What went wrong: Jazz from 88-95

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What went wrong: Jazz from 88-95 

Post#1 » by sp6r=underrated » Tue May 21, 2013 6:35 pm

I made this thread a few years ago so if the mods lock it I understand. I would like to know what happened to the Jazz from 88-95.

The general opinion of most people is that a team with one ATG (Top 25) will usually be pretty good unless the supporting cast is quite bad and management is incompetent to do anything about it. If you pair two players in this range with a good coach you should have a perpetual front-line contender that regularly turns in dominant RS performances. If the two players in question have games that are perfect fits for each other and never suffer injury than you should expect regular deep runs in the post-season.

The 88-95 Jazz had these ingredients but the results didn't come close to expectations.

First the facts:

I. Cumulative Regular-Season Performance

2nd Best RS WP%
4th Best RS SRS

II. Individual RS Performance

1 season that ranks in the top 25 for wins over these 8 years
1 season that ranks in the top 25 for SRS over these 8 years

III. Post-Season performance

Code: Select all

W   L      MOV  SRS of opponent
33  37   -.09   3.96


4 1st Round exits in 8 years.

The 88-95 Jazz were consistently good from 88-95 but almost never great. While they turned in one dominant RS in most years they were a secondary contender.

In the PS, their performance was quite average. In half the seasons they didn't even get out of the first round and never made it to the finals. Only twice did they reach the conference finals.

The accepted wisdom is that Stockton and Malone were both in their prime during these years and that the former was at his peak. They were never hurt during the RS or PS. Jerry Sloan is assumed to be a good coach. At various times they had impact players on the defensive and offensive end of the court.

__________________________________________________________________

So the question is what explains the Jazz overall level of performance from 88-95. What were they missing in the supporting cast that prevented them from achieving greatness instead of just being good? Is everyone as good as their reps?

I have no real issues with the Jazz performance from 96-98. Please bring up the 96-98 Jazz to explain what the issues were with the 88-95 Jazz but I am not interested in comments like "jordan" to explain the Jazz overall level of performance from 88-95.
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Re: What went wrong: Jazz from 88-95 

Post#2 » by ceiling raiser » Tue May 21, 2013 6:49 pm

Great thread idea. Just thought I'd throw the obligatory Mark Eaton mention out there on defense. He didn't guard very far out, but he was a brick wall on the inside in his heyday.
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Re: What went wrong: Jazz from 88-95 

Post#3 » by Dr Pepper » Tue May 21, 2013 6:51 pm

Feel free to disagree but imo regular season victories don't mean that much, the Jazz could have used better 2-way players on the perimeter and in the paint in that arguably golden era of bigs, and Jordan's Jordan:

1. Imo regular season victories are kind of easy and expected with a core like the Jazz organization led by Sloan + the energizer bunnies in Malone/Stockton. The records don't necessarily mean all that match for playoffs success because that's where talent and matchups can be too much of an uphill battle, and I'm not sure how we would rank the Western conference during 88-95 anyway.

2. No real athletic 2-way player on the perimeter that can be a shot creator/playmaker like a Kobe Bryant, Ginobili, Pippen, etc. Stockton/Malone is great but they could have used at least a fringe-star player that could make something-out-of-a-nothing possession. Having this kind of option would probably help Malone and Stockton's game improve in the playoffs too.

3. Better 2-way 7'0"+ center. Now I'm just typing out of my ass but IIRC the Jazz could have used a better 2-way big in that arguable golden era of bigs

4. I know the OP said to basically ignore this kind of stuff but there's too much shame in advancing to the Finals only to lose to MJ's Bulls, and some of those games were pretty damn close. Not having an additional fringe star 2-way big or perimeter player probably hurt in this matchup.
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Re: What went wrong: Jazz from 88-95 

Post#4 » by DreamShakeFTW » Tue May 21, 2013 7:36 pm

Jordan-Pippen/Bulls
Olajuwon/Rockets
Johnson-KAJ-Worthy/Lakers
Thomas-Dumars-Laimbeer-Rodman/Bad Boy Pistons
Payton-Kemp Sonics
Drexler/Blazers
Barkley-Johnson-Maherly/Suns
Miller-Smits/Pacers
Ewing/Knicks
Robinson-Elliot/Spurs
Etc...

That's what happened to the Jazz from 1988-1995
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Re: What went wrong: Jazz from 88-95 

Post#5 » by sp6r=underrated » Tue May 21, 2013 7:43 pm

Attached below is the type of intellectual laziness I want this thread to avoid

DreamShakeFTW wrote:Jordan-Pippen/Bulls
Thomas-Dumars-Laimbeer-Rodman/Bad Boy Pistons
Miller-Smits/Pacers
Ewing/Knicks
That's what happened to the Jazz from 1988-1995


With regards to the post-season, the Jazz never played Jordan's Bulls from 88-95. They never played the Bad Boys ever. They never played the Knicks. They never played the Pacers.

