Western Conference Conference Finals: (5) ThunderDan9 vs. (7) O_6
(5) ThunderDan9 1. Larry Bird (84-86) 2. Dwight Howard (09-11) 3. Manu Ginobili (05-07) 4. Mark Price (92-94) 5. Horace Grant (93-95) 6. Bernard King (82-84) 7. Vlade Divac (95-97) 8. Derek Harper (88-90) 9. Dan Majerle (91-93) 10. Josh Smith (10-12)
(7) O_6 1. Kevin Durant (12-14) 2. Patrick Ewing (90-92) 3. Penny Hardaway (94-96) 4. Rasheed Wallace (01-03) 5. Joe Johnson (08-10) 6. Dennis Johnson (80-82) 7. Joakim Noah (12-14) 8. Shane Battier (06-08) 9. Antonio McDyess (99-01) 10. Terrell Brandon (95-97)
In each match up, GMs will offer their preliminary strategy for beating the other team and reasons for why their team is stronger. GMs will also have the opportunity to respond to the opponent's strategy. Judges will offer any comments and questions they have of the GMs and finally will cast their vote for whichever team they think is stronger simply by saying 'Team A wins this matchup' or 'Team B wins this matchup'. Whoever gets more votes moves on.
This is a fabulous matchup. Can't wait to hear the plans each guy has.
Here's hoping KD and Bird go right at each other.
ThunderBolt wrote:I’m going to let some of you in on a little secret I learned on realgm. If you don’t like a thread, not only do you not have to comment but you don’t even have to open it and read it. You’re welcome.
Texas Chuck wrote:Here's hoping KD and Bird go right at each other.
Yeah, but it wouldn't be pretty for Thunder Dan. Durant would do a much better job guarding Bird one on one than vice versa.
Over these three years, I would say Durant was a below average man defender. Only this year has he been above average. So, I don't think either of them has a chance of stopping each other (Bird and Durant, that is)
MisterHibachi wrote:Over these three years, I would say Durant was a below average man defender. Only this year has he been above average. So, I don't think either of them has a chance of stopping each other (Bird and Durant, that is)
I agree, and I'm not saying that either Bird or Durant would really stop each other (not even LeBron could stop Durant - look at 2012 finals), no, they're both unstoppable. The only thing you could hope for is that their jumper wouldn't fall, however I think that Durant's superior quickness and length would allow his to bother Bird's shots, even if just a bit. I'd probably have Sheed as the primary defender on Bird if I were O_6, with Durant on Grant. Thunder Dan has it much worse, because he doesn't have anyone who could bother KD. Manu and Majerle are too small. Josh Smith was an excellent help defender, but man to man, he's unimpressive. I could see it being a good argument in O_6's favor.
Stop with all the strategy talk. I wanted Nique/Bird only moreso. Just talking as a fan how awesome it would be.
ThunderBolt wrote:I’m going to let some of you in on a little secret I learned on realgm. If you don’t like a thread, not only do you not have to comment but you don’t even have to open it and read it. You’re welcome.
