James Worthy vs. Manu Ginobili

BattleTested · Post #1 » by **BattleTested** » Sat May 25, 2013 8:16 am

1. Who would you rather have as your #1 option?
2. Who would you rather have as your #2 or #3 option?
3. Who had a better career (including college and international play)?
4. Who would you rather have on the court in a Game 7?

ardee · Post #2 » by **ardee** » Sat May 25, 2013 9:59 am

1. Worthy, because he can stay on the court for a longer period of time, which we've never seen from Manu except for a few isolated stretches.

2. Worthy, for a no. 2, Manu for a no. 3 though. Worthy really spent the meat of his prime as Magic's second banana, never seen how he'd do if he didn't get enough of the ball to create off the dribble as much as he did, Manu has had a nice niche behind Duncan and Parker for years now, and I'm not sure if he'd be capable of taking on a bigger role.

3. Worthy and I don't need to think much about it... Manu has had only 4ish really elite seasons ('05, '07, '08 and '11) and he's been decent or injured in others. Worthy was consistently arguably the second best SF in the league for years on end. I think Manu DID peak higher in '08 but his injuries really hamper him.

4. Worthy again, not close. He's Big Game James for a reason.

The Infamous1 · Post #3 » by **The Infamous1** » Sat May 25, 2013 4:38 pm

Big Game James for all

Post #4 » by **Texas Chuck** » Sat May 25, 2013 5:02 pm

Id take Manu for 1 and maybe 4. People are vastly underestimating how much Magic in particular but also Kareem's presence made things so much easier for Worthy. Worthy feel apart immediately upon Magic's retirement. Way more than Nash "made' Amare or Marion, Magic "made' Worthy. I dont see that he has the skillset to be the focal point of an offense in the way Manu does.

Worthy is a great supporting option and he has the edge in career because of Manu's inability to play big minutes every year.

john248 · Post #5 » by **john248** » Sat May 25, 2013 6:29 pm

1. Manu
2. tie
3. Worthy
4. Worthy

DEEP3CL · Post #6 » by **DEEP3CL** » Sat May 25, 2013 8:38 pm

ardee wrote:1. Worthy, because he can stay on the court for a longer period of time, which we've never seen from Manu except for a few isolated stretches.

2. Worthy, for a no. 2, Manu for a no. 3 though. Worthy really spent the meat of his prime as Magic's second banana, never seen how he'd do if he didn't get enough of the ball to create off the dribble as much as he did, Manu has had a nice niche behind Duncan and Parker for years now, and I'm not sure if he'd be capable of taking on a bigger role.

3. Worthy and I don't need to think much about it... Manu has had only 4ish really elite seasons ('05, '07, '08 and '11) and he's been decent or injured in others. Worthy was consistently arguably the second best SF in the league for years on end. I think Manu DID peak higher in '08 but his injuries really hamper him.

4. Worthy again, not close. He's Big Game James for a reason.

Well said, so I'll just gravy train your post.

Johnny Firpo · Post #7 » by **Johnny Firpo** » Sat May 25, 2013 8:59 pm

I might go with Ginobili for all 4 criteria. Nr. 3 is a Manu in a landslide. Now, about nr. 1 question. To me, there is no question, Ginobili is the better, more impactful player when healthy. I don't actually think it's that close. I mean closish, but his advanced stats are simply blowing Worthy's out of the water. Now of course, the argentine was never an iron man. If i want to win a championship in one season, i'll take him easily, but if i have to build a franchise around them, i'll take Worthy.

Nr. 2 question, again, Ginobili is the better player, and probably a better complimentary player as well. He can also play the PG quite effectively (heck, he is a huge PG originally), so again, why not go with him? Nr. 3, no question, nr.4... Well, isn't Manu statistically one of the most clutch player of all-time? I think i remember some data about that. If i think about game 7, 4th quarter, i'm not sure i'd choose many players to have the ball in his hands instead of Manu. MJ obviously, maybe Dirk just to get a quality shot off every time, or probably Wade, but i know i would choose Ginobili instead of Bryant, Lebron, and well, Worthy.