Please try to engage with the thread.
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Re: What went wrong: Jazz from 88-95 

Post#6 » by sp6r=underrated » Tue May 21, 2013 8:00 pm

Thank you for your analysis.

Dr Pepper wrote:Feel free to disagree but imo regular season victories don't mean that much, the Jazz could have used better 2-way players on the perimeter and in the paint in that arguably golden era of bigs, and Jordan's Jordan:

1. Imo regular season victories are kind of easy and expected with a core like the Jazz organization led by Sloan + the energizer bunnies in Malone/Stockton. The records don't necessarily mean all that match for playoffs success because that's where talent and matchups can be too much of an uphill battle, and I'm not sure how we would rank the Western conference during 88-95 anyway.

2. No real athletic 2-way player on the perimeter that can be a shot creator/playmaker like a Kobe Bryant, Ginobili, Pippen, etc. Stockton/Malone is great but they could have used at least a fringe-star player that could make something-out-of-a-nothing possession. Having this kind of option would probably help Malone and Stockton's game improve in the playoffs too.

3. Better 2-way 7'0"+ center. Now I'm just typing out of my ass but IIRC the Jazz could have used a better 2-way big in that arguable golden era of bigs

4. I know the OP said to basically ignore this kind of stuff but there's too much shame in advancing to the Finals only to lose to MJ's Bulls, and some of those games were pretty damn close. Not having an additional fringe star 2-way big or perimeter player probably hurt in this matchup.


I do disagree that RS play doesn't matter for several reasons. First, the RS is a much a larger sample size and shouldn't be dismissed when evaluating teams. Second, most teams take the RS very seriously because it controls playoff seeding. The difference between having to play 4 great teams or only 2 is huge.

Regular under-performance in the RS usually indicates a team isn't as good as you think they are. Valid reasons for not weighing heavily RS performance include (i) freak injuries, (ii) the team reguarly over-performs in the PS which indicates RS coasting. Malone and Stockton never got hurt so injuries aren't a large factor. The coasting theory is very questionable because both Malone and Stockton were the type of guys who always went all out and their performance in the PS generally got worse.

I agree the Jazz didn't have a two-way big men or a true dominant wing but do you really need that much level of talent to be a true contender.

Finally, I agree that the Jazz performed very well from 96-98. Losing to the 96 Sonics and 97/98 Bulls is nothing to be ashamed of. But their high level of performance doesn't make the period of 88-95 disappear. An eight year period isn't cherry picking. This is a large sample size were their performance was significantly below what you would expect based on having a 1-2 punch like Malone Stockton.
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Re: What went wrong: Jazz from 88-95 

Post#7 » by FJS » Tue May 21, 2013 9:27 pm

In 88 they took 7 games to LAL, in 92 and 94 they played WCF.
They had bad losses vs GSW in 89, but hey, there's a lot of teams with upsets, like Sonics in 94, LAL in 90, or SA in 11, Mavs in 07 or OKC in 13.

They had not great benches. Sure they had Thrul Bailey, but Sloan use to balance their team. He had starting terrible players like Bob Hansen or Marc Iavaroni. Eaton was aging when S&M were peaking. And altough he was a really great defensive center, he was a non factor in offense. He struggle to reach 50% FG being a player who only should shot very near the basket.

Jeff Malone was a great catch and shoot player.... but he was only it. And he had not 3pt range. When Hornacek arrived Jazz was much better team, due to he had the ability to shoot 3pt and being another distributor. Malone improved by that time his ability to pass the ball. Jazz were in 94 in WCF, and in 95 they were near to beat rockets, who were the champs.

So if you ask me what was wrong, it was lack of a deeper bench and quality starters.

You watch Sonics from beggining of 90, Suns, Blazers, Lakers of 88-91 and all were pretty deep with 3-4 of 5 quality players. Jazz never got it. It's more, they had some of the worst players of the league.
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Re: What went wrong: Jazz from 88-95 

Post#8 » by Warspite » Tue May 21, 2013 10:00 pm

Never had a 2nd option on offense.

They had the most predictable offense of all time. They only ran 5 plays.


Sloan was never willing to bring in an athletic wing player who could create because he was too inflexible to allow that kind of player.