Minutes Ewing (35) – Rasheed (7) – Noah (6) Rasheed (22) – Durant (11) – Noah (11) - McDyess (4) Durant (26) – Battier (11) – Joe J. (11) Battier (18) – DJ (18) – Joe J. (12) Penny (36) – Brandon (12)
Defensive Matchups - Ewing will mainly guard Dwight, but will see some time on Grant - Rasheed will mainly guard Grant, but will see some time on Dwight - Noah will guard both Dwight and Grant - Ewing/Sheed/Noah will guard Divac - Battier/KD will split duties on guarding Bird/Manu - Battier will mostly guard Bird but will also have his turns on Manu - Durant will mostly guard Manu but will guard Bird at times - Battier/KD will both get turns guarding King - DJ will guard both Manu and Price, usually the guy who is hotter - Penny will guard Price/Harper most of the time, he’ll see some time on Manu - Joe J. will usually guard Manu and sometimes King - Brandon will guard Price/Harper - McDyess will guard Grant - One of Ewing/Sheed/Noah will always be on the floor giving me an elite anchor all game - For a good chunk of the game in traditional lineups, I’ll likely have 2 of them on the floor - Battier/DJ will be on the floor together a lot in small-ball lineups, 2 elite perimeter defenders
Offensive Strategy - Durant will be my #1 scoring option as usual - Durant will score at will against Bird/King - Durant will probably be guarded by Manu a lot, tougher than Bird/King but KD will get his - Penny will be my 2nd option, he’ll probably be guarded by Price or Manu - Penny will score at will against Price, especially in the post - Some PnR stuff with Penny as the ball-handler, especially when Grant is out of the game - With only Manu being capable of guarding Penny or KD, one of them will have a mismatch - Ewing will get his touches in the post to make Dwight work - Ewing will space the floor with his mid-range jumper and take Dwight away from the rim - Bird/King/Price in the small-ball lineup will be porous on D - It will be especially bad because Dwight has to worry about Ewing or go out to guard Sheed - Joe J. will be my scorer off the bench, forcing Bird to guard either him or Durant for stretches - He will abuse mismatches when guys like Price, Bird, or King are guarding him - Rasheed will space the floor with his 3pt range and also get some post-ups - In a small-ball lineup, Rasheed will play Center at times to pull Dwight to the perimeter - DJ will handle the ball some, but mainly be an off-ball cutter and mid-range shooter off screens - Battier will space the floor and move the ball around - Noah will focus on passing, rebounding, defending and being the stud role player that he is - Brandon will run the team when Penny is on the bench - McDyess won’t play much this series, but he can provide an interior scoring punch if necessary
Why I feel like I’d win ThunderDan9 has a fantastic team, his offense is just so diverse and seeing that team pass and move off the ball and shoot would be impressive to watch. He also has a great defensive interior with Grant/Dwight protecting the paint and he has a good (but not great imo) perimeter defender in Manu. It’s a very good team and was one of my favourite teams at the start of this project.
But that being said I still like my team better. I like my defense better in both the traditional and small-ball lineups.
Traditional ---------------------- Small.Ball Ewing ------ Howard ----------- Ewing ------ Howard Rasheed --- Grant -------------- Durant ----- Bird Durant ----- Bird ---------------- Battier ----- King Battier ----- Manu --------------- DJ/JJ ------ Manu Penny ------ Price --------------- Penny ------ Price
In a traditional lineup, we have similar level interior defenders but I clearly have the stronger perimeter defense led by Battier. Battier was a DPOY calibre defender during these years I selected, he was the best perimeter defender in the NBA during this 3 yr run. Artest and Bowen have an argument but for these 3 years in particular I take Battier over anyone in the NBA as a perimeter defender. Manu is the best wing defender on ThunderDan9’s team and while he was a good defender, no one ever considered him a Battier level defender because he wasn’t. He wasn’t even the best perimeter defender on his own team with Bowen around. And on top of the Battier > Manu edge on D, Penny/KD are better perimeter defenders than Price/Bird. Penny and KD are nothing special on D, I’d rate both as close to average. But Price was a below average PG defender and that’s when he was guarding 6’2” PGs, imagine him trying to guard a freak athlete like Penny. Bird is kind of a tweener on D and can be abused in certain matchups, especially when he has to guard someone on the perimeter.
And then when ThunderDan9 goes small, both teams will likely have to take their stud defensive PFs out of the game. ThunderDan9 will have King in the game in those situations, a very good scorer but also a very bad defensive player. I will bring in DJ or JJ into the game in those situations, both of whom are better defenders than King (DJ being a MUCH better defender). So traditional or small, my team will almost always be the stronger defensive team.
But my team isn’t just going to rely on defense, imo the strength of my team is the offensive and defensive balance of it. With most teams in this project, you can immediately tell if they have a better D or better O. ThunderDan9’s team is more balanced than most but he clearly has a better offense than defense. I think I have the hardest team in this tourney to make that distinction for. I have KD/Penny/Ewing + great spacing giving me a deadly offense, but I also have Ewing/Sheed/Battier/DJ/Noah leading a tough defense that I’d rank as good as any in this tourney outside of Bruh Man’s or CBF’s.