Vinsanity420 · Post #8 » by **Vinsanity420** » Sat May 25, 2013 9:10 pm

Manu is legitimately a 6th man superstar. Thing is... I can't have my #1 option play sub 30 minutes, so he's out of consideration in #1. I would take a risk for #2 and go with Ginobilli as my 2nd or 3rd best player. He's just better than Worthy in a limited minute comparison, no question. On court, Game 7, I take Manu as well... so maybe all options outside of #1.

This is a durability question. That's the only reason I am really considering Worthy over him at the moment. Manu's legitimately awesome.

BattleTested · Post #9 » by **BattleTested** » Sat May 25, 2013 9:39 pm

Johnny Firpo wrote:I might go with Ginobili for all 4 criteria. Nr. 3 is a Manu in a landslide. Now, about nr. 1 question. To me, there is no question, Ginobili is the better, more impactful player when healthy. I don't actually think it's that close. I mean closish, but his advanced stats are simply blowing Worthy's out of the water. Now of course, the argentine was never an iron man. If i want to win a championship in one season, i'll take him easily, but if i have to build a franchise around them, i'll take Worthy.

Nr. 2 question, again, Ginobili is the better player, and probably a better complimentary player as well. He can also play the PG quite effectively (heck, he is a huge PG originally), so again, why not go with him? Nr. 3, no question, nr.4... Well, isn't Manu statistically one of the most clutch player of all-time? I think i remember some data about that. If i think about game 7, 4th quarter, i'm not sure i'd choose many players to have the ball in his hands instead of Manu. MJ obviously, maybe Dirk just to get a quality shot off every time, or probably Wade, but i know i would choose Ginobili instead of Bryant, Lebron, and well, Worthy.

I'm pretty high on Ginobili but that seems pretty ridiculous.

Johnny Firpo · Post #10 » by **Johnny Firpo** » Sat May 25, 2013 10:05 pm

Why? Ginobili is as clutch as they come, and probably more of a triple threat in crunch time than any of those 2. I'm not saying he is a superior player, he is not, but for the last couple of possessions, i'd probably take him. OP said game 7 though, so yeah, i would go with Lebron for a full game. Anyway, that's a little off topic. Nr. 3 is easily Ginobili by the way. I don't even think it should be a debate. The guy is an olympic champion, and olympic MVP, World Champion, WC MVP, Euroleage winner, Euroleague MVP, and well, yeah, 4 time NBA champion. It should not be a debate by OP's criteria.

JordansBulls · Post #11 » by **JordansBulls** » Sat May 25, 2013 10:06 pm

Worthy was just a more impactful player overall than Manu. It is also why he starts in games over Manu.

BattleTested · Post #12 » by **BattleTested** » Sat May 25, 2013 10:15 pm

Johnny Firpo wrote:Why? Ginobili is as clutch as they come, and probably more of a triple threat in crunch time than any of those 2. I'm not saying he is a superior player, he is not, but for the last couple of possessions, i'd probably take him. OP said game 7 though, so yeah, i would go with Lebron for a full game. Anyway, that's a little off topic. Nr. 3 is easily Ginobili by the way. I don't even think it should be a debate. The guy is an olympic champion, and olympic MVP, World Champion, WC MVP, Euroleage winner, Euroleague MVP, and well, yeah, 4 time NBA champion. It should not be a debate by OP's criteria.

Worthy was a 3x champion, a College Player of the year and Tournament's Most Outstanding Player in a year where his team won the national championship (he had 28 points on 13/17 shooting in the title game.) He was also a Finals MVP and had one of the best Game 7 performances ever (36/16/10.)

It's definitely a debate. That's why I said to add in international and college accolades. Euroleague doesn't mean much but that olympic gold is a really, really big deal considering his team had to beat the Americans to get it. Worthy was a damn good player in college. After all, he was a #1 overall pick. I think their career accolades are very similar.

I'm not going to press you about the Ginobili over Lebron/Kobe in the 4th quarter of a Game 7 thing. I just think that's such a silly statement it's not worth sidetracking the thread.

