Playoff scoring skillset for offensive anchors?

ceiling raiser · Post #1 » by **ceiling raiser** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:47 pm

Sorta related to the premise in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1275401 (which is itself a spin-off of this one: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1269759&start=45), but I'd like to restrict this discussion to offensive anchors who you're asking to take on a volume scoring role.

I don't really care for the term underrated, but is it possible that a go-to-scorer's ability to hit lower efficiency shots (midrange and long 2's, and post scoring) at a great volume/efficiency (relative to those for the shot types) is exactly that? I guess maybe it's just basic spacing (I've been meaning to post a discussion thread on spacing and pacing, since I've gotten some great, insightful responses in basketball theory questions I've started), but is it more than that?

Guys like Curry, KD, Lillard today (and some of the others mentioned in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1311232) are really the counter-arguments I suppose (but maybe not, since they're pulling up from the wings and straight-on, which aren't as efficient as the corners).

Perhaps I'm ranting a little and could organize my thoughts better on the topic. Just some thoughts, though.

G35 · Post #2 » by **G35** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:01 pm

I agree with this until you get to the 4th quarter. That's why big men are so valuable because they can score closer to the basket. Players like Shaq, Barkley, Hakeem, Duncan give you the opportunity to either get a basket in the painted area or get fouled.

Now when asking a perimeter oriented player to score at high volume in the playoff's you are asking a lot. You would think a team like GSW would not have a team wide shooting slump with the amount of great shooters they have on the team at every position but they do go into slumps. So when a team like GSW has all their shooters go into a slump, where are they going to find offense? It would be nice if they had Bogut who could perhaps work in the post for 2 or 3 straight possessions to shift the defense back into paint and create open looks.

I think an offensive anchor has to have a way to reliably score from 6-15 ft. It just makes it a lot harder to stop a player when they have that area of the floor as a hot spot.....

Dipper 13 · Post #3 » by **Dipper 13** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:29 pm

I think an offensive anchor has to have a way to reliably score from 6-15 ft. It just makes it a lot harder to stop a player when they have that area of the floor as a hot spot.....

This was KAJ's most effective spot with that skyhook. Below is an example of his ideal shot both across the middle and from the right side, where he could turn away from the help defense for a right-handed shot using his body as a shield.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usDqCrm0r_w&t=1m51s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usDqCrm0r_w&t=3m20s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usDqCrm0r_w&t=6m50s

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1253571

ceiling raiser · Post #4 » by **ceiling raiser** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:06 pm

G35 wrote:I agree with this until you get to the 4th quarter. That's why big men are so valuable because they can score closer to the basket. Players like Shaq, Barkley, Hakeem, Duncan give you the opportunity to either get a basket in the painted area or get fouled.

Now when asking a perimeter oriented player to score at high volume in the playoff's you are asking a lot. You would think a team like GSW would not have a team wide shooting slump with the amount of great shooters they have on the team at every position but they do go into slumps. So when a team like GSW has all their shooters go into a slump, where are they going to find offense? It would be nice if they had Bogut who could perhaps work in the post for 2 or 3 straight possessions to shift the defense back into paint and create open looks.

I think an offensive anchor has to have a way to reliably score from 6-15 ft. It just makes it a lot harder to stop a player when they have that area of the floor as a hot spot.....

I agree 100%. FTR, I wasn't suggesting that this is not the case because of the spot up 3pt shooters (I just mentioned them as an aside because I'm sure they'll be brought up

). I do think you need to be able to score reliably in that range (6-15 feet), and the mid-range & post game are how you're going to do so.

Dipper 13 wrote:
I think an offensive anchor has to have a way to reliably score from 6-15 ft. It just makes it a lot harder to stop a player when they have that area of the floor as a hot spot.....

