Player that this board has changed your mind about the most?

[penbeast0]

For me, the players that other posters have pushed me to reevaluate upward the most have been Paul Pierce and Steve Nash, neither of whom I was a huge fan of before.

Negatively, I no longer rate Artis Gilmore or John Stockton as highly as I did . . . Wilt I still rate as 3rd all-time and Magic I think has become the most overrated of the top 10 now instead of Hakeem the way the board used to do but they are both clearly top 10 players.

[Ginobili]

For me, the players that other posters have pushed me to reevaluate upward the most have been Paul Pierce and Steve Nash, neither of whom I was a huge fan of before.

Negatively, I no longer rate Artis Gilmore or John Stockton as highly as I did . . . Wilt I still rate as 3rd all-time and Magic I think has become the most overrated of the top 10 now instead of Hakeem the way the board used to do but they are both clearly top 10 players.

How is Magic overrated?

[MisterWestside]

I did say it was too early to take lessons from this year, did I not?

That said, forget about credit allocation for a second:

If these trends hold up, will you think it's a coincidence that other players started playing more effectively with Melo when he transitioned over to power forward? I think there's a lot to be said for Melo not necessarily playing his given role better than he played his previous role, but playing a role which takes less food off the table for his teammates than the previous role.

Then that's not to Melo's credit. More like opportunity and circumstance, because the player the Knicks actually signed to play power forward is currently injured (Amar'e). I mean, who else are they going to play PF? Melo is a starter in the league and Rasheed Wallace is older than dirt. No; Melo's there out of necessity, and he should not be lauded for continuing to play his usual inefficient basketball with "by-accident" better team dynamics. Not when those team dynamics are often (also) the responsibility of people who coach and run a basketball team.

This doesn't speak to Melo's ability to play the game at an elite level (which I don't buy one bit) as much as it adds to another infamous chapter in the long and proud history of crappy Knicks management; i.e. knowing to properly construct a basketball team. I think that players can get too much credit for roster and personnel decisions, and you'll have to pardon me for not hopping on the Melo bandwagon even if the Knicks run off another winning streak.

If Melo wants credit, he should pay Amar'e his entire salary to stay out of the lineup so the Knicks don't look like idiots trying to figure out how to fit Amar'e back into the rotation.

[rrravenred]

For me, the players that other posters have pushed me to reevaluate upward the most have been Paul Pierce and Steve Nash, neither of whom I was a huge fan of before.

Negatively, I no longer rate Artis Gilmore or John Stockton as highly as I did . . . Wilt I still rate as 3rd all-time and Magic I think has become the most overrated of the top 10 now instead of Hakeem the way the board used to do but they are both clearly top 10 players.

How is Magic overrated?

Too much discounting of the talent he played with?

[tsherkin]

Too much discounting of the talent he played with?

Hard to complain, given what he did once Kareem declined, though. Compare his 88 title team to the 09 and 10 Lakers, right? Or that he dragged L.A. to the Finals in 91 without Kareem OR Cooper.

You're still talking about a 3-time MVP, playmaker extraordinaire, hyper-efficient and versatile offensive weapon, etc, etc.

[TheHartBreakKid]

This is kind of weird, but negative for me has to be Kobe. Before I came on realgm, I was a Laker fanboy high school kid who only saw Laker games...so imagine after Kobe's 2006 season, watching him drop all those crazy games, it's only fitting I thought he was the GOAT. Realgm put numbers in perspective for me, and while i still feel like he's a bit undervalued here, I realized that while his game looks amazing to watch, the numbers don't like, and Kobe will never touch MJ no matter what as the GOAT. However, I've gained to appreciate Kobe for his longevity over the years.


Positive- Jordan. All the stories, stats, etc. They just don't lie...he is truly LBJ's statistical dominance combined with Kobe's "winner/hardworking" persona

[Bank Shot]

Positive: Garnett which I'm not too happy about. Its much easier to cheer against a guy when he's both overrated and a dbag

Negative: Bird a little bit. Some of those playoff dips and failures are pretty glaring. Moses as well. I used to have him 11 but now I've dropped him quite a bit.

I personally don't buy the anti-Wilt arguments as much as some people do here. I've penbeast made some good arguments for Wilt and I think he's underrated in the top 100 and peak threads. I thought there were some good arguments against Wilt in the top 100 (don't necessarily agree with them but there were some good points) but the peak arguments were weaker. I was pretty surprised at Russell over Wilt peak wise and I have Russell as my number 2 guy of all time. I am happy with the pro-Russell movement that has started on here the last couple years.

[Doctor MJ]

I did say it was too early to take lessons from this year, did I not?