Johnny Firpo · Post #13 » by **Johnny Firpo** » Sat May 25, 2013 10:25 pm

You're saying you don't want to sidetrack the thread, yet you feel the need to mention it was a silly statement. I'm reasonably sure most "clutch-stat" we have would rank Ginobili 1st place amongst those 3, so why would it be an outlandish claim? Ginobili is one of the best ever at the crucial possessions. And no, nr. 3 should not be a debate. You're comparing the olympic games, and world championships with college ball? :lol:

BattleTested · Post #14 » by **BattleTested** » Sun May 26, 2013 2:07 am

Johnny Firpo wrote:You're saying you don't want to sidetrack the thread, yet you feel the need to mention it was a silly statement. I'm reasonably sure most "clutch-stat" we have would rank Ginobili 1st place amongst those 3, so why would it be an outlandish claim?

Well I'd like to see the clutch stats that lead you to believe this before I get into that debate.

. And no, nr. 3 should not be a debate. You're comparing the olympic games, and world championships with college ball?

Yeah, what's wrong with that? Worthy was playing for national titles. He was a decorated player coming into the NBA. Then he became the 3rd and eventual 2nd option on what many consider to be the best team of all time. He had a great career.

When did Manu Ginobili win a world championship? He won an Italian championship and a Euroleague championship, but those aren't quite as impressive as being the tournaments MOP, in my eyes at least. They count for something but what Manu really has in his corner that sways this category is that 2004 gold medal. That's a huge accomplishment. A gold medal's good to have regardless, but when you get it against a team full of NBA All stars (poorly prepared as they were) it's something that matters in these career for career comparisons. I think that medal alone stands up to a National Title, when you add in the rest Manu's outside the NBA career dwarfs Worthy's college years. But Worthy had a more accomplished and impressive NBA career in my eyes. So I thought it would be an interesting debate.

Oh, you also called him a 4x champ. I don't know if that was a typo but he's not. He was only on 3 title winning teams, the same as Worthy. And for one of those rings he averaged 7.6 PPG in 20 MPG.

sp6r=underrated · Post #15 » by **sp6r=underrated** » Sun May 26, 2013 3:10 am

Manu was better on a per minute basis but the durability factor cannot be denied. Manu was never able to be consistently on the court year in year out. Worthy for the 1st three. Manu for the 4th because as said when Manu is healthy is a better player by a fair margin than Worthy.

HeartBreakKid · Post #16 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Sun May 26, 2013 4:17 am

JordansBulls wrote:Worthy was just a more impactful player overall than Manu. It is also why he starts in games over Manu.

How does your second sentence make any sense? They are not on the same team, and I'm pretty sure Manu Ginobli could start on any team in the NBA if he wanted too. :lol:

Gideon · Post #17 » by **Gideon** » Sun May 26, 2013 6:14 am

I feel like Manu is a full tier or so above Worthy... not just better, but better with significant room to spare (maybe 20 or so players between them on an all-time list). Manu's 6th-man role on a great Spurs team has led him to be extremely underrated imo... Manu is somebody who has had the advanced stats (and also the impact imo) of a major star and I think he would have had the box-score stats too if he had ever been a first option playing 36-38 mpg somewhere, while I feel Worthy's skills were actually more-or-less maximized in the showtime system, with other scoring options there to take pressure off him and Magic feeding him the ball on breaks.

Scoring over Manu's and Worthy's respective careers is similar (Worthy has a 2.6 edge in career ppg, but only a 0.1 edge in career points per 36), but Manu played in a much slower-paced era and shot a higher TS%. Manu was a far superior ballhandler and facilitator/passer, and also a better defender. Worthy wasn't even really a better rebounder. Worthy has a very slightly higher TRB% (8.9% vs 8.3%), but that's virtually identical, and Worthy played played a role that allowed him to be closer to the hoop and have more rebounding opportunities.

Worthy also got to play his entire career with the best PG of all-time setting him up. Sure, Tony Parker is a great player, but he's not anywhere near Magic when it comes to finding easy shots for teammates.