Offensively I will be able to take advantage of certain matchups against ThunderDan9. When it’s Penny/Battier/KD vs. Price/Manu/Bird in a traditional lineup, Bird will be forced to guard Battier which means than Manu will be forced to guard KD. Price has absolutely no chance of guarding Penny due to the major size and athleticism difference. Harper has a much better chance of guarding Penny than Price does, but TD9 would be sacrificing some offense for defense by benching Price for Harper. And still, Penny was a guy who gave Jordan and Pippen some trouble so I don’t think that Harper is going to be slowing him down all that much anyway.
I also plan to use Rasheed at Center a lot in Small-Ball lineups, even though I’ll still use Ewing some when we go small. Howard/Bird/King/Manu/Price will be the likely small-ball lineup for ThunderDan9. That means that if Dwight is forced to guard Sheed at the 3pt line, ThunderDan9’s defense will have absolutely no rim protection. In these lineups King will probably guard KD and Price will probably guard Penny, meaning that my top 2 perimeter scorers will have really bad individual defenders guarding them on top of not having to worry about any interior presence at the rim. I see absolutely no way ThunderDan9 can stop my offense when we go to a small-ball style of play. And defensively, Dwight’s lack of range and Rasheed’s ability to defend him will mean that unlike TD9 my team will have a rim protector inside on top of having two stud defenders on the perimeter in Battier/DJ. Sure he’ll have the edge in the rebounding department when we go small, but I don’t think it would matter that much since he simply can’t guard my team. I truly believe Rasheed vs. Dwight is a mismatch in my favor and will limit the lineup flexibility of TD9’s team.
I really like ThunderDan9’s team and I think this is the toughest matchup I’ve faced so far. I don’t think he necessarily has the “best” team but he certainly has the toughest to matchup for due to the versatility of his offense. So I really want to see his write-up so I can react and respond. Despite his versatile team, I feel like I have one of the most capable teams of beating him because of my offensive and defensive balance. I have the best primary ball-handler in the series imo (Penny > Price in a head to head matchup), I have the best pure scorer in the series (Durant > Bird in terms of scoring), I have the slightly better floor spacing (makes up for his edge in passing), and I have the better defense (especially on the perimeter). This would be a war of a series but I think my team would win.
These two along with john and myself were the 4 teams I thought had the best shot of winning.
Sure enough, john and I got eliminated by these guys, so the winner is going to win the whole damn thing in my eyes.
This is a game 7 OT type of series. Shame that this isn't the real Finals, no offense to Notanoob and Bruh Man but those teams don't hold a candle to this insane combination of passing, shooting and hops we have hear.
I'd side just slightly with O_6. The key here is Ewing-Howard. Howard was great in 09-11 but he's going to get eaten alive here. Kareem 80-82 was a beast but Ewing in his athletic prime was even more of a monster. Poor Dwight won't know what hit him.
On the perimeter it's so close I basically call it a wash. DJ-Manu would be a classic 2-guard matchup between two of the best third bananas on NBA Champions ever. Penny would score on Price but that shooting on the other end... And of course Bird-Durant is the main event, which going by Durant's current form could really go either way. But neither one is going to decisively outplay the other to let a team get a huge advantage through that matchup, no, they're both too competitive. I could see Durant scoring 30 ppg on 65+ TS%, Bird doing his 25-10-7 thing, it'd be like LeBron-Durant in the 2012 Finals only Durant would be better and Bird wouldn't have the defensive impact of LeBron, but better shooting.
I feel King is being a little overestimated at this juncture. If 85 King was in here it'd be a different issue but the average level of play gets dragged down due to the previous years. Game changer but not game winner.
So, yeah, just barely O_6. Hard to pick a series with cores of King-Bird-Dwight vs. Penny-Durant-Ewing with super role players like DJ, Wallace and JJ on one side, with Manu, Grant and Price on the other. But this is the real finals, so no shame in ThunderDan losing here, he's the second best team in the tournament/
I don't want to repeat myself, so those who are interested enough as judges, and didn't participate in the previous rounds, might take a look at the general write-ups for my team (especially in the 1st round topic):
So it's my turn to compliment O_6's team. He did an absolutely fantastic job in the draft, and also great effort in the "coaching" department. His team surely belongs in the Top4 in absolute tems, and has a case for being #1. I especially liked his Top3... he is now my 3rd opponent in a row with a low seed, and hence capitalizing from those early 2nd-4th round picks - especially in that crucial 3rd round (Penny!).
