1971 Kareem vs 1994 Hakeem

[Quotatious]

Who was better?

[RayBan-Sematra]

Hakeem.
He was way better offensively and defensively in the playoffs in a longer run.
He was also more refined and far more experienced as a player.

While he was not the best player on that squad Oscar was really the one running the show on that early 70's Milwaukee team. He was far more important to Kareem's individual effectiveness then Drexler was to Hakeem's.

To Kareem's credit he was certainly the better rebounder.

[Gregoire]

IMO Hakeem was slightly better: offense is tie or maybe kareem, but hakeem was clearly better defensively.

[DQuinn1575]

Kareem was way way way better offensively than Hakeem ever was.

At worst, Kareem in 1971 was 3rd-4th best player ever.

He was by far the best player on one of the winningest teams ever.

I love Hakeem, but it's not really close.

[lorak]

Kareem was way way way better offensively than Hakeem ever was.

He might be slightly better, but it's very close, while on defensive end Hakeem has big advantage.

At worst, Kareem in 1971 was 3rd-4th best player ever.

He was by far the best player on one of the winningest teams ever.

That's common misconception about that 1971 team, because Oscar was the best Bucks player then.

[Quotatious]

That's common misconception about that 1971 team, because Oscar was the best Bucks player then.

We know that you love the Big O, but do you really believe that? Okay, Robertson was still certainly great in 1971, but it was Kareem's team, and KAJ was the best player in the league that season. He won the finals MVP totally deservedly. Anything different is a revisionist history at its best.

I know some people at the time thought that Oscar was the best player on this team (like Gene Shue said after the 1971 finals), but when I see a guy like KAJ, who came into the league and immediately improved his team by 29 wins and +9.32 SRS, I have ZERO doubt that he had to be the best on that team. Well, he even has an excellent case to be the best player in the league right away in 1969-70 (I have West slightly ahead of him, but I can easily understand someone preferring Abdul-Jabbar).

[Reservoirdawgs]

Can someone explain how Oscar was the best player on the 1971 Bucks? Unfortunately we don't have the data for some of the advanced stats, but looking over what we do have I don't exactly see how that would be the case. Even looking at videos online (granted, highlight videos) don't really convince me that Oscar was the driving force on that '71 Bucks team.

[The Infamous1]

Lol at oscar being the best player on the bucks.

As for this thread Kareem, but it's close

[lorak]

[
I know some people at the time thought that Oscar was the best player on this team (like Gene Shue said after the 1971 finals), but when I see a guy like KAJ, who came into the league and immediately improved his team by 29 wins and +9.32 SRS, I have ZERO doubt that he had to be the best on that team.

There were also other changes (with Dandridge as the most important one after KAJ), for example rookie coach in 1969 and 6 other rookies on the roster - not all of them played significant minutes, but my point is that team was a mess, a lot of players, completely new organization, so no surprise their record was weak, so whoever joined next year would look like more impcatfull than in reality, under normal conditions.

Or how you comment what Bastillon was talking about KAJ's impact - we know what happened with Bucks after he left or Lakers when he joined them - doesn't seem like +9 SRS impact (even if we adjust for players which replaced him). We also know how Bucks played without him in 1975 and MOV with him was +1.7 and -5.6 without so net +7.3. On the other hand we know exactly how great was Robertson's impact, because he missed a lot of games in 1972: according to Elgee's study MOV with him was +13 (the most among players in Elgee's study, and that includes Walton!) and net +8.2. That's GOAT like impact, because he improved a good team to great one. And it's not some random data as we have seen the same in Cinncinati.

I think we are dealing with scoring bias here, I mean, it's similar story to how some people perceived Nash and Amare - some of them thought Amare was more important Suns player, because he scored more points. All that "first option" crap. But if we look behind that, at impact stats or watch the games to so how these teams played, we will see that point guards were the best players.

[Laimbeer]

The Nash/Amare dynamic was different. Nash was often setting Amare up in prime position. Oscar was dropping the ball to Kareem on the low block. I could have done that.

[lorak]

The Nash/Amare dynamic was different. Nash was often setting Amare up in prime position. Oscar was dropping the ball to Kareem on the low block. I could have done that.

It's not so simple. Even basic entry pass on NBA level is difficult task, because you can't just throw the ball to the big. You have to do it in right time, in tempo (what's not so easy with defenders long hands trying to deflect the pass), what would allow big man to score as quick as possible, because the more big dribble, the more probable it is he would turn the ball over.

It's just starting point for discussion how much Oscar helped to KAJ, but look:

Code: Select all

FG%   PPG   PPG per36   period
56,2   30,9   26,1   4 years with Oscar
51,6   29,3   24,7   2 years in MIL w/o Oscar
55,8   25,9   24,2   4 years in LAL before Magic
58,6   24,2   24,3   first 4 years with Magic
56,0   18,2   21,6   last 6 years in LAL


(and we also know how bad KAJ played in 1972 playoffs, when Oscar was injured, of course Thurmond also has a lot do to with it)

So KAJ never again was as good scorer (efficiency + volume) as during those 4 years with KAJ. And he no doubt was a player who was better and better over time, so it's not like during his Milwaukee years he was complete offensive players. Sure, he had skyhook or other moves, but wasn't as good as later. For example his shooting touch improved a lot (FT% confirms that).

[tsherkin]

That's a really limited look, though, DS, since it ignores age. Would be worth it to post his FTR as well.

[DQuinn1575]

So the numbers prove Oscar was a better point guard than Flynn Robinson or Jon McGlocklin, who were the guards on the 70 team?