This was KAJ's most effective spot with that skyhook. Below is an example of his ideal shot both across the middle and from the right side, where he could turn away from the help defense for a right-handed shot using his body as a shield.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usDqCrm0r_w&t=1m51s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usDqCrm0r_w&t=3m20s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usDqCrm0r_w&t=6m50s

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1253571

Great stuff on Kareem. Sort of off-topic, but do you know much about Lanier's post game? I've been trying to find out more of his post game (I've discussed him briefly with Odinn/CavsFTW/LAZ/pointguard on ISH after shaqattack suggested recently in a thread that he might've been dominant down low). It seems there are only a few games of him in his prime out there:

Oct 25, 1974 Detroit LA Lakers 110-107
Apr 18, 1976 R1 3 Detroit Milwaukee 107-104
Apr 24, 1976 QF 3 Golden State Detroit 113-96
Apr 30, 1976 QF 6 Golden State Detroit 118-116
Apr 17, 1977 R1 3 Detroit Golden State 101-109
Jan 15, 1978 Chicago Detroit 107-101
Jan 22, 1978 Detroit New Orleans 97-100
Jan 29, 1978 Cleveland Detroit 116-120

FreeChef · Post #5 » by **FreeChef** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:17 pm

Getting good looks at the rim, by dribble penetration or post play. When the game slows down and everyone's a bit tight, the players who can consistently break down defenses, particularly interior defenses, make good things happen out of the half court.

Dipper 13 · Post #6 » by **Dipper 13** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:19 pm

Oct 25, 1974 Detroit LA Lakers 110-107
Apr 18, 1976 R1 3 Detroit Milwaukee 107-104
Apr 24, 1976 QF 3 Golden State Detroit 113-96
Apr 30, 1976 QF 6 Golden State Detroit 118-116
Apr 17, 1977 R1 3 Detroit Golden State 101-109
Jan 15, 1978 Chicago Detroit 107-101
Jan 22, 1978 Detroit New Orleans 97-100
Jan 29, 1978 Cleveland Detroit 116-120

I have not seen any of these games, though I do recall Chaney in an interview saying Lanier's hook shot was as effective as KAJ.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOPvT4uJPaM[/youtube]

ceiling raiser · Post #7 » by **ceiling raiser** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:27 pm

FreeChef wrote:Getting good looks at the rim, by dribble penetration or post play. When the game slows down and everyone's a bit tight, the players who can consistently break down defenses, particularly interior defenses, make good things happen out of the half court.

Is driving to the basket a reliable strategy in the playoffs though? I'm not sure if the numbers support this, but it seems you're not going to get the foul call as often in the postseason as a star player driving to the basket (maybe there's been research on this), especially when you have defenses designed to prevent penetration (as well as passes inside, scoring off of offensive boards, etc.). Does attacking the basket pay off in the playoffs against good defenses in today's NBA?

RSCD3_ · Post #8 » by **RSCD3_** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:34 pm

fpliii wrote:
FreeChef wrote:Getting good looks at the rim, by dribble penetration or post play. When the game slows down and everyone's a bit tight, the players who can consistently break down defenses, particularly interior defenses, make good things happen out of the half court.

Is driving to the basket a reliable strategy in the playoffs though? I'm not sure if the numbers support this, but it seems you're not going to get the foul call as often in the postseason as a star player driving to the basket (maybe there's been research on this), especially when you have defenses designed to prevent penetration (as well as passes inside, scoring off of offensive boards, etc.). Does attacking the basket pay off in the playoffs against good defenses in today's NBA?

Before thibs defensive strategry was widespread penetration was far more reliable. LeBron james got to the line a heck of a lot in 2009 playoffs by mostly relentless penetration. Nowadays a player of similiar explosive ability would run into more players at the rim and in the paint.

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FreeChef · Post #9 » by **FreeChef** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:01 pm

fpliii wrote:
FreeChef wrote:Getting good looks at the rim, by dribble penetration or post play. When the game slows down and everyone's a bit tight, the players who can consistently break down defenses, particularly interior defenses, make good things happen out of the half court.

Is driving to the basket a reliable strategy in the playoffs though? I'm not sure if the numbers support this, but it seems you're not going to get the foul call as often in the postseason as a star player driving to the basket (maybe there's been research on this), especially when you have defenses designed to prevent penetration (as well as passes inside, scoring off of offensive boards, etc.). Does attacking the basket pay off in the playoffs against good defenses in today's NBA?

Well, one does not need to dribble just to find a shot or foul (a la Harden). The important thing is to get into the lane to force rotations and to contract defenses. You just want defenders to move. Probing is good. You just don't want to pull up for jumpers every time down the court (a la Westbrook). Jumpers should come off inside-out action.

And dribble penetration doesn't have to start from a standstill at the top of the key. Offenses like the Spurs run Parker through multiple screens before hitting him with a pass on the move whereupon he can explore options off the dribble.

Overall the ball must find the paint. Good things happen.