Now, onto the Conference Finals.
O_6 virtually sweeped ardee's mighty team, so they are the favorites now... but I don't think Bird (and Manu) see it that way. On the contrary, they will absolutely ENJOY to play again after that scandalous 2nd round (non-)series.
My biggest problem in this round might be O_6's size! Especially Penny.
That was my initial depth-chart:
PG: Mark Price (34), Derek Harper (14) SG: Manu Ginobili (32), Dan Majerle (16) SF: Larry Bird (24), Bernard King (22), Josh Smith (2) PF: Horace Grant (30), Larry Bird (16), Josh Smith (2) C: Dwight Howard (36), Vlade Divac (12)
In this series, I could really see the taller, stronger Derek Harper seeing more minutes, like even in the 20-22 minutes range. He is a very good, tenacious defender but is also a capable shooter and distributor. With Ginobili, King, Bird etc. on the floor, I can live with giving up some offense when Price is on the bench.
Now, I thought JJ would start, but I can see that O_6 needs Battier against Bird. Not that it would matter much. I must note that Durant is being a bit overrated (or Bird underrated?) in this thread, at least that's how it feels. When I read Q's comment, I almost feel I should have drafted Durant #6 and not Bird. There IS a significant gap between the two, and it's even debatable if Durant is the better "pure scorer" between the two. There might be some "recency bias" here... we are seeing Durant's excellent game right now, but the truth is, we are using a 3-year-stretch, not his current form.
I strongly disagree with ardee's notion that Dwight is "going to get eaten alive here". If O_6 states that Battier is a DPOY-level defender, I have to point out that Dwight Howard is the actual 3-times DPOY in his 3-year-peak we are using here! Howard/Ewing is very much a debate individually, and certainly no decisive factor in favor of O_6.
Spoiler:
here is Dwight Howard in the middle, who doesn't shoot a great many volume of shots, but that's not a bad thing considering that my team features plenty of offensive threats... so his relative flaw (not a dominant scorer with polished offensive moves, like a Hakeem or Kareem) almost turns into a benefit. As we all know, he is still a big threat on the court due to his extreme athleticism, and he would have a) plenty of space because he is surrounded by 3 excellent shooters (Bird, Price, Ginobili) and 1 good midrange shooter (Grant), and b) when the situation occurs, he would be fed by excellent passers (again: Bird, Price, Ginobili) to score easy buckets.
The more I thought of it in the 2nd round of the draft, the better I liked the Howard-pick in this all-time tournament, where there are plenty of scorers... Yes, Dwight is not a polished, skillful iso scorer in the mold of Hakeem (or even Ewing in this case), but I don't need it that much with players like Bird, King, Price, Ginobili... the ball will primarily be in their hands... Ewing's edge is diminishing here, because they are NOT the focal points of the offense. It's not the Knicks or the Magic here... and by all accounts, Howard is one of the best defensive anchors, arguably even better than Pat! He is even more freakishly athletic, he is faster, stronger, a better rebounder, remember what he did with that Magic team with no real defensive help on those squads. By 2011, he was a legit MVP-candidate, and he is still a capable offensive player... he will do what he did - with limited touches: making dunks, little bank shots, drawing fouls, attacking the offensive glass... always remember, surrounded by all those amazing passers and shooters. Let's put it this way: Bird made Parish look like a dunking machine... I can see Howard having a >70% FG%. Scoring just easy buckets, punishing the opponent whenever Ewing or anyone inside has to help out on someone.
PC Board All Time Fantasy Draft:
PG Mark Price (92-94) SG Manu Ginobili (05-07) SF Larry Bird (84-86) PF Horace Grant (93-95) C Dwight Howard (09-11) + Bernard King (82-84) Vlade Divac (95-97) Derek Harper (88-90) Dan Majerle (91-93) Josh Smith (10-12)
I still believe my offense is one of the best in this tournament. I really don't want to bore the crowd, and repeat myself all over again, so I won't talk about Bird, PASSING, creativity, shooting, efficiency, unselfishness, fast-breaks and CLUTCH here. The machinery should prevail once again. As I see, Battier will be the main defender on Bird, and then Durant. I thought Rasheed would also (try!) to guard Larry, but it might be a wise move from O_6 not to attempt is. I would like to point out that JailBlazers-Rasheed is a time-bomb that could go off... a hot-head who is still the all-time leader at technical fouls, can he handle the pressure? Bird will get under his skin and into his head. Or Vlade. I also have to point out that Durant's defense has improved this season, so again: he is a lesser defender than his current version.
