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How good was 2003 Kevin Garnett?

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Post#1 How good was 2003 Kevin Garnett?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:05 pm by JordansBulls

The guy led the Twolves in Points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks in average and in totals.
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Post#2 Re: How good was 2003 Kevin Garnett?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:16 pm by MacGill

Hoping DRZA jumps in here as he has some great KG recaps. However, he may not be getting much sleep lately ;)
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Post#3 Re: How good was 2003 Kevin Garnett?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:02 pm by ardee

Almost as good as 2004 Kevin Garnett. His Playoffs was ridiculous, I was rewatching that 35/20/7 game he dropped on LA, he was practically EVERYWHERE.

Here's a post from drza about KG in '03 and '04 that's stuck with me.


After going through the Kings '04 series more in depth, I decided to look at all of peak KG's wins over the elite competition ('03 Lakers, '04 Kings, '04 Lakers). The Wolves won 8 out of 19 games over those 2 series. Here are the results from those 8 wins:

The opponent averaged 90.5 points on 39.5% FG in those 8 games for an ORtg of 96.9. The Kings (4 games, season ORtg 110.2), '03 Lakers (2 games, season ORtg 105.5) and '04 Lakers (2 games, season ORtg 107.2) had a weighted average ORtg of 108.3. That's a composite -11.4 on defense for the Wolves in the 8 wins. (And both of those Lakers teams performed at higher levels than their season averages when their core guys were healthy, which they were against the Wolves. ElGee can give you the specifics on how much better). By the way, those Wolves had no other elite defenders except KG, and they were playing in a Flip Saunders system with zero defensive focus.

In those 8 wins, Garnett averaged 29.4 points on 56.9% TS, 15.4 boards, 3.8 assists, 2.1 steals, 3.3 blocks, and an average game score of 26.0. And remember, this is all at very low paces historically. The Wolves' pace was around 90, while the '77 Blazers were at 108 and the 60s were faster still. If we pace adjusted to those times, we'd be looking at scoring on the order of Wilt's or Kareem's career playoff highs.

And it should be noted that of the 8 wins, 5 of them were by 5 points or less and 2 were in overtime. So they were BARELY winning...KG had to perform at this level for them to even squeak out wins over elite opponents.

So in summary, for those Wolves to win, KG had to score like Wilt, play defense like Russell, and run his team's offense from the high-post like Walton (if not running the PG outright).


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Post#4 Re: How good was 2003 Kevin Garnett?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:20 pm by Kobe Bean

ardee wrote:Almost as good as 2004 Kevin Garnett. His Playoffs was ridiculous, I was rewatching that 35/20/7 game he dropped on LA, he was practically EVERYWHERE.

Here's a post from drza about KG in '03 and '04 that's stuck with me.


After going through the Kings '04 series more in depth, I decided to look at all of peak KG's wins over the elite competition ('03 Lakers, '04 Kings, '04 Lakers). The Wolves won 8 out of 19 games over those 2 series. Here are the results from those 8 wins:

The opponent averaged 90.5 points on 39.5% FG in those 8 games for an ORtg of 96.9. The Kings (4 games, season ORtg 110.2), '03 Lakers (2 games, season ORtg 105.5) and '04 Lakers (2 games, season ORtg 107.2) had a weighted average ORtg of 108.3. That's a composite -11.4 on defense for the Wolves in the 8 wins. (And both of those Lakers teams performed at higher levels than their season averages when their core guys were healthy, which they were against the Wolves. ElGee can give you the specifics on how much better). By the way, those Wolves had no other elite defenders except KG, and they were playing in a Flip Saunders system with zero defensive focus.

In those 8 wins, Garnett averaged 29.4 points on 56.9% TS, 15.4 boards, 3.8 assists, 2.1 steals, 3.3 blocks, and an average game score of 26.0. And remember, this is all at very low paces historically. The Wolves' pace was around 90, while the '77 Blazers were at 108 and the 60s were faster still. If we pace adjusted to those times, we'd be looking at scoring on the order of Wilt's or Kareem's career playoff highs.

And it should be noted that of the 8 wins, 5 of them were by 5 points or less and 2 were in overtime. So they were BARELY winning...KG had to perform at this level for them to even squeak out wins over elite opponents.

