Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem

[TheUroborosWorm]

Yeah i did, let's be clear, we are talking about our perception of reality, we are trying to measure something that is hard to grasp with numbers and i'm bad with advanced metrics (not, im not, im LAZY with them) Jordan on court impact, considering all the factors, leadership, ferocity, will to win (there was a extra gear there, when he was able to just impose his will into a game and win it) fear factor etc... WAS HUGE! no denying it!

Shaq did have most of those in a "human" level, and as i wrote, his leadership was laughable... so why i say his impact on court was bigger? well, when he was playing ALL THE GAME was about him, all the offense was conditioned by him, all the defense was conditioned by him, opponents teams changed their usual gameplan to "stop Shaq" gameplan... and download a game or two of his peak playoffs and watch it, not full, no need it, just the feeling while watching the game, your eyes go always to him, its like a black hole that has so much atraction power that all the game evolves out of him... without touching the ball.

[Gregoire]

Yeah i did, let's be clear, we are talking about our perception of reality, we are trying to measure something that is hard to grasp with numbers and i'm bad with advanced metrics (not, im not, im LAZY with them) Jordan on court impact, considering all the factors, leadership, ferocity, will to win (there was a extra gear there, when he was able to just impose his will into a game and win it) fear factor etc... WAS HUGE! no denying it!

Shaq did have most of those in a "human" level, and as i wrote, his leadership was laughable... so why i say his impact on court was bigger? well, when he was playing ALL THE GAME was about him, all the offense was conditioned by him, all the defense was conditioned by him, opponents teams changed their usual gameplan to "stop Shaq" gameplan... and download a game or two of his peak playoffs and watch it, not full, no need it, just the feeling while watching the game, your eyes go always to him, its like a black hole that has so much atraction power that all the game evolves out of him... without touching the ball.

Intangibles are a part of on-court impact and I asked about it, not about marketing. For me MJ peak pure impact as a bbal player is slightly greater than other 3 (even greater than Shaqs) , but if we talk about marketability and off-court - Jordan advantage just unfair.

[spectacularmove]

Yeah i did, let's be clear, we are talking about our perception of reality, we are trying to measure something that is hard to grasp with numbers and i'm bad with advanced metrics (not, im not, im LAZY with them) Jordan on court impact, considering all the factors, leadership, ferocity, will to win (there was a extra gear there, when he was able to just impose his will into a game and win it) fear factor etc... WAS HUGE! no denying it!

Shaq did have most of those in a "human" level, and as i wrote, his leadership was laughable... so why i say his impact on court was bigger? well, when he was playing ALL THE GAME was about him, all the offense was conditioned by him, all the defense was conditioned by him, opponents teams changed their usual gameplan to "stop Shaq" gameplan... and download a game or two of his peak playoffs and watch it, not full, no need it, just the feeling while watching the game, your eyes go always to him, its like a black hole that has so much atraction power that all the game evolves out of him... without touching the ball.

Ok, fair enough, although I feel we have a different view of "impact". IMO not because someone makes all the game about him has the bigger impact or gives his team the biggest odds to win. Example, Shaq caught more defensive attention than MJ, but that's because you simply can't put the same deffensive attention on a wing that the one you put on a center, specially if that wing plays great off the ball and the center is as big as Shaq.Sometimes less is more. I remember Kevin Machale once said that you could control MJ if you make him take 12 shots a game, and I was like "is this guy an idiot?" How in the hell are you gonna make MJ take 12 shots a game?? I mean the whole team would have to be guarding him, and in that case he would end up hurting you even more. I think this is a factor that often gets overview, a wing doesn't get the same defensive attention as a center not because the other team doesn't fear them as much, its because they simply can't put the same deffensive attention on them.
I asked you about the points you made because I found it strange that you would make the "marketing" factor the only reason to put MJ above Shaq. Any way take a look at this video, Horace Grant, who was a teammate of both of them during their peaks, talks about the comparision. 32:52 mark

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkVxSezwdAQ#t=1971[/youtube]

[KayDee35]

Some great posts in this thread providing further proof that even reasonable people can disagree.

