

And actually, in the previous game Wilt had 41 rebounds and had one of the biggest hustle games he's ever played. Newspaper reports show that he had extreme pain in both knees after the game, which is probably why he didn't push it at all in this game, particularly being up 3-0. So this game is not a good indication of how Wilt played in that series...in fact, it was his worst game.

And I mean yeah, he did not play well in that game 7 vs. NY, why I really don't know. He was a big disappointment in 1969 and in 1970 he actually well (but not great) until that last game. Ironically enough he had 45 points the game before....

[The Main Event]

Please show me Wilt do anything REMOTELY like this:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLDXw5lC-LM[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrxOe2-Lly8[/youtube]

[MacGill]

Again, I think it is silly to act like Wilt couldn't dunk etc and he was for sure a great physical specimen. This is a post of mine from the Wilt/Hakeem thread.

No, I have read all that information you provided. Which I appreciate all the detail you provide btw. I want to note with you that I am trying to find balance with Wilt here. I don't listen to the poster's who act as if he could or did no wrong and I also know he was a tremendous athlete with great size and length, certainly more than a capable player.

What I am looking from you is to honestly address specific points around technique and his overall basketball ability. I knew the knee injury remark would come into play 1970, yet you can see him running up and down the court throughout the entire game so unlike Reed who you can clearly see is hobbled, Wilt may not be 100% yet certainly isn't @ 50% either, would you agree to that?

Secondly, what does that have to do about his post dribbling? I am asking you to review the actual full game tape we have here and explain. When I watch him go up for rebounds, he still seems explosive, you see him challenge shots so why would his knee injury affect him in an area most unrelated to what he needs his knees for?

It is all right there to watch and why I do not want to see that this is myself cherry picking a game etc I want to make a few points clear:

1) We are very limited on full games available for Wilt.
2) Everyone has bad games but how often is it that when they have these bad games does their actual basketbal technique come into question? You can tie it into decision making or forcing the shot but this wasn't the case with Wilt at all which is why I am looking for answers here.
3) 1970, Wilt has been in the league for 11 years, I believe. I am having a hard time believing that he either would have lost technique over such a medicore tenure in playing or that his knee injury would play a role here. Hell, I could list countless players who had knee surgeries who never lost dribbling skill.

The point is that Wilt was supposed to be (your words) fantastic in the post yet I believe he was effective and limited at the same time. His size and length gave him a distinct edge which he used close up and certainly dominated. However, his post dribbling was not on par in this comparison or to many of the top centers to play the game and he was limited in this regard.

The problem is over the years Wilt highlight video gives the impression that he could consistently do more things consistently then what he could truly do on a regular basis. A bad game by Hakeem never meant you walked away questioning his ability moreso then execution, same with Shaq, KAJ etc. I also watched an interview with Wilt 1987 where he himself said that people view him larger then he actually was and he talks about how even in his late 40's or early 50's still had to live up to the hype.

I view basketball as a game of match-ups hence why players of these caliber's standout and dominate. So I am not surprised by match-up and especially as the game was played in Wilt's prime era he did what he did. Certainly no one could truly match that. However, that doesn't mean or should be confused that Wilt has this legendary basketball ability in skillset outside of him dominating his competition by position. I certainly do not put Shaq on Hakeem's level of basketball ability yet I place him higher in dominating the post and game by position. Hakeem though to me has a far greater overall basketball skill set. But with Wilt, his dribbling would be a liability and whenever footage does get released I am sure, like the full game I just watched, you will see this more and it goes against the majority of all existing footage we have on him currently.

Injured or not, he played, looked mobile and displayed rebounding, endurance outside of him being Arnold's strongest friend. Full games will make him more mortal and Wilt himself owns the result he created. BTW, in that same game, West looks very good, great posting post, nice shot and instincts. If that wasn't his best game I certainly wouldn't be saying he looked like he just isn't able to do it because of ability. At that time, sure, maybe that was as good as post play was but it is far from the other great centers we have seen.

[LakerLegend]

Please show me Wilt do anything REMOTELY like this:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLDXw5lC-LM[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrxOe2-Lly8[/youtube]

That's sped up too...from the same guy. Yet even sped up NOTHING in that video is comparable to what I posted when you talk about the combination of footwork, quickness, size, strength.

[GAME TIME]

Wilt was a combination of Shaq, Duncan and Dr J.

He had the power of a Shaq.
He had all the savy moves of a Tim Duncan under the basket.
He had the huge hands of a Dr J to execute the finger rolls or score behind the backboard.

Shaq was dominant in stretches of the game, where Wilt was dominant through out the whole game. He played much better defense, was a great shot blocker, and had the length, wing span and huge hands to pull rebounds out of no where. His game was more well rounded than Shaq's, where Wilt was an elite scorer, rebounder, passer and shot blocker.

[MacGill]

Yep, and there you have it folks. Wilt sumed up simply by only ever watching highlight video's of him. smdh.

[The Main Event]

Please show me Wilt do anything REMOTELY like this:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLDXw5lC-LM[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrxOe2-Lly8[/youtube]

That's sped up too...from the same guy. Yet even sped up NOTHING in that video is comparable to what I posted when you talk about the combination of footwork, quickness, size, strength.

"In terms of the NBA, we rely today on highlight reels and tapes to judge players we haven't seen. How does that technology combine with the other types of technology discussed? Take a great and athletic modern player...Dwight Howard is a perfect example. List him at his measurement in socks--6'9", 240. Have him play on a wood court that is...wood. Just wood over concrete. No give. Put him in Chuck Taylors. Have him play in a league that frowns upon over the rim play, and retaliates violently...say Clyde Lovelette gives Dwight an elbow that takes out a few teeth after a highlight reel slam. Say Wayne Embry undercuts him when he tries another after he gets back on the court a few months later. Have this take place in a league that has few games recorded, and has only one or two cameras for the games that are taped. And have there be a tape-to-digital lag that makes everything look like it's slightly in slow motion. How athletic is Dwight Howard going to look? You look at the occasional grainy footage which looks either a little slow or a little sped up, and look at his listed 6'9" height and decide he's small and wouldn't be able to compete today. "