So in summary, for those Wolves to win, KG had to score like Wilt, play defense like Russell, and run his team's offense from the high-post like Walton (if not running the PG outright).




That was beautiful

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Post#5 Re: How good was 2003 Kevin Garnett?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:52 pm by RayBan-Sematra

He was the 3rd best player in the league that year after Duncan & Shaq.
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Post#6 Re: How good was 2003 Kevin Garnett?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:05 pm by G35

ardee wrote:Almost as good as 2004 Kevin Garnett. His Playoffs was ridiculous, I was rewatching that 35/20/7 game he dropped on LA, he was practically EVERYWHERE.

Here's a post from drza about KG in '03 and '04 that's stuck with me.



And it should be noted that of the 8 wins, 5 of them were by 5 points or less and 2 were in overtime. So they were BARELY winning...KG had to perform at this level for them to even squeak out wins over elite opponents.

So in summary, for those Wolves to win, KG had to score like Wilt, play defense like Russell, and run his team's offense from the high-post like Walton (if not running the PG outright).





All three which were not within KG's ability.

Of the three KG had the best chance to duplicate Russell's defense but he wasn't nearly the shot blocker that Bill was, nor was his teams DRtg's anywhere near what the Celtics produced. ~cue the lack of talent excuse, but those Celtics were not a bunch of defensive specialists either~

Passing KG never got a team altogether like Walton did in his peak year with the Blazers. ~Walton is a bad comparison because this is exactly the type of performance I'm talking about when I say that KG NEVER beat an opponent he wasn't suppose to beat. That is typically the excuse you get, but those Blazers had to beat higher seeded teams in Denver, Lakers, and Sixers.~

And we all know that when talk about scoring like Wilt we mean when he was scoring 40+ppg. KG never remotely showed that sort of ability.

Great season by KG but we don't have to drift off into fantasy land to tout KG's peak seasons.....
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Post#7 Re: How good was 2003 Kevin Garnett?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:54 pm by MacGill

G35 wrote:
ardee wrote:Almost as good as 2004 Kevin Garnett. His Playoffs was ridiculous, I was rewatching that 35/20/7 game he dropped on LA, he was practically EVERYWHERE.

Here's a post from drza about KG in '03 and '04 that's stuck with me.



And it should be noted that of the 8 wins, 5 of them were by 5 points or less and 2 were in overtime. So they were BARELY winning...KG had to perform at this level for them to even squeak out wins over elite opponents.

So in summary, for those Wolves to win, KG had to score like Wilt, play defense like Russell, and run his team's offense from the high-post like Walton (if not running the PG outright).





All three which were not within KG's ability.

Of the three KG had the best chance to duplicate Russell's defense but he wasn't nearly the shot blocker that Bill was, nor was his teams DRtg's anywhere near what the Celtics produced. ~cue the lack of talent excuse, but those Celtics were not a bunch of defensive specialists either~

Passing KG never got a team altogether like Walton did in his peak year with the Blazers. ~Walton is a bad comparison because this is exactly the type of performance I'm talking about when I say that KG NEVER beat an opponent he wasn't suppose to beat. That is typically the excuse you get, but those Blazers had to beat higher seeded teams in Denver, Lakers, and Sixers.~

And we all know that when talk about scoring like Wilt we mean when he was scoring 40+ppg. KG never remotely showed that sort of ability.

Great season by KG but we don't have to drift off into fantasy land to tout KG's peak seasons.....


Man you are all over the place aren't you? Now a defensive first player doesn't make the cut for you? It must be easy to simply judge impact over 50 years of ball to tear down KG :-? I mean, imagine he won the title and had to be included as part of your winning bias evaluation. Wally for MVP, I guess 8-)
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Post#8 Re: How good was 2003 Kevin Garnett?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:19 pm by kaima

Using the Nash ORTG(!!!!!) standard that RealGM's regulars love with KG on D: he was pretty overrated, and remains so.

The RAPM arguments made for KG don't dovetail with team DRTG, yet the same adherents of these two systems, at least when convenient, only look at the former while ignoring the latter.