Here's my ranking:

1. Shaq
2. Jordan
3. LeBron
4. Hakeem
5. Durant (was asked about him in PM by OP). Isn't assertive or dominant enough yet.

I'm going to make my case for '99-'00 Shaq in this post.

Stats:
1. 29.7/13.6/3.8/0/5/3.0, 30.6 PER, .574 FG% in the RS.
2. 30.6/15.4/3.1/0.6/2.4, 30.5 PER, .566 FG% in the Playoffs.
3. 38.0/16.7/2.3/1.0/2.7, 31.1 PER, .611 FG% in the Finals.
4. All NBA 1st Team, All NBA Defensive 2nd Team.
5. Led the league in Offensive and Defensive Win Shares, which hadn't been done since KAJ.
6. 1 vote shy of being the first unanimous MVP.
7. 31.5 EWA, 18.6 WS, 17.1 WARP. Not his best ever, but still solid.

Non-statistical factors:
- Shaq was unguardable and a major headache for opponents. Teams went out and overpaid centers just to guard Shaq.
- Defenses would get pulled in by Shaq's post-ups and his teammates would get open looks.
- Many defenses would be in the bonus in the first quarter from early fouls on Shaq.
- If you wanted to get out of a scoring rut, just dump the ball inside to Shaq.
- Shaq was an unstoppable force who would bull his way to the rim for easy buckets. He would dunk over anyone and everyone with impunity.
- Shaq often led the league in dunks, and extrapolating his stats, he would have averaged nearly 4 dunks per game, which is demoralizing to teams, opposing crowds, and individual defenders while firing up your fans and teammates.

The most unstoppable play in basketball is to give the ball to Shaq down low. MJ has a lot more versatility and can score efficiently in a multitude of ways, but none of those is as unstoppable as a Shaq post-up. Add to that the fact that the center position is usually pretty thin (even when it's top heavy) from top to bottom due to the smaller pool of players available and Shaq's advantage grows.

One season, one playoff run, I'm taking Shaq.

[Gregoire]

...

Yes, I definelty agree. Jordan peak impact in unmatched IMO even by best two-way bigs like Shaq, Wilt or Kareem. Perimeter volume scorer ( who creates for himself and teammates) like Jordan (with insane effiency, halfcourt game and transition) impact the game on offense even more than best post-up volume bigs ( who are rare things by themselves). And I dont know about defensive attention: IMO Jordan at his peak years (88-92) faced same or even more doubles, trapes and generally defensive attention ( which dont = double-teams), his presence on offense was even greater than Barkley, Shaq or Kareem for me. Best centers closed the gap by their defense, but MJ was beast on D himself, so I dont see his overall peak matched. Assuming intangibles, raising the game on command and late-game situations effect (4th quarter and last N minutes)... For me he affected the game the most.

[Jaivl]

1. '91 Jordan
2A/2B. '00 Shaq
2B/2A. '13 Lebron
4. '93 Hakeem

Quick summary:

Jordan: What can I say... Maybe the GOAT offensive season, insane volume scoring (31.5 ppg) in insane efficiency (+7.1 TS%) while taking amazing care of the ball (<9% TOV in both regular season and postseason). His passing numbers were even better in the postseason (8.4 assists / 2.5 turnovers). Great impact on defense as well. Not a hole in his game.

Shaq: Jordan-like scoring numbers (29.7 points in +5.5 TS%). Great distributor in the low block (3.8 assists / <10% TOV). Clearly his best year on defense (HE DEFENDED THE P&R!!!). #1 in RAPM with a clear margin. Slightly overrated playoff run ("only" 55.6 TS%), but still all-time great (8.1% TOV, 30.7 points, 15.4 rebounds).

Lebron: Ultra-efficient scoring (+10.6 TS%), great overall game (26.8 points, 8.0 rebounds, 7.3 assists), active and versatile on defense (elite defense in 3-4 positions). Sub-par playoff performance (by his standards). Well, it was last season, we all know what he did lol.