Onto my defense:
Spoiler:
3. Team defense. Spoiler: I did not drafted defensive specialists in the mold of Bowen or Ben Wallace... the defense would be still pretty good, with a true defensive anchor in the middle (3*DPOY Dwight) surrounding him with players who again understand the importance of team play on the defensive end as well. Team defense should be great with high basketball iq guys like Bird, Ginobili, Grant, who are also capable defenders individually. Put in tenacious defenders like Majerle and Derek Harper and Josh Smith or even smart Divac... I don't think it would be pleasant to play against my team. This team would also generate some steals, and the rebounding of my starting 5 would be one of the best in the whole field (maybe even #1?). All in all: Bird is paired with an all-time great defensive center, a true difference maker, and gets another great defensive big man in Grant who is quick and athletic enough to switch the forwards of the opposing team occacionally, and good perimeter defenders like Gino, Majerle, Harper... with the fregoli man Josh Smith.
You can't have everything. So of course, my team is not the greatest defensive team in this tournament. But I stick to what I've already said (see spoilers). It's a good defensive unit!
I even admit, that In this series, two match-ups are not in my favor. T-Mac and KAJ. There's no denying it, they will cause problems.
Let's start with highlighting the fact, that while individually there are some (relatively!) problematic match-ups, my team defense should be awesome! I don't want to repeat myself, but just look at my starting 5. - 3*DPOY (!!) Howard in the middle. He made the Magic a defensive force playing alongside the likes of Turkoglu and Rashard Lewis and JJ Redick... He may not be the single greatest man-to-man defender, but he surely is a legitimite defensive anchor. - 3* All-D 2nd Team Horace Grant - can do everything, defends his man, helps out, protects the rim, grabs the rebound (was integral part of a dynasty, feared for its defense) - All-D 2nd Team (84) Larry Bird - I very much enjoyed that highlight vid on his defense in the other thread. His hand-eye coordination, smartness and tenacity don't need further discussion. He is a valuable defender, and an extremely valuable team defender. One more thing, it's Bird with the curly hair , not his 87-88 version, and FOR GOD's SAKE not his post-89 version. Steals. - Manu Ginobili didn't get All-D recognition, but he is without a doubt a very good defender (again, was integral part of a dynasty, feared for its defense). Makes life hard for even for a guy like Ray Allen, is a leech, closes the lanes, contests the shots, is good in transition D covering the holes, smartly positions himself to draw charges (YES, I HAVE 2 ALL-TIME GREAT FLOPPERS! That's an asset!). Steals. - Mark Price - nothing outstanding on D (he doesn't have to guard a Mafgic or Nash here!), but then again, in a team concept, he is still valuable because of his smartness. Steals.
I can live with it. The interior D of the starting 5 is nothing short of outstanding, the perimeter has some problems, but still have Manu. Now, let's take a look at the bench in terms of perimeter D: - 2*All-D 2nd Team Derek Harper - a tenacious defender, who was good enough to carry the Knicks in the 94 playoffs past his prime (we are using his younger version in Dallas!), certainly elevates defensive intensity further. Steals. - 2*All-D 2nd Team Dan Majerle - a big, strong, athletic guard, a workhorse, who gives you 100% effort and hustle. Another smart defender (No, not because he's white ) He could guard T-Mac for stretches, if it is needed (Harper-Ginobili-Majerle-Bird-Howard, that would still be competent on offense). - Josh Smith - hyper-athletic player, who is a valuable team defender in my opinion. Steals.
See, my squad doesn't look bad at all inidividually, but when it comes to team defense, its strength would cover up for some individual deficiencies.