From my standpoint? I think KG's an outstanding player, particularly as an overall defender, but that he was always too passive on offensive and highly questionable as a team defensive lynchpin, either as a prototypical frontcourt player or as backcourt trapper (he, honestly, reminds me of a lesser Pippen as far as many defensive issues). His Point Forward abilities often became a weakness with deference on offense in close games rather than control and facilitation.

I'm not a fan of DRTG/ORTG as THE measure on either side of the ball, but for those who are it's certainly amusing to watch them ignore the elephant in the room while hyping KG as the best defensive player of his generation; frankly, the TWolves were typically mediocre to weak in defensive standards year by year with KG, as can be seen in play by play.

In summation, was KG a truly dominant offensive player? No, he wasn't. And the defense did not show up in a truly dominant or disruptive fashion against good to great opponents during his time with the Wolves.
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Post#9 Re: How good was 2003 Kevin Garnett?
Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:40 pm by Swimmer

kaima wrote:The RAPM arguments made for KG don't dovetail with team DRTG, yet the same adherents of these two systems, at least when convenient, only look at the former while ignoring the latter.

frankly, the TWolves were typically mediocre to weak in defensive standards year by year with KG, as can be seen in play by play.


I'm pretty sure this was addressed above. The team defensively without Garnett was poor. The team defensively with Garnett on defense was mediocre. How does that not line up with RAPM?

G35 wrote:
All three which were not within KG's ability.

Of the three KG had the best chance to duplicate Russell's defense but he wasn't nearly the shot blocker that Bill was, nor was his teams DRtg's anywhere near what the Celtics produced. ~cue the lack of talent excuse, but those Celtics were not a bunch of defensive specialists either~

Passing KG never got a team altogether like Walton did in his peak year with the Blazers. ~Walton is a bad comparison because this is exactly the type of performance I'm talking about when I say that KG NEVER beat an opponent he wasn't suppose to beat. That is typically the excuse you get, but those Blazers had to beat higher seeded teams in Denver, Lakers, and Sixers.~

And we all know that when talk about scoring like Wilt we mean when he was scoring 40+ppg. KG never remotely showed that sort of ability.

Great season by KG but we don't have to drift off into fantasy land to tout KG's peak seasons.....


Again, for the most part addressed by drza. I don't think he's claiming KG reached the peaks of Russell + Walton + Wilt, just that he had to flash all of those skillsets just to keep his team in the game.

-- Defense. C'mon now, are you comparing the Wolves defensive abilities to the Celtics.....
-- Passing. What does your argument have anything to do with his passing abilities? Way to just throw out other random hate for KG.
-- Scoring. Drza compared part of this through a pace adjustment.
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Post#10 Re: How good was 2003 Kevin Garnett?
Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:56 pm by G35

MacGill wrote:
Man you are all over the place aren't you? Now a defensive first player doesn't make the cut for you? It must be easy to simply judge impact over 50 years of ball to tear down KG :-? I mean, imagine he won the title and had to be included as part of your winning bias evaluation. Wally for MVP, I guess 8-)



How am I all over the place? There are two players that take advantage of this new statistical re-ranking of players and it's Nash and KG. Imo both have a major flaw in their game. In KG's case he is not a true #1 option and isn't a traditional big that you can build around. I would rather my big play more in the paint and not running around the perimeter on offense or defense. He also took advantage of Thibodeau's defensive principles that took advantage of his unique skills that weren't so apparent in Minnesota. In other words just like D'Antoni helped Nash's career, Thib's did the same thing for KG.

I don't mind KG getting all the love he gets but when he is seen as better than players like Moses, DRob, Duncan, and others then I don't see it. I see KG being more on the Dirk/Wade level of players than a top 15 guy as most others on the PC board have him.....
I'm so tired of the typical......
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Post#11 Re: How good was 2003 Kevin Garnett?
Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:15 pm by The Infamous1

"Score like wilt" is a little much
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Post#12 Re: How good was 2003 Kevin Garnett?
Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:21 pm by G35

Swimmer wrote:
kaima wrote:The RAPM arguments made for KG don't dovetail with team DRTG, yet the same adherents of these two systems, at least when convenient, only look at the former while ignoring the latter.

frankly, the TWolves were typically mediocre to weak in defensive standards year by year with KG, as can be seen in play by play.