Hakeem: Arguably the first year he was the BITW. Great offensive year (26.8 points, +4.1 TS%), extremely impactful on defense as always (>6.5% BLK in '93 RS and postseason). Better postseason than the following year IMO (he scored less and lost the ball more, but the rebounding and defensive advantages are hard to overcome).

[Gregoire]

1. '91 Jordan
2A/2B. '00 Shaq
2B/2A. '13 Lebron
4. '93 Hakeem

Quick summary:

Jordan: What can I say... Maybe the GOAT offensive season, insane volume scoring (31.5 ppg) in insane efficiency (+7.1 TS%) while taking amazing care of the ball (<9% TOV in both regular season and postseason). His passing numbers were even better in the postseason (8.4 assists / 2.5 turnovers). Great impact on defense as well. Not a hole in his game.

Shaq: Jordan-like scoring numbers (29.7 points in +5.5 TS%). Great distributor in the low block (3.8 assists / <10% TOV). Clearly his best year on defense (HE DEFENDED THE P&R!!!). #1 in RAPM with a clear margin. Slightly overrated playoff run ("only" 55.6 TS%), but still all-time great (8.1% TOV, 30.7 points, 15.4 rebounds).

Lebron: Ultra-efficient scoring (+10.6 TS%), great overall game (26.8 points, 8.0 rebounds, 7.3 assists), active and versatile on defense (elite defense in 3-4 positions). Sub-par playoff performance (by his standards). Well, it was last season, we all know what he did lol.

Hakeem: Arguably the first year he was the BITW. Great offensive year (26.8 points, +4.1 TS%), extremely impactful on defense as always (>6.5% BLK in '93 RS and postseason). Better postseason than the following year IMO (he scored less and lost the ball more, but the rebounding and defensive advantages are hard to overcome).

Very good post, basically my rankings too... Lebron and Shaq are closest...

[Quotatious]

Yes, I definelty agree. Jordan peak impact in unmatched IMO even by best two-way bigs like Shaq, Wilt or Kareem. Perimeter volume scorer ( who creates for himself and teammates) like Jordan (with insane effiency, halfcourt game and transition) impact the game on offense even more than best post-up volume bigs ( who are rare things by themselves). And I dont know about defensive attention: IMO Jordan at his peak years (88-92) faced same or even more doubles, trapes and generally defensive attention ( which dont = double-teams), his presence on offense was even greater than Barkley, Shaq or Kareem for me. Best centers closed the gap by their defense, but MJ was beast on D himself, so I dont see his overall peak matched. Assuming intangibles, raising the game on command and late-game situations effect (4th quarter and last N minutes)... For me he affected the game the most.

Good post. I think that Shaq had to deal with a bit more defensive attention than Jordan (but that's just because he played much closer to the basket, and was a 7'1'' 325 lbs monster with great athleticism, so you just HAD to double him, you didn't have any other choice). Shaq was still probably a bit easier to contain because he didn't have outside shooting touch at all (I don't count hook shots from 10 feet as an "outside shot"), and obviously couldn't beat people off the bounce like MJ. I think it could be argued that MJ received the same amount, or slightly more, defensive attention than KAJ or Hakeem. I wonder how teams would've defended Jordan if they could play zones like today - I could literally see an entire team collapsing on him when he drove the middle. It would mean a lot of open looks for his teammates, knowing how good his court vision was.

[Gregoire]

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[JordansBulls]

You love bumping this thread don't you?