I get that Worthy's play picked up when it counted most... but so did Manu's. In fact, Manu outpaces Worthy in PS ws/48, TRB%, AP% and Drtg (Worthy has a higher Ortg). Manu came up big in multiple important series, including notably the 05 and 07 WCF (22-6-5-2/49-39-74 in 36 mpg and 18-4-4-1/48-48-74 in 30 mpg, respectively), and his performance in the 05 Finals (19-6-4 on elite TS% in a low-scoring series) matches up well against Worthy's FMVP performance in 88 (22-7-4 with lesser percentages and faster pace). Both Manu and Worthy have generally come up big when it's mattered throughout their careers, but I think Manu has the overall edge in the PS as well as in the RS (even though PS is a little closer).

Finally... advanced stats:

Manu: Career WS/48 is .211 (13th all-time), Peak WS/48 is .246, Career ORtg is 114.6 (47th all-time), Peak ORtg is 118 (also had a 34-game season when it was 125), Career DRtg is 99.7 (28th all-time), Peak DRtg is 93, Career TRB% is 8.3%, Peak TRB% is 9.6%, Career AP% is 24.5%, Peak AP% is 30.6%, Career TS% is .589, Peak TS% is .612 (also had a 34-game season when it was .668), Career On/Off is +6.6 in RS (which is really good but not as high as the very top guys like LeBron, Dirk, KG, etc.) and +11.4 in PS (which is super-elite and up there with just about anybody)

Worthy: Career WS/48 is .130, Peak WS/48 is .185, Career ORtg is 112, Peak ORtg is 120, Career DRtg is 108, Peak DRtg is 105, Career TRB% is 8.9%, Peak TRB% is 12.0%, Career AP% is 14.0%, Peak AP% is 20.3%, Career TS% is .559, Peak TS% is .613, On/Off not available for his era.

I think this isn't even close... when I opened up the thread, I expected it to consist of a bunch of people basically saying it was really obvious Manu was better. After seeing most people didn't feel that way, I thought about it some more and did some research, but I still feel like Manu is just way better.

Johnny Firpo · Post #18 » by **Johnny Firpo** » Sun May 26, 2013 9:57 am

BattleTested wrote:Well I'd like to see the clutch stats that lead you to believe this before I get into that debate.

Well, i don't know where to find that to be honest, tried to google it, with no luck. Anyway, i bumped into those stats during the years here at realgm, and there were a lot. With Kobe, it would be easy, imo it has been proven, many times that he is a quite average clutch performer (amongst all-time greats obviously), there have been numerous articles, the most famous one being the " the myth about Bryant in the clutch", or something like that.

No need to search for those, i'm sure you've read it as well. Now of course, the Ginobili stats would be more hard to find, but i vividly remember that he has one of the highest win shares in crunch time, one of the highest PPP stats, PER, etc. Maybe somebody will help us out, or has those posts, articles, etc. bookmarked for them. I guess you are right in that if i can't look them up, we should postpone that discussion.

BattleTested wrote:Yeah, what's wrong with that? Worthy was playing for national titles. He was a decorated player coming into the NBA. Then he became the 3rd and eventual 2nd option on what many consider to be the best team of all time. He had a great career.

What's wrong with that, is that it is completely different level. I know for americans it's quite a big deal, but you can't deny, it is a completely different level of play. I have to add, even if you compare college ball to the Euroleague. It should not count the same. College ball should be compared to youth tournaments. It is basically a youth, junior tournament.

BattleTested wrote:When did Manu Ginobili win a world championship? He won an Italian championship and a Euroleague championship, but those aren't quite as impressive as being the tournaments MOP, in my eyes at least. They count for something but what Manu really has in his corner that sways this category is that 2004 gold medal. That's a huge accomplishment. A gold medal's good to have regardless, but when you get it against a team full of NBA All stars (poorly prepared as they were) it's something that matters in these career for career comparisons. I think that medal alone stands up to a National Title, when you add in the rest Manu's outside the NBA career dwarfs Worthy's college years. But Worthy had a more accomplished and impressive NBA career in my eyes. So I thought it would be an interesting debate.

Oh, you also called him a 4x champ. I don't know if that was a typo but he's not. He was only on 3 title winning teams, the same as Worthy. And for one of those rings he averaged 7.6 PPG in 20 MPG.

Yep, you are right in both instance, i remembered it incorrectly, they lost to Serbia in 2002.