The Jazz ran a obsolete system that was very easy to guard in a 7 game series. The Jazz however ran that system about as well as can be run.
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Re: What went wrong: Jazz from 88-95 

Post#9 » by Nbafanatic » Tue May 21, 2013 10:29 pm

Let''s try to breakdown this by the years:

88: they lose to the showtime lakers in a home dominated kind of series in 7. Nothing to be ashamed of.

89: Jerry Sloan takes over at the beggining of the season, and the team decreases it's possessions by three, and this change would continue on and on throughout the next upcoming years, becoming a more controlled, half court kind of team. They are upset by the run and gun Warriors, in a very bad matchup to them. anyway, I consider this series to be the first big fault on Stockton-Malone's resume.

90: Their record is even better than last year, but they lose again in the first round to an even opponent in the Suns this time, but holding home court advantage. Chambers plays Malone to a wash in game five and Kevin Johnson dominates Stockton. We all Know that Stockton should be one of the great system players of all time, but he was outplayed too many times by his counterparts in the playoffs, he just couldn't put his will on the game. This series was a prime example of that.

91 and 92: They brought in Jeff Malone, fixing to a certain extent a hole on the team, their outside shooting. The 92 team to me, is the best Jazz squad outside of 97 and 98, but they lose to the blazers that, again, has the point guard advantage as Porter dominates Stockton scoring-wise, and their absence of a dominant wing hurts them even more, they have nobody to matchup well with Drexler. The Jazz simply couldn't contain the strong coming out of pin-downs guard attack of the Blazers.

93: They lose in the first round to a superior West Conference final bound Sonics team. A normal loss, I think.

94 and 95: they added Hornacek, providing further ouside shooting and playmaking ability to the team, setting he foundation of the great 97 team chemistry-wise. But they have no answer to Olajuwon and Drexler really dominates again in the 95 series.

Overall, I think they were not good enough in this period to coming out of the west. I would blame a little the system a bit too predictable at times, relying a lot on Stockton on the left side waiting for a screen ouside the ball and therefore setting up everything else. There were games that the team would use the same play time and time again. I think the superior spacing of the mid to late 90's was good for the team as well, especially to Karl Malone.
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Re: What went wrong: Jazz from 88-95 

Post#10 » by Nbafanatic » Tue May 21, 2013 10:32 pm

Warspite wrote:Never had a 2nd option on offense.

They had the most predictable offense of all time. They only ran 5 plays.


Sloan was never willing to bring in an athletic wing player who could create because he was too inflexible to allow that kind of player.

The Jazz ran a obsolete system that was very easy to guard in a 7 game series. The Jazz however ran that system about as well as can be run.



Very well said. I think this post really sums up the question very well.
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Re: What went wrong: Jazz from 88-95 

Post#11 » by Winglish » Tue May 21, 2013 10:37 pm

The Jazz got really good after the trade for Jeff Hornacek. They were not a contender until that point. Utah needed a decent wing player and it's that simple, IMO. Had Clyde the Glide gone to Utah instead of Houston...Well, that would have been some bad medicine.
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Re: What went wrong: Jazz from 88-95 

Post#12 » by DreamShakeFTW » Tue May 21, 2013 10:53 pm

sp6r=underrated wrote:Attached below is the type of intellectual laziness I want this thread to avoid

DreamShakeFTW wrote:Jordan-Pippen/Bulls
Thomas-Dumars-Laimbeer-Rodman/Bad Boy Pistons
Miller-Smits/Pacers
Ewing/Knicks
That's what happened to the Jazz from 1988-1995


With regards to the post-season, the Jazz never played Jordan's Bulls from 88-95. They never played the Bad Boys ever. They never played the Knicks. They never played the Pacers.

Please try to engage with the thread.


Let me break out the crayons and draw you a picture. The Jazz had talent in that era but EVERYBODY had talent in that era. Please try to engage some reading comprehension.
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Re: What went wrong: Jazz from 88-95 

Post#13 » by Double Clutch » Tue May 21, 2013 10:58 pm

WARNING: Long read

Here's an year by year analysis of what I remember of the Jazz playoff performance during those years (excluding 1988 and 1989 as I wasn't watching then). Bear in mind, I'm relying quite a bit on memory and memories, at times, have a strong tendency to play mind games with you....