That said, forget about credit allocation for a second:

If these trends hold up, will you think it's a coincidence that other players started playing more effectively with Melo when he transitioned over to power forward? I think there's a lot to be said for Melo not necessarily playing his given role better than he played his previous role, but playing a role which takes less food off the table for his teammates than the previous role.

Then that's not to Melo's credit. More like opportunity and circumstance, because the player the Knicks actually signed to play power forward is currently injured (Amar'e). I mean, who else are they going to play PF? Melo is a starter in the league and Rasheed Wallace is older than dirt. No; Melo's there out of necessity, and he should not be lauded for continuing to play his usual inefficient basketball with "by-accident" better team dynamics. Not when those team dynamics are often (also) the responsibility of people who coach and run a basketball team.

This doesn't speak to Melo's ability to play the game at an elite level (which I don't buy one bit) as much as it adds to another infamous chapter in the long and proud history of crappy Knicks management; i.e. knowing to properly construct a basketball team. I think that players can get too much credit for roster and personnel decisions, and you'll have to pardon me for not hopping on the Melo bandwagon even if the Knicks run off another winning streak.

If Melo wants credit, he should pay Amar'e his entire salary to stay out of the lineup so the Knicks don't look like idiots trying to figure out how to fit Amar'e back into the rotation.

Well first and foremost, as I said, let's note the existence of the phenomenon.

Secondly though: You say "someone has to play PF". Sure, but the Knicks don't have to be good. If the Knicks continue playing like they do, clearly everyone involved needs to be lauded. Certainly possible for Melo to get too much credit, likely even, but he deserves some of the credit.

I'll also just emphasize: It's not like Melo hasn't put up basic stats worthy of being a star. That's why people have long considered him a star. We of the erudite simply recognize that his production has always come with a great deal of counter-production. If by shifting his role he can achieve the same good with far less bad, then this is how he should be used and thus the context under which his level of goodness should be assessed. Not that that retroactively makes his prior career more worthwhile, but I'm not going to hold his prior issues against him when evaluating his current play.

[Dr Positivity]

Melo is actually playing differently this year. He's doing well defensively and is helping move the ball. Strangely enough I think Melo might be a better fit at the 4 defensively than the 3 in the modern NBA. Having a 4 man who's super fast lateral footspeed wise compared to other PFs is a nice thing to have

[MisterWestside]

Well first and foremost, as I said, let's note the existence of the phenomenon.

Certainly noted.

Secondly though: You say "someone has to play PF". Sure, but the Knicks don't have to be good. If the Knicks continue playing like they do, clearly everyone involved needs to be lauded. Certainly possible for Melo to get too much credit, likely even, but he deserves some of the credit.

I don't think so. If the logic here is "team plays well, therefore each individual on the team is playing well (or should be recognized for playing well)" then I emphatically disagree. Is Prigoni playing well? Is this season's Steve Novak playing well, at least compared to '12 crappy/mediocre Knicks Steve Novak?

Right now, I'll credit three players for playing "well" on that team (once you account for roles of course): Kidd, Smith, and Chandler. Melo is, well...solid. But that's not new. If you want to then say "Well, that position shift helps his teammates" then fine; but I'll credit Woodson and blind luck (Amar'e not being in the lineup) for that, not Melo's basketball genius.

I'll also just emphasize: It's not like Melo hasn't put up basic stats worthy of being a star. That's why people have long considered him a star. We of the erudite simply recognize that his production has always come with a great deal of counter-production. If by shifting his role he can achieve the same good with far less bad, then this is how he should be used and thus the context under which his level of goodness should be assessed. Not that that retroactively makes his prior career more worthwhile, but I'm not going to hold his prior issues against him when evaluating his current play.

But here's the thing: his current play doesn't impress me, either. Still a chucker, still inefficient, still a "meh" defender (although he can impress when he decides to play defense, but that criticism has followed him his whole career). What we're doing is praising him for playing virtually the same at a different position, in a move that wasn't even by design. Hooray for "WINNING!" and team dynamics, I guess? Who's still going to be on the Melo bandwagon (not you specifically; those who are on it now) when Amar'e suits up and wants his PF spot back, and Melo goes back to playing Melo ball at SF? Is that the equivalent of taking the lipstick and makeup off of the farm pig?

[penbeast0]

What was wrong with Novak in 12? For what he is . . . a one dimensional 3 point shooting role player, the 11-12 season is one of the greatest of all time. He's never been able to do anything else at an NBA caliber level -- weak handles, rebounding, defense, etc. and probably never will but for what he is, the 11-12 season was pretty impressive.

[Ginobili]

For me, the players that other posters have pushed me to reevaluate upward the most have been Paul Pierce and Steve Nash, neither of whom I was a huge fan of before.

Negatively, I no longer rate Artis Gilmore or John Stockton as highly as I did . . . Wilt I still rate as 3rd all-time and Magic I think has become the most overrated of the top 10 now instead of Hakeem the way the board used to do but they are both clearly top 10 players.