I'm pretty sure this was addressed above. The team defensively without Garnett was poor. The team defensively with Garnett on defense was mediocre. How does that not line up with RAPM?

G35 wrote:
All three which were not within KG's ability.

Of the three KG had the best chance to duplicate Russell's defense but he wasn't nearly the shot blocker that Bill was, nor was his teams DRtg's anywhere near what the Celtics produced. ~cue the lack of talent excuse, but those Celtics were not a bunch of defensive specialists either~

Passing KG never got a team altogether like Walton did in his peak year with the Blazers. ~Walton is a bad comparison because this is exactly the type of performance I'm talking about when I say that KG NEVER beat an opponent he wasn't suppose to beat. That is typically the excuse you get, but those Blazers had to beat higher seeded teams in Denver, Lakers, and Sixers.~

And we all know that when talk about scoring like Wilt we mean when he was scoring 40+ppg. KG never remotely showed that sort of ability.

Great season by KG but we don't have to drift off into fantasy land to tout KG's peak seasons.....


Again, for the most part addressed by drza. I don't think he's claiming KG reached the peaks of Russell + Walton + Wilt, just that he had to flash all of those skillsets just to keep his team in the game.

-- Defense. C'mon now, are you comparing the Wolves defensive abilities to the Celtics.....
-- Passing. What does your argument have anything to do with his passing abilities? Way to just throw out other random hate for KG.
-- Scoring. Drza compared part of this through a pace adjustment.


I'm not comparing the two teams defensive abilities. I'm saying that KG was a perfect fit for Thibodeau's system, recognize the difference. KG"s impact was nowhere near what it was when playing under TT.

I'm addressing the point that KG was compared to Walton. It's not random hate. KG did not lift his teammates up to the same level that Walton did.

In fact I can sum up my whole point that it was intimated that KG had to have the abilities of three legendary big men at the same time for the Wolves to win. That is exaggeration of KG homerism to the fullest. I don't see you addressing that. And "flashing" the skillset of another player is not quite the same as having it now is it. Didn't Anthony Randolph "flash" the ability of Magic Johnson, doesn't quite mean he did it consistently or at the same peak level. So why make the comparison?.....
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Post#13 Re: How good was 2003 Kevin Garnett?
Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:53 pm by Swimmer

G35 wrote:I'm not comparing the two teams defensive abilities. I'm saying that KG was a perfect fit for Thibodeau's system, recognize the difference. KG"s impact was nowhere near what it was when playing under TT.

I'm addressing the point that KG was compared to Walton. It's not random hate. KG did not lift his teammates up to the same level that Walton did.

In fact I can sum up my whole point that it was intimated that KG had to have the abilities of three legendary big men at the same time for the Wolves to win. That is exaggeration of KG homerism to the fullest. I don't see you addressing that. And "flashing" the skillset of another player is not quite the same as having it now is it. Didn't Anthony Randolph "flash" the ability of Magic Johnson, doesn't quite mean he did it consistently or at the same peak level. So why make the comparison?.....


I don't think KG is a system defensive player. He would be a perfect fit in any defensive system. In fact, that was a major (perhaps, the major) bulk of his value with the Wolves, during the TT era, as well as afterwards.

I'm not sure it's fair to call drza a KG homer. If I recall, he was somewhat of a KG hater for quite a while.

Anthony Randolph flashed that sort of potential skill on certain plays. KG flashed play at that level for multiple games in the playoffs. He is obviously not Russell + Walton + Wilt for his career, as that would make him a) the GOAT and b) a massive fail of a career. However, he could play for a few games at a level that most other players cannot reach.
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Post#14 Re: How good was 2003 Kevin Garnett?
Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:14 pm by JordansBulls

RayBan-Sematra wrote:He was the 3rd best player in the league that year after Duncan & Shaq.


Duncan I agree with, but Shaq ahead of KG that year? Shaq had another top 5 player by his side that season and the Twolves still ended up with a better record. And it isn't like the Twolves had depth either.
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Post#15 Re: How good was 2003 Kevin Garnett?
Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:15 pm by D Nice

kaima wrote:Using the Nash ORTG(!!!!!) standard that RealGM's regulars love with KG on D: he was pretty overrated, and remains so.