1990 - I remember PHX just being a more talented, deeper squad overall and really hurting Utah in transition. I thought KJ played great (even though he played with the flu) and outplayed Stockton, Eddie Johnson who was the notorious Jazz killer had a solid series and came up big especially in final two games and Chambers, while struggling for the vast majority of the series came up huge in the 4th quarter of the deciding game 5. I thought Malone had an OK series, some good defense played against Chambers especially in game 4 where his swipe was able to force a number of turnovers against him. I also thought Malone deserved quite a bit of flack for game 5 though. I wouldn't necessarily say he choked though his FT shooting was below average (shot 6/12) but he did make a few errors such as the fact that he picked up a silly reach in on Chambers in the 3rd (got in foul trouble as a result) which forced somebody else to guard Tom in the 4th and Chambers was able to feast on the line and scored 11 or 12 points (might've been consecutive). Offensively, his play was a bit suspect in the 4th as he bailed the defense out by settling for turnaround jumpers. He tried to post up deep with Majerle guarding him but the double team came really quick and he wasn't able to draw the foul and I remember thinking he seemed confused and thus quickly forced a few jumpers. Mark West did guard him on a couple of possessions too and had some success negating the deep position Malone was getting and was able to bother his shot. I think he only had 2 points in the 4th off a pick and pop with Stockton which tied the game until KJ hit the GW. He did create a few indirect opportunities for the rest of the team which was usually the case on the early 90s Jazz as the teams would try to pack the lane, double team Malone and guys like Edwards and Bailey could benefit off of them. In general, Malone was As for their support, I think it was solid but PHX definitely had the edge in this regard despite their duo of KJ and Chambers not being as good overall. That said, it was a winnable series despite PHX being a better team in general.

1991 - They once again fall to a more talented, deeper squad in Portland who many believe was actually better than the 1990 and 1992 teams that made the finals. I don't have any game by game memory of this series but I've looked at the game reports and glanced over the stats, it seems that their talent, balance and depth was able to overcome Utah. Another thing that also stands out is Drexler's all around numbers which are tremendous (19.8 ppg/10 rpg/9.6 apg) which tells me he was really able to get some easy buckets on the offensive glass which he was notorious for and also ignite the break with his defensive rebounding and get Portland's transition game going, something else he generally excelled at. Portland had shooters and elite athletes + finishers so they were an absolute KILLER team in the open court. I notice Porter had a good scoring series (his 1992 series is even better) so that's an indication that he was able to spot up in transition, benefit from the fact that Stockton could get burned from roaming, use his size to shoot over and create against the smaller Stockton as well as come off screens to catch and shoot. I say this because these were all factors in the 1992 series which I'm very familiar with. Mark Eaton's mobility was also a bit suspect at this point so he couldn't be the intimidating presence as he was in the past and combined with Kevin Duckworth's ability to spread the floor up to 15 feet or so, that could pull Eaton away from the basket and weaken Utah's interior defense as well as open up room for dribble penetration.

I will also say as a general standpoint that Utah had some issues on offense in the playoffs in the early 90s due to the lack of spacing and 3 pt threats on the team. This is why I consider Jeff Hornacek a really valuable and immense upgrade over Jeff Malone who had a great mid range game but wasn't able to alleviate teams from packing the lane against Utah. Hornacek was also a superior passer and a playmaker. The Jazz bench during the early 90s was fairly mediocre especially in contrast to the teams they lost lost to (PHX, Portland, Seattle) so we have to keep that mind as well. Portland had talent such as Danny Ainge (tough, hard nosed, good shooter, experienced) and Cliff Robinson (athletic, talented, versatile) coming off the bench, PHX had Eddie Johnson (elite shooter, crafty scorer for scoring punches) and Dan Majerle (good shooter, solid perimeter defender), Seattle had Eddie Johnson (see above), Nate McMillan (great perimeter defender, good passer, made smart plays, leader), Michael Cage (banger, could provide good minutes against opposing bigs), Dana Barros (another perimeter shooter) while Utah's bench players really paled in comparison despite the fact that rotations are usually shortened come playoff time so this was also a factor.

1992 - Some of this I touched on earlier. First of all, let me say, I was really impressed by Karl Malone's playoff run in general especially the Seattle and Portland series. In game one vs Seattle, he had 16 of his 30 in the 4th and they mentioned Utah brought him up high and he made great decisions from there. To close Seattle, he had 15 of his 37 in the 4th and Eaton fed off the attention he drew late in the quarter. He also played some good positional defense on Shawn Kemp who hadn't learned to protect the ball from Malone's swipe just yet and Malone was also able to limit his shot attempts though Kemp was in foul trouble as well which limited his minutes. While I'd say early 90s Malone was more reliant on being set up (after they beat Seattle, George Karl actually gave a lot of credit to Stockton for getting the ball to Malone at great angles), Stockton did get an eye injury at the half in game 5 @ Portland and Malone would actually have a monster second half scoring 28 points. Throughout the Portland series, he was posting up deep on Buck Williams, drawing a lot of fouls, putting the ball on the floor, setting up on the left block and rolling across the lane for a little hook. His jumper did not have quite the same range and he also didn't go to it as much but he was still effective on the face up and turnaround and his passing was getting better though not on the level as it was in mid-late 90s. I do think Malone put far more pressure (more aggressive, set up deeper on the block) on the defense in the early 90s than the late 90s where had a tendency to settle more often which I'd say did help extend his career a bit.

