SoulInTheHole7 wrote:03 Kobe
09 Wade
03 T-Mac
01 VC
92 Drexler
Rank them.
I'm guessing 01 VC is gonna be dead last on everyone's list.
I think all of them get further than the 2nd round on the Lakers in 2003 with Shaq on the squad.
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SoulInTheHole7 wrote:03 Kobe
09 Wade
03 T-Mac
01 VC
92 Drexler
Rank them.
I'm guessing 01 VC is gonna be dead last on everyone's list.
MacGill wrote:For much of his physical prime he shared or was #2 to Shaq pushing subjugating his numbers. Any other SG including MJ would not be posting peak numbers playing next to Shaq.
*Sigh* Why do the pro-Kobe supporters always choose to leave out the benefits of playing along side a prime Shaq? And what that did to positively impact Kobe's game? And it is not like Shaq never had to share the rock with Kobe as well who just happens to be #2 all-time in FG%.Kobe gets criticized for being on stacked teams but that means he doesn't get to put up historic/peak type seasons because he has to play within the team (for the most part) because the team is actually trying to win a championship. Compared to 09 Wade/01 Carter/03 TMac, those teams didn't have to share the ball as much as Kobe has had to.
Right, which is something you value right? Mike James once avergaed over 20PPG for my Raptors but everyone knew that wasn't going to be the receipe for success. Again, playing with good teammates also has many advantages and provides support for Kobe to impact the game in other area's. It shouldn't always come back to whether or not he could score a few more ppg now.
Outside of peak, look how the rest of the listed SG's are ranked because of that same lack of success in the post season.If you put 2003ish or 04ish Kobe on the 2008-2010 Lakers i think he would blow this other guys away and it would be much clearer that the only competition would be him and MJ.....
Well in all honesty, outside of peak years which is only a portion of overall ranking it really is only Kobe and MJ but there is still clear seperation between the 2 regardless of which version of him you want to place where.
Watching NFL redzone so I'm replying in short bursts. I do think there was a huge benefit to playing with Shaq. Kobe did have the advantage of playing off a dominant force. However just like the Harden situation that doesn't mean Kobe couldn't have grown without Shaq. But for whatever advantage Kobe had at not being doubled/tripled or the focus of scouting you can't deny playing with Shaq did not supress Kobe's aggregate numbers. And yes those counting numbers do count. Everything is not per 36 or RAPM.
I look at Kobe's situation and I think blending your talent onto a championship team and STILL being a dominant MVP type player counts for more than someone who just put together an elite statistical season.
I agree with you that playing with good teammates is a benefit but you can't act like it also isn't a detriment. Look at Dominique vs Worthy. Equal talents but one got the benefit of being the #1 guy while the other was part of a dynasty.
Kobe going to a franchise without Shaq would mean that he would have had a team built around his talents like Jordan, Lebron, Wade, McGrady had done for them. It doesn't just go one way for the Kobe haters......
MacGill wrote:
Yep, and then we go right back to your point of possible higher individual numbers vs blending talent on championship team and we know which one you value more .
Remember the other way for Kobe could have also been like some of the poorer success records (playoffs) that you also like to bring up about some other the other leagues superstars: KG/Nash's etc. So as you state, he accomplished what he did given the team make-up during that period and to me the pro's of that outweigh the smaller potential of increase of some indidvidual metrics.
G35 wrote:MacGill wrote:
Yep, and then we go right back to your point of possible higher individual numbers vs blending talent on championship team and we know which one you value more .
Remember the other way for Kobe could have also been like some of the poorer success records (playoffs) that you also like to bring up about some other the other leagues superstars: KG/Nash's etc. So as you state, he accomplished what he did given the team make-up during that period and to me the pro's of that outweigh the smaller potential of increase of some indidvidual metrics.
Well then we are mixing apples and oranges then.
Are we going to include team results when evaluating peaks.......