The RAPM arguments made for KG don't dovetail with team DRTG, yet the same adherents of these two systems, at least when convenient, only look at the former while ignoring the latter.

From my standpoint? I think KG's an outstanding player, particularly as an overall defender, but that he was always too passive on offensive and highly questionable as a team defensive lynchpin, either as a prototypical frontcourt player or as backcourt trapper (he, honestly, reminds me of a lesser Pippen as far as many defensive issues). His Point Forward abilities often became a weakness with deference on offense in close games rather than control and facilitation.

I'm not a fan of DRTG/ORTG as THE measure on either side of the ball, but for those who are it's certainly amusing to watch them ignore the elephant in the room while hyping KG as the best defensive player of his generation; frankly, the TWolves were typically mediocre to weak in defensive standards year by year with KG, as can be seen in play by play.

In summation, was KG a truly dominant offensive player? No, he wasn't. And the defense did not show up in a truly dominant or disruptive fashion against good to great opponents during his time with the Wolves.
So much truth in this post it might hurt.
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Post#16 Re: How good was 2003 Kevin Garnett?
Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:21 pm by WhateverBro

Pretty much as Good as in '04. Arguably the leagues best player, its between him and Duncan.

The fact that Garnett dragged that team to 50+ Wins and a 4-2 loss in the playoffs vs Lakers is remarkable. A team featuring Hudson, szczerbiak, nesterovic, kendal Gill and Anthony peeler shouldnt sniff 50 wins. Thats a core that should be in the running for worst record in the league.
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Post#17 Re: How good was 2003 Kevin Garnett?
Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:25 pm by NO-KG-AI

Remarkable. Very few 7'+ guys were that athletic, even less were that skilled, and almost none played with that kind of motor for the amount of minutes he played. He literally filled every role.
rrravenred wrote:Stick that in your superior advanced-calculus pipe, and smoke it, you stat-headed Garnett stan...
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Post#18 Re: How good was 2003 Kevin Garnett?
Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:28 pm by D Nice

WhateverBro wrote:Pretty much as Good as in '04. Arguably the leagues best player, its between him and Duncan.

The fact that Garnett dragged that team to 50+ Wins and a 4-2 loss in the playoffs vs Lakers is remarkable. A team featuring Hudson, szczerbiak, nesterovic, kendal Gill and Anthony peeler shouldnt sniff 50 wins. Thats a core that should be in the running for worst record in the league.
This, but the playoff wins had as much to do with Troy Hudson's getting lucky and Derek Fisher being one of the worst defenders ever as it did Garnett's 27/16/5, and no, it's not really arguable with Duncan, he was clearly better.
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Post#19 Re: How good was 2003 Kevin Garnett?
Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:01 pm by RayBan-Sematra

JordansBulls wrote:
RayBan-Sematra wrote:He was the 3rd best player in the league that year after Duncan & Shaq.


Duncan I agree with, but Shaq ahead of KG that year? Shaq had another top 5 player by his side that season and the Twolves still ended up with a better record. And it isn't like the Twolves had depth either.

Team record can be effected by many things.

Besides they basically had an identical record that year (1 game difference) and if you adjust the Lakers overall record to their winning % when Shaq was playing (he missed 15 games) then the Lakers would have had a significantly better record then the Wolves that year.

Shaq was 2nd in regular-season RAPM (only slightly behind KG)
Shaq led the entire league in regular-season and playoff PER in 2003.
Shaq was 2nd in regular-season WSP48 (ahead of Duncan and KG)
Shaq was 2nd in playoff WSP48 (behind only Duncan) (KG wasn't even Top 10)

Maybe just going by the regular season it would be debatable but Shaq was far better then KG in the playoffs and that clearly separates the two.

O'neal and Duncan were neck and neck for the #1 spot.

Not sure why people think Shaq's 2003 season wasn't amazing.
It was arguably the 3rd best year of his career if you ignore team success.
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Post#20 Re: How good was 2003 Kevin Garnett?
Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:18 pm by Ginobili

He was awesome, considering the talent he had around.

Like other have said, ive never seen a player that tall pass the ball so well and even have PG duties for decent portions of the game, it was unreal. Rebounding monster also, one of the best defensive rebounders ive ever seen.
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