Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks

[Ginobili]

Watching the footage, the thing I get about Wilt is one of the repeated issues people blamed him to have. The Goliath complex.

It seems, that the guy tried to make it silky and smooth some times, surpassing his own limities, trying to play like a ballet-dancer in the post, instead of taking full advantage of his athletic and physical hability and just using a power style, slamming and posterizing guys on a constant basis. This is a problem Shaq didnt have, he didnt give a crap about not looking flashy at times, he just bullied bullied and bullied his defender, until he simply dunked on him, there was nothing you could to to stop that.

When I see Wilt`s defenders, he could have easily used that style and dominated even more than he did, but he tried to play a style that wasnt really his strong suit, at all. His foot-work looks slow, predictable, lanky and not really coordinated, I dont see how anyone can say this guy is on a KAJ/Hakeem/Shaq level in this aspect (Shaq also had an awesome and underrated foot-work and post-moves). Of course, I also dont believe Wilt is the same athletic and physical specimen Shaq is, but proportionately to his peers, he could have used the same style Shaq used because it probably would have resulted equally effective.

Also, that video showing Wilt and KAJ dunks is great, but none of those dunks compare to some we all have seen from Shaq, and you can make a 10 hour mix just showing Shaq dunks. This one is pretty good, to start with:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvGpXSApZT0&feature=plcp[/youtube]

[MacGill]

"In terms of the NBA, we rely today on highlight reels and tapes to judge players we haven't seen. How does that technology combine with the other types of technology discussed? Take a great and athletic modern player...Dwight Howard is a perfect example. List him at his measurement in socks--6'9", 240. Have him play on a wood court that is...wood. Just wood over concrete. No give. Put him in Chuck Taylors. Have him play in a league that frowns upon over the rim play, and retaliates violently...say Clyde Lovelette gives Dwight an elbow that takes out a few teeth after a highlight reel slam. Say Wayne Embry undercuts him when he tries another after he gets back on the court a few months later. Have this take place in a league that has few games recorded, and has only one or two cameras for the games that are taped. And have there be a tape-to-digital lag that makes everything look like it's slightly in slow motion. How athletic is Dwight Howard going to look? You look at the occasional grainy footage which looks either a little slow or a little sped up, and look at his listed 6'9" height and decide he's small and wouldn't be able to compete today. "

Ah yes, the old chuck taylor's and wood court over concrete argument. One that as I think about it more in the pro Wilt camp confuses more.

1) First I am not going to deny that to what we have today that our footwear and court surfaces are superior.

Now with that out of the way, everyone in the league was under the same exact circumstance but it never stopped Jerry West jumpshot from looking ultra elite? Baylor or Oscar handling the rock and scoring like superstars? And yes, Wilt, making change with Chuck Taylors, all his track records with the footwear available during that era etc. So now that we know everyone was on an equal playing field, yet Wilt was apparently head and shoulders above the rest remind me again exactly how footwear and court surface when you can touch the top of the backboard or run faster then any of your teammates, play 48 minutes a game, puts Wilt at a disadvantage when no one in today's era with this modern technology, Nike Max Air's, cushioned court etc can come close?

So if you are going to throw out the poor technology card then you better be prepared to explain what Wilt could do in his barefeet (40 yard dash) and then explain to me what the hell it has to do with how good of a player you become at the game of basketball from a skill perspective?

Wilt's shoes affected his poor post dribbling?
The court surface affected him that he couldn't run the point?

To me, while I do not deny today's technology is advanced are you going to say Shaq's shoes and court surface had much to do in how good he was at playing the game?

And how come West, Baylor, Nate all look good on this same video? Does this video make West's jumpshot look like Shawn Marion's?

It is rather silly for people to bring out things that may affect a players endurance or career length but have a very small or no impact what so ever on their skillset when the players at the time were using the best of what they had and were all on an equal playig field.

If they played in barefeet you would still be able to tell skill level of players. So I put this back to you and maybe we should be going Chuck Taylor-ish as it seems it had 0 impact on Wilt or what he could accomplish. Unless of course you are stating he could hang of the top of the backboard with a pair of Nike Air's?

Regardless of footwear, court surface, it wasn't going to improve certain average skills Wilt possessed.

[nolunch]

Wilt was a combination of Shaq, Duncan and Dr J.