The only relatively weak game Malone had in this series was game 1 which was a blowout so it's hard to pin this loss on him and while game 6 vs Portland doesn't stand out, they were really concerned with him, doubling him hard and made guys like Tyrone Corbin and Edwards beat them. Ty had a good game but the Jazz offense stunk in the second half since they were able to limit Malone and Stockton was terrible from the perimeter (eye injury played a part perhaps). Utah had no spacing and perimeter shooting whatsoever to keep the Portland defense honest. That's an issue with guys like Jeff Malone as I mentioned earlier, Tyrone Corbin (solid defense and rebounding though), David Benoit (not a 3 pt shooter but ran the floor well as he was athletic) and Blue Edwards (not much 3 pt range, not much of a shot creator but athletic and did well in the open court but Utah wasn't the type that liked pushing the ball a lot so this attribute was minimized). This, of course, is just their offensive woes. Portland is still the same type of team as they were in 1991 (very athletic, talented, deep, flourished in transition) and they were able to capitalize on these attributes. Terry Porter's play in this series was exceptional and I'd say he was the best Blazer in this series. His shooting was terrific (spotting up in transition, coming off screens, pulling up off the dribble, driving on Stockton using his body to create space ect) and I thought defensively, he did a solid job too though I remember one of the pre-game shows where Steve Jones talked about how he should pressure Stockton on the entry pass more often to deny getting the ball to Malone. Drexler had a good series, Duckworth played really well in 3 of the 4 Portland wins and if you watch the series, you'll notice how he was able to draw Eaton away from the basket due to his shooting ability (nice one hand shooting stroke). I'd also say the fact that Eaton's mobility was questionable at this point could hurt Utah's transition defense especially against a team that thrived in the open court like Portland. Portland also got really solid contribution from Jerome Kersey and some bench production from Ainge and Robinson.

1993 - This was the season coming off the Dream Team and it should be noted that Malone and Stockton did wear out especially over the course of the season. This is something Sloan talked about and Malone himself said it was a factor. Seattle was really good at pressuring the ball, trapping guards (known for their SOS pressure defense) as well as double teaming low-post players and quickly rotating back to the shooters. This is something very evident in this series and was able to impact Utah's offense quite a bit. They'd often pressure and double team Stockton forcing him to give the ball up and what this would do is also limit Malone's touches since Stockton was so good at getting the ball to him. Malone, once he would receive the ball, would get swarmed and as I said earlier, Utah's perimeter shooting wouldn't be able to keep the defense honest so this gave even more incentive to Seattle to pack the lane in this series. Malone didn't particularly play well (perhaps fatigue was a factor) and Stockton had a relatively average series for his standards but when you factor in Seattle's defensive strategy and the fact that they both did well moving the ball around creating for their teammates, I thought they did their job. Malone did struggle against Seattle's double teams a bit especially passing out of the low-post as he hadn't quite developed into a great passer yet (would happen in a couple of years) so Seattle was able to force some turnovers. I'd say Kemp was also improving in this time period and was able to hold his own vs Malone especially the first one where he actually outplayed him. Although, Malone did bounce back right after in game 2 especially in the 4th quarter where he was playing with 5 fouls yet had 12 of his 26 points including the GW jumper. Seattle made a mistake in this game by not going to Kemp in the 4th to try and foul Malone out although the report did state Kemp was being double teamed with Eaton and it wasn't the best decision to force the action in that situation. Utah was also rotating Malone at times depending on which Seattle front-court player had it going offensively so Malone was matched up with Kemp, Perkins and McKey at times.