I strongly feel that my team defense should be great even judged by these all-time standards. very important point, making the rotations, being aware, helping out, switching... And the Howard-Bird-Grant front-court with guards like Manu and ThunderDan should control the defensive board, securing most of the rebounds (and then RUN). Individually, this is the way I see it. Howard or Divac (whoever is on the court) is on Ewing, that's nataural. I think, my team starts off with Grant on Durant, Bird on Rasheed, Ginobili on Penny, and Price on Battier. I fully agree with O_6 that Price is a mismatch vs Penny (but I'd like to point out: that Penny will also have a hard time against Price's amazing quickness and dribble on the other end!), I think he can be somewhat "hided" here exploiting that there is no JJ in the line-up. Battier is used mainly as a spot-up shooter (from the corner), Price can chase him, he won't be posted up too many times by Shane. The other option is - as I mentioned - bringing in Harper and let him suck Penny's blood. Yes, he still gives up a few cm's, but who doesn't? Now, Grant on Durant might seem odd, but I think it could work. He is no T-Mac, not a world-class dribbler and ball-handler, Grant is of a similar frame, really athletic, i don't see Durant beating him more off the dribble than any other defender. While Bird can easily lock down Rasheed in the post. Of course, Durant will be guarded by multiple options, to vary things up with different styles (Manu, Bird, Majerle, Smith - and yeah, King is not a good defender, but Durant isn't either ). Whenever Battier is on the court, he is guarded by a relatively weaker man-to-man perimeter defender (King or Bird - or as I mentioned even Price), so the other four can concentrate on Durant&co.
It will be a 6 or 7 games series, and will be ultimately decided by my offense and most notably Larry Bird. I just don't see O_6's offense fluid and reliable enough in this tense playoff atmosphere to hold up my team.
PC Board All Time Fantasy Draft:
PG Mark Price (92-94) SG Manu Ginobili (05-07) SF Larry Bird (84-86) PF Horace Grant (93-95) C Dwight Howard (09-11) + Bernard King (82-84) Vlade Divac (95-97) Derek Harper (88-90) Dan Majerle (91-93) Josh Smith (10-12)
Rasheed is a very good defender, I think people forget how quick he was back in his prime because of how out of shape and slow he was in his later years. He did a great job guarding KG, who was a very athletic perimeter-oriented big. I know he can guard Bird in the post but if Bird saw Sheed on him I'm pretty sure he'd choose another form of attack. Sheed is not the type of defender that can chase Bird off-ball across the court through screens. Michael Cooper and young Rodman were probably the best Bird defenders in the 80s. Guys who could chase him around and had enough length and BBIQ to contest his shots and make him work extra hard. Battier fits that type of profile.
But you're right that Bird would still get his. Battier won't shut him down but I think he's one of the better defenders you could possibly put on Bird in this project. Cooper and Rodman probably rank ahead of him, probably Pippen as well. But outside of those guys I don't think there are more than a couple of players who are more capable of guarding Bird.
I also think Grant on Durant is a mismatch for me. I feel like Grant would've done a good job guarding 80s era back to the basket SFs like Nique or King. I think Grant and McHale are similar defenders so I can see the fit between him and Bird. But that's not the type of player Durant is. Durant is an outside shooter and penetrator who doesn't rely on post ups. Because of Durant's outside shot Grant will have to play him close on the perimeter, which is going to make it very difficult for Grant to stay in front of Durant (especially with 2014 perimeter rules).
With Grant on Durant, it will also open up the lane and my PnR game (not too much because Dwight is still around). I'll use more Penny/Ewing and Penny/Sheed pick-n-rolls than originally planned because I won't have to worry about Grant defending the PnR.
Vote: O_6 in 7. Insanely close series, although I had 0_6 winning it as soon as I saw the matchup. It seems similar to my matchup against Notanoob in the first round, where all judges seemed to have their minds made up as far as result, but they all claimed that it was "extremely close". I feel the same about this matchup here. We talked with Thunder Dan about the similarities between our teams as soon as the draft ended, so I think my team would deal with O_6s squad just the same - it'd be very, very close, but he'd have won in the end. I think there are only two teams in this tournament that me and Thunder Dan can't beat - these are Notanoob's and O_6's teams. Unfortunately, here's one of them...