BattleTested wrote:I think that medal alone stands up to a National Title

Wait, are you talking about an NBA championship here, or a college title?

BattleTested · Post #19 » by **BattleTested** » Sun May 26, 2013 10:45 am

BattleTested wrote:Yeah, what's wrong with that? Worthy was playing for national titles. He was a decorated player coming into the NBA. Then he became the 3rd and eventual 2nd option on what many consider to be the best team of all time. He had a great career.

What's wrong with that, is that it is completely different level. I know for americans it's quite a big deal, but you can't deny, it is a completely different level of play. I have to add, even if you compare college ball to the Euroleague. It should not count the same. College ball should be compared to youth tournaments. It is basically a youth, junior tournament.

A youth tournament? The best players in the world play in the United States. Obviously there's a lot of talent that comes in from other countries but if you tally up the entire world vs Americans the latter has an overwhelming advantage. In the 1982 national championship game Michael Jordan, Patrick Ewing, Sleepy Floyd, and Sam Perkins joined James Worthy on the court. Even as 18 year olds, who could really **** with MJ or Patrick Ewing in the Euroleague? Who was the best player besides Manu Ginobili in that league? Seriously the best Euroleague players of all time become great 2nd or 3rd options on great teams. All the GOAT's came up through the college system (besides Kobe, Lebron, and KG.) I'd take a high end college team like Worthy's Tar Heels over almost any Euroleague team that ever existed.

You have to remember guys stayed in school back then. So you had real teams who had played together multiple years as opposed to the one and done thing that happens today. College basketball was legit.

BattleTested wrote:I think that medal alone stands up to a National Title

Wait, are you talking about an NBA championship here, or a college title?[/quote]
College title. An NBA championship is obviously a bigger deal in these comparisons than an Olympic Medal.

Johnny Firpo · Post #20 » by **Johnny Firpo** » Sun May 26, 2013 11:33 am

BattleTested wrote:A youth tournament? The best players in the world play in the United States.

Yes, they do, but they become the best in the NBA, not while they play in college. They are kids when they are play in college. Yes, the NCAA is a glorified youth tournament, and its level of play is nowhere near not only the NBA, but select teams, and yes, the Euroleague as well. Any college team from this year would get destroyed by Olympiacos, Real Madrid, Barcelona, or CSKA Moscow. It's a completely different level of play.

BattleTested wrote:Obviously there's a lot of talent that comes in from other countries but if you tally up the entire world vs Americans the latter has an overwhelming advantage.

Yes, they do have an overwhelming advantage, if you are talking about NBA players. If you are talking about college players, then no, you are wrong imo.

BattleTested wrote:In the 1982 national championship game Michael Jordan, Patrick Ewing, Sleepy Floyd, and Sam Perkins joined James Worthy on the court. Even as 18 year olds, who could really **** with MJ or Patrick Ewing in the Euroleague? Who was the best player besides Manu Ginobili in that league? Seriously the best Euroleague players of all time become great 2nd or 3rd options on great teams. All the GOAT's came up through the college system (besides Kobe, Lebron, and KG.) I'd take a high end college team like Worthy's Tar Heels over almost any Euroleague team that ever existed.You have to remember guys stayed in school back then. So you had real teams who had played together multiple years as opposed to the one and done thing that happens today. College basketball was legit.

You are really overrating 18 year old basketball players, even if they ended up being all-time greats. But let's say you are right, that is still one team in college history, that you would take over any other euroleague final four participant, ever. One team. Or do you think any national champion would beat Euroleague final four teams? I don't want to turn this into a Euroleague vs. College ball debate, because we are talking about Worthy, but still... I can't help to think, you are absolutely wrong about this.

BattleTested wrote:College title. An NBA championship is obviously a bigger deal in these comparisons than an Olympic Medal.

I agree about the latter, but man, that sentence i quoted earlier... Do you think an olympic gold medal stand up to a college championship? You don't say. Well, i think a college championship absolutely doesn't stand up to an olympic championship, and i would be shocked if more poster would agree with you. I have to create a thread about this, honestly, i would be shocked if Olympic gold doesn't win in a landslide, even if i know that the majority of posters who will vote will be americans. Anyway, i guess we'll find out soon.