How is Magic overrated?

Too much discounting of the talent he played with?

Actually, id say the opposite, too much overrating of the talent he played with.

No doubt Worthy, old Kareem, Cooper, Byron Scott...etc were great players in their own right, but they all got much better playing with Magic. For a guy like Scott for example, I dont imagine him being that effective and good (didnt he lead a championship team in scoring once?) without playing with Magic, or even Worthy, who I never considered to be a true first option like some have argued, he wasnt better than true contemporary first-options like Dominique, he just happened to benefit from Magic`s offensive genius.

Also, regarding Kareem, you can blame Magic for extending his career that much and actually making it effective.

If this forum loves and praises Nash for his offensive mastery and the hability to make his teammates better than they actually are, than that should be multiplicated by 100 with Magic Johnson, who in my opinion, is the best offensive player of all time.

Also, like tsherking said before, Magic got to the Finals and sometimes won the chip playing in not the most talented team around. For example, in 1988 the Pistons were probably a better team overall, or in 1991, where he took his team to the Finals and they werent really as talented as the 1991 Blazers, not close actually.

[TwentyOne920]

What was wrong with Novak in 12? For what he is . . . a one dimensional 3 point shooting role player, the 11-12 season is one of the greatest of all time. He's never been able to do anything else at an NBA caliber level -- weak handles, rebounding, defense, etc. and probably never will but for what he is, the 11-12 season was pretty impressive.

And sometimes, doing one thing very well at the NBA level is enough to win games. Dennis Rodman made a career of having virtually nil offensive game but preventing opposing wings and bigs from scoring AND grabbing the board every single time.

[ardee]

It's just I can't think of any player in history who undid most of his own good for his first 9 years of NBA ball who then made a switch and became a true impact superstar.

All roads lead back to Wilt.

After his 9th season Wilt was with the Lakers.

I quite clearly said that there was no player in history who made the transformation after their 9th year. Wilt was to be included in that statement.

Agreed. The Melo love is strange right now. Winning cures all it seems.

Not sure what you're implying about Wilt though.... That he was never a true impact superstar?

[ardee]

Almost everyone is saying wilt

You doubted that? Nearly everyone on his board, even if they're really good and knowledgeable posters like Doctor MJ, ElGee, MacGill or fatal9, is out to demean Wilt's accomplishments. You just need to open a random thread and read a few posts to realize Wilt is like Satan in the PC board.

[MisterWestside]

What was wrong with Novak in 12? For what he is . . . a one dimensional 3 point shooting role player, the 11-12 season is one of the greatest of all time. He's never been able to do anything else at an NBA caliber level -- weak handles, rebounding, defense, etc. and probably never will but for what he is, the 11-12 season was pretty impressive.

No I agree with you; I think you misunderstood my point. Compared to his amazing '12, Novak isn't playing as well this season, but the Knicks are currently playing at their highest level in the Melo era. If someone used the "team wins ---> individual greatness" logic here, you'd falsely conclude Novak is playing at some noteworthy level, relatively speaking. He's been good; just not at his ridiculous '12 levels (despite the Knicks success thus far).

[MisterWestside]

You doubted that? Nearly everyone on his board, even if they're really good and knowledgeable posters like Doctor MJ, ElGee, MacGill or fatal9, is out to demean Wilt's accomplishments. You just need to open a random thread and read a few posts to realize Wilt is like Satan in the PC board.

I personally loved the Wilt-Roy Hibbert comparisons.

And you know, I have yet to read an argument that warrants dropping Wilt on an all-time rankings list. All that their arguments have showed me is that if you're putting teams together in the 60s-early 70s, you should probably work your offenses out of the high post.

[TheKingOfVa360]

Positive : KG and Duncan

Negative: Stockton and David Robinson

[Doctor MJ]

Almost everyone is saying wilt

You doubted that? Nearly everyone on his board, even if they're really good and knowledgeable posters like Doctor MJ, ElGee, MacGill or fatal9, is out to demean Wilt's accomplishments. You just need to open a random thread and read a few posts to realize Wilt is like Satan in the PC board.

Just to clarify the obvious hyperbole:

I don't "hate" Wilt. To some degree while I make clear that I think the term "hater" is way overused, I understand that I've been polarized against some player, but these players are from the RealGM era. With Wilt, I don't have a problem talking about his best achievements with admiration, and really my primary feeling associated when he comes up is just fascination.

I really think that if you want to understand the game of basketball by analyzing only one player, Wilt is the player you should study.

[Swimmer]

For me, I'd say I am more upbeat about Bird, Shaq, and Robinson for very different reasons. I am down on Malone, Barkley, and Pippen.