In my opinion, TD9 made a mistake by not giving Harper more playing time. He'd have been almost a perfect defender on Penny. 0_6 surprised me by letting Battier play almost 30 MPG, and making him a primary defender on Bird. I expected Sheed to guard Bird most of the time, especially considering that Bird wasn't a player who relied on speed or athleticism, and he has a younger version of Sheed - 27-29 years old, when he was still an excellent athlete. I also like Sheed's length against Bird. Battier guarding Bird is okay though, he's quicker and more able to bother Larry on the perimeter, and it's safer than putting Wallace on him because if Battier got into foul trouble, it wouldn't hurt his team as much as if Rasheed had to sit with early fouls in the first half.
ThunderDan9 wrote:When I read Q's comment, I almost feel I should have drafted Durant #6 and not Bird
No, it was certainly a good pick, but I was talking just about a hypothetical 1 on 1 matchup between Bird and Durant, and the fact that KD is a better man defender than Larry, so it'd give him an edge, but I obviously didn't expect you or O_6 to let that happen.
Great job both of you guys, and props for showing up to play, putting together pretty good gameplans and not losing your interest in this tournament, unlike some other guys in the earlier rounds.
Edge to 0-6 defensively, particularly in ThunderDan's bad matchup against Durant. Edge to ThunderDan in rebounding, passing, and court intelligence.
I also give the edge to ThunderDan in intangibles as Rasheed is likely to screw up at some point while Ewing and Penny aren't the most reliable playoff weapons. For me it comes down to how badly Durant goes off on Horace Grant from outside (Bird and King aren't going to be much better!). If Durant dominates, 0-6 wins this; if not, I see Dan's team pulling it out. For me, I will tentatively vote for ThunderDan, too many small edges adding up to enough to overcome Durant's mismatch.
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
I think offense is an edge for ThunderDan9 because of his greater team IQ and passing. I think that team can run a Spurs-like system and execute it better than Pop could ever dream of. I don't even think Durant's the best offensive player in this series, Bird is imo. So, as far as first options go, I like ThunderDan better here. If this was only 14 Durant, then it's a different story.
Durant, in 2 our 3 seasons here, was a weak man defender and still isn't a good help defender. I think that'll be costly when ThunderDan's perimeter play is so strong, especially on ball movement, and since he's playing the most minutes for O_6. I like O_6's interior defense, with Ewing, Rasheed, and Noah. It'll be hard for ThunderDan to score inside consistently. If he wins this series, it'll be through perimeter play and ball movement.
ThunderDan's man defense isn't the best, but he's got good team defenders and en elite defensive anchor. I see O_6's offense and ThunderDan's defense as a wash. I like ThunderDan's offense a little more than O_6's defense tho. So,
This seems like the finals to me. Every game should be in danger of going to OT. I don't feel confident in my pick at all and if this happened in reality, I'll be keeping my money out of it lol
Minutes Ewing (35) – Rasheed (7) – Noah (6) Rasheed (22) – Durant (11) – Noah (11) - McDyess (4) Durant (26) – Battier (11) – Joe J. (11) Battier (18) – DJ (18) – Joe J. (12) Penny (36) – Brandon (12)
PG: Mark Price (34), Derek Harper (14) SG: Manu Ginobili (32), Dan Majerle (16) SF: Larry Bird (24), Bernard King (22), Josh Smith (2) PF: Horace Grant (30), Larry Bird (16), Josh Smith (2) C: Dwight Howard (36), Vlade Divac (12)
These are two of the top three teams created. There are three teams that had amazing talent and fit even for an all-time league, and these are two of them. Great writeups, too.
Just some general comments...I like Noah's 17 minutes. Might have given him Dice's minutes actually, but Dice is a nice offensive threat...I like the use of DJ/Battier/JJ here in different situations....Patrick is such a great weapon in leagues like this because, as noted, he can make a dominant defender like Dwight work 1 vs. 1 AND take him out of the paint with his jumper...Sheed being able to box out helps; KD/Penny can help out on the defensive glass against that dominant offensive rebounding frontcourt...Durant will have a big series. He will go off in this series. I think he will be able to navigate around the defense enough to cause havoc elsewhere.