He had the power of a Shaq.
He had all the savy moves of a Tim Duncan under the basket.
He had the huge hands of a Dr J to execute the finger rolls or score behind the backboard.

Shaq was dominant in stretches of the game, where Wilt was dominant through out the whole game. He played much better defense, was a great shot blocker, and had the length, wing span and huge hands to pull rebounds out of no where. His game was more well rounded than Shaq's, where Wilt was an elite scorer, rebounder, passer and shot blocker.

In 60's NBA, Wilt can be the combination of everyone. He can do it all. It's just a small league with only 8 teams. He was the tallest and biggest player at that time. The biggest problem is there is no one comes closer to his size. If 6'5 Elgin Baylor can average 19.8 reb a season, how come we are surprised that Wilt averaging 30 reb ?

[Brenice]

Does Shaq have ANY weaknesses?

[Dipper 13]

always chuckle when I read the article posted here re: Wilt on Rodman and Wilt stating that he isn't impressed with specialists yet that is exactly how his teams utilized him.

No he was more the utility man. If Hannum needed him to carry the scoring load a certain night or at a certain point in the game, he did. Otherwise he was already heavily involved in everything they did, much like Russell in Boston. Bill Russell was a complete player in every aspect of the game, except pure shooting. This unlike Bulls Rodman, who would be the 7th man on Coach Hannum's Sixers. Luke Jackson provides everything Dennis does on the boards & defensively, while havlng some semblance of an offensive game.

[MacGill]

always chuckle when I read the article posted here re: Wilt on Rodman and Wilt stating that he isn't impressed with specialists yet that is exactly how his teams utilized him.

No he was more the utility man. If Hannum needed him to carry the scoring load a certain night or at a certain point in the game, he did. Otherwise he was already heavily involved in everything they did, much like Russell in Boston. Bill Russell was a complete player in every aspect of the game, except pure shooting. This unlike Bulls Rodman, who would be the 7th man on Coach Hannum's Sixers. Luke Jackson provides everything Dennis does on the boards & defensively, while havlng some semblance of an offensive game.

So leading the league in assists as a 7'1 center while no longer being the teams consistent #1 scoring option isn't being used as a specialist then?

Rodman had a knack for the ball on a higher scale then any big (and much bigger than him) who he played against during his time. The league was much better at finishing, especially at the rim per position, so the importance of elite rebounding became a much higher need. And we see that with the 3 point shot as well.

[GAME TIME]

- WILT had career averages of 30.1 PPG and 22.9 RPG.
- SHAQ has averaged 26.7 PPG and 12 RPG in his career.

- WILT averaged 50.4 PPG and 25.7 RPG during the 1961-62 season.
- SHAQ’S highest scoring average was 29.7 PPG in 1999-00. His best rebounding average was 13.9 RPG in 1992-93.

- WILT scored 60 or more points in a game 15 times.
- SHAQ has scored 61 points once.

- WILT won 7 consecutive scoring titles.
- SHAQ has led the league in scoring twice.

- WILT scored 31,419 points in 14 seasons.
- SHAQ has about 23,583 points in 13 seasons.

- WILT grabbed 23,924 rebounds in 14 seasons.
- SHAQ has grabbed 10,541 rebounds in 13 seasons.

- WILT owns the top 7 best rebound seasons ever. He led the NBA in rebounds 11 times.
- SHAQ has never led the league in rebounds.

- WILT led the NBA in assists in 1967-68, with an average of 8.6 APG. He had the most assists of any player in the league that season. No other center has ever led the league in assists.
- SHAQ’S best assist season was in 1999-00, when he averaged 3.8 APG.

- WILT never fouled out of a game, despite playing for 14 seasons.
- SHAQ has already fouled out of 47 games in 13 seasons.

- WILT made 72% of his field goal attempts in the 1972-73 season.
- SHAQ’S best field goal percentage in a season was 60.1% in 2004-05.

- WILT grabbed the NBA record 55 rebounds in a single game (against legendary center, BILL RUSSELL).
- SHAQ’S best single game rebound effort was 28.

- WILT was voted the NBA’s Most Valuable Player 4 times.
- SHAQ has won the MVP award once.


need I say more, pretty ridiculous

[jaypo]

And with all those advantages that Wilt has in he numbers, Shaq still priduced twice as many championships as Wilt.