Kareem was by far the best player in the league in 1971.

In 1994, David Robinson got 24 MVP votes versus Hakeem's 66 votes, plus the best player in basketball was doing other things.

[JordansBulls]

Code: Select all

--------- RS PER, WS48, --------- PER, WS48 playoffs
KAJ 1971: 29.0, 0.33, -----------25.0, 0.27 (14 playoff games, title)
Hakeem 1994: 25.3, 0.210----------27.7, 0.208 (23 playoff games, title)

[ceiling raiser]

Code: Select all

--------- RS PER, WS48, --------- PER, WS48 playoffs
KAJ 1971: 29.0, 0.33, -----------25.0, 0.27 (14 playoff games, title)
Hakeem 1994: 25.3, 0.210----------27.7, 0.208 (23 playoff games, title)

There is no 1971 PER. Kareem's blocks are zeroed out in b-r's estimate:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/per.html

[ardee]

This was a sophomore Kareem who wasn't close to his full potential.

Do people really think he was better than a near or absolute peak Hakeem?

1993 Hakeem vs 1977 Kareem... now that's an argument.

But DavidStern come on you're ruining your credibility by saying Oscar was better than Kareem at that point. Offensive numbers, defensive eye test with what little we have, it's one of the clearest cases of 1 and 2 in history.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[Quotatious]

This was a sophomore Kareem who wasn't close to his full potential.

Do people really think he was better than a near or absolute peak Hakeem?

I think it's close, that's why I started this thread. I probably would take Hakeem, but the difference is IMO pretty small. Abdul-Jabbar improved as a postseason performer, and as DS noted, his shooting touch got better, but he was putting up monster stats, and was already the best player in the NBA. Vast majority of posters here have Kareem well over Hakeem on all-time lists, so it's not a reach to say that KAJ might've had a few seasons as good or better than Olajuwon's best. I have 1994 (or '93, or '95, doesn't really matter) Hakeem in the top 5 (probably 4th) among the highest peaks ever, and 1977 Kareem 6th (1971 would still probably make the top 10), but even so, I feel like from a totally individual standpoint, '77 Kareem may've been a better player than peak Hakeem, and '71 is very close. So, I just think that I might subconsciously punish KAJ for getting swept by the Blazers...Which is certainly a sizeable flaw in my approach, but on the other hand, all of the other guys in my top 10 peaks (91 Jordan, 67 Wilt, 00 Shaq, 94 Hakeem, 13 LeBron, 65 Russell, 03 Duncan, 86 Bird and 87 Magic, and then also 76 Dr. J), won championships at their peaks, and Jabbar didn't, so it might be hard to separate his individual performance and somehow put it into context which isn't affected by the winning bias...

I don't see a problem with '71 being sophomore Kareem. He was already 24 years old, with ton of expierience as a college player, spending 4 years at UCLA, and also playing 10 games in the postseason (playing AWESOME basketball in those games during the 1970 playoffs, at that). Some guys are just ready for stardom basically since day one, and it's not uncommon to see all-time greats being superstars since their rookie seasons - like Jordan, Shaq or Duncan, not to mention the 60s guys like Russell, Wilt, Oscar or Baylor.

[D.Brasco]

This was a sophomore Kareem who wasn't close to his full potential.

Do people really think he was better than a near or absolute peak Hakeem?

1993 Hakeem vs 1977 Kareem... now that's an argument.

But DavidStern come on you're ruining your credibility by saying Oscar was better than Kareem at that point. Offensive numbers, defensive eye test with what little we have, it's one of the clearest cases of 1 and 2 in history.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using RealGM Forums mobile app

Kareem came into the league in his prime essentially, not too dissimilar to Tim Duncan. Two players who stayed all 4 years in college.

By 1971 he was already considered the best player in the league, he put up 31 and 16 on .577 that year for god's sake. I would argue Kareem's peak years were actually on the Bucks not the lakers. Kareem actually gained the reputation of being a bit of a slacker during his laker years pre-magic.

Kareem was arguably never more mobile than in his bucks years either, people picture kareem from his 80's lakers years where he was relatively slow. I'd say 1971 Kareem was more athletic than 1994 hakeem despite being about 4 inches taller.

Hakeem especially his 1994-1995 seasons gets waay overrated on these parts. I'd put Bucks kareem on par with peak wilt and shaq in terms of players who had no right to be as dominant and athletic as they were for their size.

[JordansBulls]

This was a sophomore Kareem who wasn't close to his full potential.

Do people really think he was better than a near or absolute peak Hakeem?

1993 Hakeem vs 1977 Kareem... now that's an argument.

But DavidStern come on you're ruining your credibility by saying Oscar was better than Kareem at that point. Offensive numbers, defensive eye test with what little we have, it's one of the clearest cases of 1 and 2 in history.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using RealGM Forums mobile app

1971 Kareem was peak Kareem.

[DEEP3CL]

Hakeem.
He was way better offensively and defensively in the playoffs in a longer run.
He was also more refined and far more experienced as a player.

While he was not the best player on that squad Oscar was really the one running the show on that early 70's Milwaukee team. He was far more important to Kareem's individual effectiveness then Drexler was to Hakeem's.

To Kareem's credit he was certainly the better rebounder.

You must be basing your thoughts on what the players were at the year the OP pointed out. Kareem was in his 2nd season and was busting most of the centers he face right in the mouth. Olajuwon was in his 10th season in 94, but no way in hell was he better than Jabbar even at that stage of his career.