Manu defending Penny had to be done, but Manu is such a competitor and an underrated defender, so I like it...I can't emphasize how great a fit Horace Grant is next to Dwight; I think Dwight really can shoot 70 percent with Bird feeding him and Horace spreading the floor...Maybe could have used Derek Harper for a few more minutes. Actually, a two-point guard lineup with Price/Harper would have been interesting.
For me, it comes down to this: I think with Ewing and Sheed taking Dwight out of the paint at times and with HoGrant defending KD, the rest of 0_6's offensive players will play well. The best part of 0_6's offense for me is that it is so malleable. You can invert the offense by posting up your huge point guard, have spacing for your C, move your lead scorer into the corner to set up for 3's, or have that same lead scorer attack with amazing spacing.
It's tough because ThunderDan has such a smart team. That's a flexible offense as well thanks to Bird, Manu's playmaking, and Grant's perfect mid-range game. In the end, I think ThunderDan's defense is spread out a little more than he wants it to be.
7 games. Possible OT. Great series.
Vote: 0_6
Pay no mind to the battles you've won It'll take a lot more than rage and muscle Open your heart and hands, my son Or you'll never make it over the river
I realize I've been procrastinating on this stuff hard, and it's because I forgot how hard it was for me to come to conclusions about these things.
Both of these teams are good. ThunderDans is the one the just clicks more smoothly to me. O_6 made some well thought out points, but it just hasn't been enough to make me change my mind.
I love all the matchups across the board: Ewing vs Dwight, Sheed vs Grant, Durant vs Bird, Penny vs Price, Battier vs Price. I like O_6's bench more. Nobody on O_6's bench is as individually great as Bernard King, and you have good defensive role players like Majerle, Smith, and Divac...but I love the Noah/McDyess combo off the bench, as they can step in and you almost won't miss a beat defensively from the Ewing/Sheed combo. That's just dominant interior/PnR defense for all 48 minutes, which I don't really think you can say for ThunderDan9's team. You have length on the perimeter with Durant, Battier, DJ, and Johnson. O_6 has pretty explosive scoring off the bench in his own right with Brandon and Johnson as well.
And Durant is one of those guys that won't have the global impact of someone like Bird, but he's a guy who can at the very least outscore Bird on a consistent basis. He was lighting up even LeBron in the Finals in 2012, the worst version of Durant in this scenario. And I also think he's an underrated defender who can really affect Bird's shooting with his length. It's also really hard to see Manu have much success defending Penny, especially with Penny having a great big man and great shooters to work with.
At the end of the day, I tend to feel like O_6 has an equivalent offense to ThunderDan9, but with a better defense, so I'm going with his team.
Such great teams and terrific write-up's by both guys. Everyone else has covered this really really well and while I hate to do this and its gonna make Q mad---LArry Bird really is the deciding factor for me. I just dont see that guy on O_6's team to seize the team and lead it when times get tough. Durant may become that guy but he isnt yet and Penny and Ewing definitely arent. Talent-wise is so close, but Bird, Price, and Manu I think provide a mental edge that decides it.
Vote: ThunderDan9
ThunderBolt wrote:I’m going to let some of you in on a little secret I learned on realgm. If you don’t like a thread, not only do you not have to comment but you don’t even have to open it and read it. You’re welcome.
Texas Chuck wrote:Everyone else has covered this really really well and while I hate to do this and its gonna make Q mad---LArry Bird really is the deciding factor for me.
Nah Chuck, I don't have a problem with that. You may not know that, but I really like Bird - I just thought that 0_6 matches up a bit better with Thunder Dan, than vice versa. I can totally see how Larry could be the deciding factor. They say - "don't ever bet against prime Jordan", and I feel the same about prime Bird, plus I've made multiple statements about TD9s team being one of the best in this tournament, so it seems that he has a strong case here. To be perfectly honest, I could even see myself voting for him, if I looked at it from a different angle.
Oh, and something else about Bird - I have that tendency to be overly critical of my favorite players, or at least I'm quick to point out their weaknesses, so it might be a case with Larry Legend, too.
It's 4-3 for Thunder Dan now after your vote, so it's still far from a closed case.
On the contrary, they will absolutely ENJOY to play again after that scandalous 2nd round (non-)series. 
Scoring just easy buckets, punishing the opponent whenever Ewing or anyone inside has to help out on someone.