I thought Karl outcoached Sloan in this series with the type of adjustments he made although he also had more depth as well as a greater variety of players with differentiating skill-sets to take more risks and switch schemes and strategies. For example, down 2-1 heading into game 4, Karl made Derrick McKey the point-forward to stop Stockton from roaming around on defense. In this game, Eddie Johnson also stepped up big in the 4th quarter once again being a pain in Utah's rear scoring 13 of his 24 pts. They also didn't trap Malone and Stockton as much as they did in the first three games which worked fine as Malone had a subpar game and Stockton didn't have a great game either and as a result they were able to limit Utah's offense. Another adjustment Seattle did in this series was to limit Eaton's defensive impact which was evident in the pivotal game 5. In the two Utah wins, Eaton was able to clog the middle and prevent any easy baskets around the rim but in game 5, especially in the third quarter, Sam Perkins (a center to stretch the floor) made a number of threes because Eaton either couldn't guard him outside or he was helping out and got burned for it. This was the turning point of that game as that really got that Seattle crowd going, the team's energy really picked up after a terrible first half and they had momentum on their side which won them the game. You'll notice the perimeter play of the Jazz was again suspect as they didn't shoot well to alleviate the pressure off of Malone and Stockton. Jeff Malone, Jay Humphries, David Benoit and Tyrone Corbin were again guilty of this, perhaps Sloan as well.

1994 - I thought the Jazz really improved this year due to the addition of Jeff Hornacek giving them a great 3 pt shooter, a playmaker and somebody who could actually space the floor effectively (difference between spacing and shooting), the addition of Tom Chambers, Felton Spencer gave them a good defensive center to guard some of the bigger bodies in the West like David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwon and I'd say Malone improved as well because he was gradually getting better built for playoff play. His stats decline but I'd take Karl Malone in 1994 over Karl Malone in 1990 which is something stats won't necessarily show. It was sort of a transition year for Malone as he expanded his game by adding more range on his jumper to extend his game further and becoming a better passer out of the low-post especially on those over the shoulder feeds to cutters and these are two aspects of the game that I think helped him deal better with superior playoff defenses. This is important when you consider he's playing in a conference with great defensive bigs like Robinson, Dikembe and Hakeem since they'd bother his inside game and playing outside, he could negate their presence or forcing them to guard him and come outside limiting their defensive impact thus helping the rest of the team.

In the first round of the playoffs, he took it to the Rodman/Robinson front-line and completely shut Robinson down. His swipe bother Robinson anytime he faced up, he made Robinson pass up shots and look tentative by really playing a physical brand of basketball. Stockton played some good help-defense as well, to his credit. In game 4, Malone hit a go-ahead jumpshot with about 40 seconds left to close the Spurs out.

Against Denver, he didn't post as much because Dikembe was a huge presence in the lane and Mutombo guarded him for a good chunk of the series too but his perimeter game was on point and this would also pull Dikembe out of the lane opening up the middle for the rest of his teammates thus limiting Mutombo's defensive impact to some extent. Bear in mind, Mutombo had an excellent defensive series against Seattle in the first round and did a great job limiting Kemp's production. He saved Utah the embarrassment by not losing game 7 after losing a 3-0 lead with a huge first half, most of his points essentially coming on jumpshots. In game three, Denver was so concerned with Malone on the pick and roll, that they were allowing Stock and Hornacek good looks and they did convert them but Sloan afterwards said, "that was good to see because Stock doesn't usually take those shots" which is a sign that Stockton wasn't usually as aggressive in looking for his shot as he should be (paraphrased). That said, he did have a questionable first half in game 5 of this series though he bounced back really well in the second half. Larry Miller (owner of the Jazz) had called him out and requested Sloan to take him out of the game due to a lack of effort. He was missing some easy shots, seemed hesitant in terms of his decision making and was also bothered a bit by Mutombo's presence. Perhaps, it might've been a "statement" game because there was definitely talk about Malone's future around this time, the relative lack of help and their championship window closing.

Against Houston, they were on the road in the first game and came out flat perhaps due to a grueling 7 game series. Doug Collins was the color guy for this game and he also talked about how fatigue was a factor here. Hakeem had a tremendous all-around series (not surprising as he was far and away the best in the league that year) and Utah's defense was also really concerned with him which opened up 3 pt shooting for the rest of the team especially Kenny Smith. Malone did ok when you consider he's going up against a great defensive frontline in Thorpe/Hakeem and Malone also had food poisoning which definitely effected him after game two. Hakeem also switched onto Malone at times when Thorpe was in foul trouble and really bothered him (game 4). This is another series where I think Stockton should have been more aggressive and taken advantage of Houston's awful PG defense (something he'd finally do in 1997). I've never seen a championship winning team with a worse defensive PG rotation as those back-to-back Rocket teams. Houston couldn't guard PGs to save their lives and that was a glaring weakness on that squad. Look up some of the stats of the opposing PGs against the Rockets in the playoffs. The Suns had KJ nearly single handily beat Houston in some of those games because he was easily able to get to the middle and cause defensive breakdowns. Rod Strickland had the series of his career against the 1994 Rockets as he, like KJ, was really able to get to the middle and cause defensive breakdowns as the Rockets' PGs offered little to no resistance. Penny Hardaway didn't assert himself as much as he should've in the 1995 finals but he was able to have his way with Sam and Kenny whenever he wanted to. Payton would have some big games against Houston too (good penetrator and post-up threat), to the point where they'd have to switch Mario Elie or Clyde Drexler onto him like they did in the 1996 WCSF. You could criticize Stockton for his unwillingness to exploit this match up, the lack of scoring punch from Utah's bench such as Corbin and Chambers or a starter like David Benoit who could be double teamed off of since he had no shooting range. So while I did comment on Utah's improvement this year, they still had some weaknesses as a team that were noticeable in this series. You also have to consider how Hakeem was wrecking havoc all over the place and there wasn't much they could do against him even when they figured to slow him down a bit offensive production in the last three games because he was still drawing a lot of attention and Houston had a variety of people step up on a game by game basis to make Utah pay for that strategy.