[MacGill]

need I say more, pretty ridiculous

No please don't. Wow, now that you brought all those stats to life, I'll have to reconsider my position here

[rrravenred]

Some pace adjustment of those stats might be necessary. Having said that, I've always had a bit of a skeptical view of some of Shaq's prime averages, just because of his mandated 15-games off per year...

[MacGill]

Kindly expound upon.

[GAME TIME]

need I say more, pretty ridiculous

No please don't. Wow, now that you brought all those stats to life, I'll have to reconsider my position here

Hate to hurt your feelings, but I wasn't thinking about you while I made that post

[rrravenred]

Nothing major. Just that the averages flatter the totals.

I did a post a year or two back putting Kareem and Shaq side by side in terms of raw volume numbers over the course of a season (e.g. how many times both players topped 1000-rebs or 2000-pts or 2500 minutes). Shaq had plenty of healthy seasons, but quite a few where he didn't play close to a full season.

You can absolutely argue that I was being unfair by comparing him with an Iron-man like Kareem (95% of RS games over a 20-year career) or note that he was usually healthy by playoff time, but regardless of how devastating Shaq was during the games he played, if he didn't play for an extended period that lessens his absolute value.

Like I said, nothing major.

[MacGill]

Nothing major. Just that the averages flatter the totals.

I did a post a year or two back putting Kareem and Shaq side by side in terms of raw volume numbers over the course of a season (e.g. how many times both players topped 1000-rebs or 2000-pts or 2500 minutes). Shaq had plenty of healthy seasons, but quite a few where he didn't play close to a full season.

You can absolutely argue that I was being unfair by comparing him with an Iron-man like Kareem (95% of RS games over a 20-year career) or note that he was usually healthy by playoff time, but regardless of how devastating Shaq was during the games he played, if he didn't play for an extended period that lessens his absolute value.

Like I said, nothing major.

I have no problem as this is a fair point and one of the reasons why Shaq would never be in absolute GOAT conversation. Given the sample though over his first 14 years I do not believe had he played these games that his performances wouldn't have been anything else then the high level we saw him perform at.

And if you have it handy, I'd be interested in the KAJ/Shaq post you speak of

[rrravenred]

Tried to look for it, but failed (annoyingly).

I'll try to recap.

Seasons Greater than 3000 minutes: KAJ 9, Shaq 3
Seasons Greater than 2000 points: KAJ 9, Shaq 4
Seasons Greater than 1000 rebounds: KAJ 8, Shaq 3
Seasons Greater than 300 assists: KAJ 8, Shaq 0
Sesaons Greater than 200 blocks: KAJ 8, Shaq 4
Seasons Greater than 70 games played: KAJ 18, Shaq 7

Now it's not a perfect analogue due to pace and era differences (remember that around half of KAJ's career was without the 3, giving greater precedence to "near" rebounds) distorting the raw numbers. The first and the last of the group tell the story I'm trying to highlight most effectively.

[LakerLegend]

Does anyone have Wilt's stats before and after they widened the lane?

[MacGill]

Tried to look for it, but failed (annoyingly).

I'll try to recap.

Seasons Greater than 3000 minutes: KAJ 9, Shaq 3
Seasons Greater than 2000 points: KAJ 9, Shaq 4
Seasons Greater than 1000 rebounds: KAJ 8, Shaq 3
Seasons Greater than 300 assists: KAJ 8, Shaq 0
Sesaons Greater than 200 blocks: KAJ 8, Shaq 4
Seasons Greater than 70 games played: KAJ 18, Shaq 7

Now it's not a perfect analogue due to pace and era differences (remember that around half of KAJ's career was without the 3, giving greater precedence to "near" rebounds) distorting the raw numbers. The first and the last of the group tell the story I'm trying to highlight most effectively.

Well again, you can not certainly argue the facts presented here but I will be honest in that I am not overly sold on KAJ and still rank Shaq, Hakeem & Duncan comfortably above him. FTR I have KAJ around 7-8ish. In comparison to Shaq, KAJ gives you about 11-12 true elite seasons and then you certainly have to add in the Magic factor after that. I have nothing to argue that between the two greats, KAJ was certainly built to run the 25km run while Shaq the 100 metre (as in body types).