[Gregoire]

Now, after season ended, I have the feeling that Lebron 14 was maybe his actual peak as a playoffs player (and its only thing that matters IMO). I have both peak playoffs Lebron 12 and Lebron 14 at 6,5 +2,5 SRS player.
Peak playoffs MJ 90-92 at 7,0 + 2,5 SRS, playoffs Shaq 00 and 01 - 6,0 +3,0 , peak playoffs Hakeem 93 and 94 at5,5 + 3,5 SRS

[Jaivl]

Now, after season ended, I have the feeling that Lebron 14 was maybe his actual peak as a playoffs player (and its only thing that matters IMO). I have both peak playoffs Lebron 12 and Lebron 14 at 6,5 +2,5 SRS player.
Peak playoffs MJ 90-92 at 7,0 + 2,5 SRS, playoffs Shaq 00 and 01 - 6,0 +3,0 , peak playoffs Hakeem 93 and 94 at5,5 + 3,5 SRS

Fair. I'm a bit lower on Hakeem's offense (5 + 3.5 or even 5 + 4), but sounds ok.

[90sAllDecade]

1. Olajuwon/Jordan
2. Shaq
3. LeBron

I'm going to focus on Jordan, for now.

Olajuwon from 93-95 was clearly the most dominant defensive player in the game, none of the others can say the same and had to be the clear #1 anchor on both offense and defense during his peak.

He also had the least team support and coaching of all of those four, not to mention the toughest competition and difficulty during his peak runs. Jordan could defer to Scottie Pippen for defensive duties and had two HOF coaches in Tex Winters and a GOAT level coach in Phil Jackson.

Even with his talent and coaching disparity, Hakeem regularly beat Jordan in their meetings, he was a very bad match-up for those Bulls. The team that challenged the Bulls the most during these years was another one with a dominant center in Ewing and the Knicks.

If Olajuwon is given equal talent and coaching (as in prime Drexler, Thorpe, shooters and Chuck Daly), there is a strong chance Jordan loses in some of those finals to Hakeem imo.

[Gregoire]

1. Olajuwon/Jordan
2. Shaq
3. LeBron

I'm going to focus on Jordan, for now.

Olajuwon from 93-95 was clearly the most dominant defensive player in the game, none of the others can say the same and had to be the clear #1 anchor on both offense and defense during his peak.

He also had the least team support and coaching of all of those four, not to mention the toughest competition and difficulty during his peak runs. Jordan could defer to Scottie Pippen for defensive duties and had two HOF coaches in Tex Winters and a GOAT level coach in Phil Jackson.

Even with his talent and coaching disparity, Hakeem regularly beat Jordan in their meetings, he was a very bad match-up for those Bulls. The team that challenged the Bulls the most during these years was another one with a dominant center in Ewing and the Knicks.

If Olajuwon is given equal talent and coaching (as in prime Drexler, Thorpe, shooters and Chuck Daly), there is a strong chance Jordan loses in some of those finals to Hakeem imo.

How do you feel about Jordan peak vs Hakeem peak?

[baki]

Surprised at the results so far but I'm going to have to go with Lebron.

1. Lebron
2. Jordan
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem

Why?

Lebron literally carried the weakest team (Cleveland) I've ever seen into the NBA finals.

Jordan couldn't win without Pippen.

Shaq can't shoot 3 pointers.

Hakeem 2 titles over 18 years just isn't enough.

[Gregoire]

Recent posts by acrossthecourt in top-100 project gave me some doubt about Shaq vs Hakeem peaks... Now maybe I learn to Hakeem in 1year peak...

[baki]

Recent posts by acrossthecourt in top-100 project gave me some doubt about Shaq vs Hakeem peaks... Now maybe I learn to Hakeem in 1year peak...

Well Shaq dominated from the get go, Hakeem took some time.

I think more players feared Shaq more than Hakeem.

[SactoKingsFan]

Jordan
LeBron
Shaq
Hakeem

Sent from my G2 via Tapatalk

[Gregoire]

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[Volcano]

Intangibles are a part of on-court impact and I asked about it, not about marketing. For me MJ peak pure impact as a bbal player is slightly greater than other 3 (even greater than Shaqs) , but if we talk about marketability and off-court - Jordan advantage just unfair.

when Shaq went off the court, Lakers went to ****..when Jordan stepped off the court, Chicago almost went to the ECF