1995 - Utah should've probably beat Houston this year. They had a 60 W team + home court but the series came down to Hakeem being flat-out unstoppable, outplaying Malone as the primary option and Drexler outplayed Stockton in the secondary role. I think the stars decided that series and Houston's stars shined a bit brighter. Both teams had weaknesses they could exploit in the other team. Utah lacked an adequate C to guard Hakeem with Spencer going down and Drexler was a mismatch for their guards on the block and played magnificent in the open court as usual. On the other hand, Houston had no PF either after Thorpe got traded and their back up PF Herrera got injured late in the season and he perhaps could've done a better defensive job on Malone than Chilcutt and Brown did or at least given them big to use up fouls with. PnR defense and especially PG defense, like I mentioned earlier, was a weakness for the Rockets this year which would be magnified going up against Stockton.

The 4th quarter of game 5 in this series is pretty telling. Malone had 9 pts and 3 rebounds including a desperation 3 in Hakeem's grill. Stockton had 1 pt, 0 assists and 4 missed shots. Hakeem had 12 pts, 5 rebounds (made a insane turnaround shot off the edge of the glass and dunked on the entire state of Utah on a lob pass) but Hakeem also had Drexler scoring 8 points, grabbing 3 boards and dishing out 2 assists as well. Hakeem was the best player on the floor but he also had more help with Drexler actually proving to be a great secondary threat. Stockton did not do this for the Jazz. I did think some of that is due to Utah's strategy (memory may be off) because Utah got off to a 7 pt lead midway in the 4th and IIRC, they tried running the clock down on a couple of possessions and feeding it to Karl which backfired against them because they were unable to score. I remember Utah running plays for Malone in the low-post quite a bit but Horry would drop-down for a quick double team from the weakside, Malone would feed Benoit and he'd clank the open jumpshot. I do think Malone could've been more assertive against the double teams and this is partly an issue in his skill-set since he couldn't really evade or split double teams and was a relatively limited iso scorer once you took his face up or turnaround jumper away but in theory, he's making the right play since he's drawing the double team and finding the opening in the defense.

Stockton had a a couple of great games, especially game one where I'd say Utah was able to control the tempo and he was the primary reason they won. He also had the GW lay-up as he was able to use Malone's pick to get to the lane since Hakeem laid back and sort of shaded Stockton's drive and Stockton was able to finish over a myriad of defenders challenging his shot. The main thing is he was aggressive and attacked the defense, got to the middle and made things happen. If Stockton played with a more assertive mindset the entire series like he did game one (Houston's PG defense was bad and their PnR wasn't anything special), I think they could've won. Of course, you have David Benoit's play in game 5 that can be attributed to the loss as well since he couldn't make Houston pay for double teaming Malone. I thought the rest of the team did fine and like I said, you have to account for the opposition as well since Hakeem and Drexler were unstoppable this series.
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Re: What went wrong: Jazz from 88-95 

Post#14 » by sp6r=underrated » Tue May 21, 2013 11:34 pm

NugzHeat3,

Thank you so much for your analysis.
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Re: What went wrong: Jazz from 88-95 

Post#15 » by therealbig3 » Wed May 22, 2013 12:42 am

I lean towards Stockton and Sloan being overrated as a possible explanation. I used to think the same of Malone, but ElGee has done a fantastic job of defending Malone and I've changed my mind about him. I don't rank him quite as high as ElGee (I have him at #15 all time, ElGee probably has him a little higher), but I think he was every bit as good as he was billed, especially when you look at his insane longevity and durability.