This is what impresses me though about him is that he was the largest elite star at the 5 spot ever and gave you 13 years of 20/10 and a very good 14th season. KAJ was already thinking of calling it quits after 1980 while Shaq was in his peak. I guess this is why I don't hold games missed too much against him because in comparison to other bigs like Yao, more in tune to the weight porportion Shaq truly is an outlier here where KAJ was his weight in either LSU or by rookie year at most. We've seen too many players get too big and not get signed because it hurt there game too much. Shaq averaged 67 games a season his first 14 years or so (where he was a difference maker) and not all of it was 'company time' which I do agree was a very silly way to handle negotiations.

What bothers me most about KAJ is the majority of his individual accolades came in an era very bleak of superstardom. Now, don't get me wrong, he did what he did but the overall cast to give MVP to was not overwhelming. Shaq not only had true 2 way bigs to contend with but the birth of the perimiter stars to carry a team. I mean, MJ, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, Robinson etc just to name a few. It also doesn't suprise me that all of his 2000 point plus performances came in this exact era (outside of 80-81). Not saying he couldn't have done it later but as you presented, facts are facts.

Then where most likely, he knows he is not capable of carrying a team any further himself, he gets a top 3 talent (to me) as the facilitator that allows him to continue his career. If Magic doesn't make it know it is LA or back to college the rest of his career is very different. Outside, of his 86 playoff performance, which again was a good match-up for KAJ, he wasn't the same 70's KAJ anymore but his overall impact on the game during an era divided at some points between two associations to me comes up a bit short all time for me. KAJ didn't have a Russell, a Hakeem and there was no dynasty team through the 70's.

So yes, he has 6 mvp's, all at a time where he really had no true rival from a longevity standpoint and in a star stricken league and only 1 championship without Magic in a time where he was in his post peak/prime years. A few good playoff performances to me don't seal the deal here. I realize one can say, well this isn't KAJ's fault, which it is not but it goes to show that in an era of true big man ball (by design) Russell was the true GOAT of the early era and he did what a player of his talent should do. Wilt/KAJ did but the impact showed up more individually then through the team but had the luxury of always being the focal point of there teams.

Fast forward to O'Neal, even a greater physical specimen then any of those listed and you see how everyone wanted to 'be like Mike' and to me, was never played consistently like he should have been. Shaq was an old school player mentally, yet the flash and global expansion of the game changed the core of the 5 spot. When Shaq had the talent, like the other's had, he 3-peated and if ego's where in line should have won 4-5 with LA alone. When you watch his playoff series with Orlando, you see the true hero ball of other players, 3 point shot, not exposing the ridiculous mismatches etc.

If you value longevity, sure I can see poster's putting up KAJ over Shaq. I remind poster's that Shaq had more elite season's then any other center in the history of the game and his ability on the court was elite. He posed as hard and in certain elements an even harder mismatch then KAJ and upped his anty as much in the post season. When poster's use the 6 chips 6 mvp's to say KAJ is GOAT, I just ask to go back and review the circumstances in which they were awarded and provide further context above just his trophy case looks full and full of gold.

[QuantMisleads]

^^those facts he listed about Kareem if you include his blocks from 1969-1973 which weren't recorded. The comparison is a joke, Shaq is nowhere near Kareem and no amount of revisionist history and favoritism towards the new era is going to change that.

[MacGill]

^^those facts he listed about Kareem if you include his blocks from 1969-1973 which weren't recorded. The comparison is a joke, Shaq is nowhere near Kareem and no amount of revisionist history and favoritism towards the new era is going to change that.

I am not sure why you seem to get so uptight about facts poster's present? If you don't agree with me, then that is fine. Honestly man, if you hate Shaq, kewl, ok but stop interupting myself trying to have discussion here. Every player ranking is subjective man and everyone values different attributes about a said player. If you don't agree then responsd and add into the conversation. I am not going to be offended if you trash Shaq, but when you seem to trash the fact of my posts when I am being nothing but respectful here it doesn't help in changing my opinion that you seem to disagree with, right?

Instead of 'this comparison is a joke' then tell me why and have an actual debate, not a 'you're just wrong argument. Otherwise, just stop responding to my posts altogether as I enjoy learning and hearing other opinion even at the cost of it seeming like I am going against the conventional grain so to speak.

[NYK 455]

Wilt was the better rebounder, but I'll take Shaq everywhere else. Wilt would have been a great center in Shaqs era, just not as good as Shaq.