Stockton OTOH, as others have pointed out, was routinely getting outplayed by opposing PGs that he was generally considered better than. And I think when you have talent like the Jazz had, and you're constantly losing to teams with similar talent or even worse talent (on paper, anyway), some of the blame has to go on the coach.
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Re: What went wrong: Jazz from 88-95 

Post#16 » by lorak » Wed May 22, 2013 3:58 am

therealbig3 wrote:Stockton OTOH, as others have pointed out, was routinely getting outplayed by opposing PGs


Routinely?! For god sake, Stockton outplayed peak Magic (of course they didn't guard each other), or at least played as good as Johnson in that series. (Really, how many PG played as good as peak Magic?). Once was outplayed by KJ, but on next occasion he outplayed Kevin. And so on. No to mention basketball isn't 1on1 game and looking at this only that way ("X outplayed Y in h2h matchup) is silly.

The truth is:
- Malone is overrated, he failed many times, because his style of play wasn't suited well for playoffs (jump shooting big man, weak post up game) and that's why he became so unefficent player in post season. And Jazz relied heavily on him, so no wonder they lost, when he wasn't able to deliver on normal rate.

- Jazz supporting cast was really weak. Even Eaton (no doubt he was all time great defender) wasn't helping much., because what he gained on defense, he lost on offense (and vs some teams he was almost useless even on D, for example vs GSW).

- Sloan made Jazz offensive system too predictable, in some way he cut down Stockton. It's not coincidence Stockton's was so good in 1988 playoffs - last Lyaden's postseason in Utah.
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Re: What went wrong: Jazz from 88-95 

Post#17 » by therealbig3 » Wed May 22, 2013 4:43 am

Ok, the Jazz relied so heavily on Malone...why? Why didn't Stockton help lessen the load?

The reality is, he was often very passive and didn't provide the support a legitimate #2 should have. Of course he had series here and there when he exploded and scored a bunch of points and played aggressively, but he was passive far more often.

Oh, and btw, you accuse Malone of dropping off in the playoffs (59.2% TS to 55.2% TS, 115 ORating to 112 ORating)...what about Stockton, who wasn't facing the brunt of the defense? He went from 61.3% TS to 56.5% TS, 122 ORating to 117 ORating. Stockton's efficiency dropped off MORE than Malone's did, and again, he was the 2nd option while Malone was facing the brunt of the defense (the Jazz depended on him a lot, as you pointed out).

And Stockton's per 36 scoring also goes down in the playoffs during this time, which means overall, he wasn't playing more aggressively and helping Malone carry the scoring load.

It seems that Stockton disappointed in the playoffs just as much as Malone, if not more.

And I'll come clean and say yes, I am basing my analysis off the box score and also off what I've read about Stockton in the projects and on the posts in this thread, as I did not watch the Jazz in the playoffs during this time.
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Re: What went wrong: Jazz from 88-95 

Post#18 » by lorak » Wed May 22, 2013 4:55 am

therealbig3 wrote:Ok, the Jazz relied so heavily on Malone...why? Why didn't Stockton help lessen the load?


Because of Sloan and his too structured and too predictable offense! Sloan was control freak and that's why their offense looked that way (and why Stockton was doing what he was doing. Under Layden he proved that in "free" system he plays as good as any PG in history. Even Magic wasn't better than John in that series.)



It seems that Stockton disappointed in the playoffs just as much as Malone, if not more.


Maybe if you are looking only on scoring, but the thing is: scoring wasn't Stockton's main job. But it was Malone's main job, so even if both of them dropped similarly in terms of scoring it's still bigger issue with Malone because scoring was his biggest strength.
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Re: What went wrong: Jazz from 88-95 

Post#19 » by lorak » Wed May 22, 2013 4:59 am

And BTW,

therealbig3 wrote:what about Stockton, who wasn't facing the brunt of the defense?


How do you know this when you admitted that:

I did not watch the Jazz in the playoffs during this time.


?
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Re: What went wrong: Jazz from 88-95 

Post#20 » by therealbig3 » Wed May 22, 2013 5:10 am

DavidStern wrote:And BTW,

therealbig3 wrote:what about Stockton, who wasn't facing the brunt of the defense?


How do you know this when you admitted that:

I did not watch the Jazz in the playoffs during this time.


?


Well because I know that Malone was their best player and that all discussion I've ever seen of those Jazz teams talk about how Malone was heavily relied on, which is something you even pointed out. And as I've mentioned before, ElGee has made very convincing pro-Malone arguments and has pointed out numerous times how it's difficult to score efficiently when you're the #1 option and the focus of the defense without much scoring help, and has used Malone specifically as an example of that.

I'm not oblivious of those Jazz teams and their general makeup, and I have watched SOME games (not as much as I would like), but for the most part, no, I didn't watch them really.

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