RealGM Top 100 List #6
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RealGM Top 100 List #6
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RealGM Top 100 List #6
Rules: Vote for 1 player. You may change your vote as consensus emerges but if so, go back and EDIT YOUR ORIGINAL POST. Votes without analysis will not be counted. If, after 2 days, there is not a majority consensus, the top; 2 nominees will have a 1 day runoff election to determine the spot on our list. NBA/ABA only, no college, international play, ABL, NBL, BAA or other pre-NBA play considered.
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6
Hakeem is my pick again (but I'm open to Shaq, KG, and others). Fortunately, I'll have more time to watch tape and read up on him. My post from the last thread with reasoning:
fpliii wrote:Hakeem is my vote as well. I've been watching as much tape as I can of his playoffs post-86 run and pre-peak, and he seems incredibly active defensively. Posts by fatal9, 90salldecade, and others have been very helpful in fleshing out Hakeem's pre-peak years. I feel like I have a pretty decent sense of where his game was at for those seasons. Regarding his "peak" play, there's not much to say. His rebounding wasn't as impressive as it was in the preceding seasons, and while it seems (need to watch more regular season games) he's not as active consistently on the defensive end as he was in the 80s, his floor game is very disciplined. Not much wasted motion, and he was a threat to every player on the floor, for every possession.
I'm not sure where I'd place his peak defensively, but it probably would be a few years removed from his offensive peak (which, for the record, was certainly enabled by Olajuwon's renewed commitment and Rudy T's offensive philosophies and schemes). Dipper 13's breakdown was a huge help, and allowed me to skim through games again, with some datapoints to keep in mind. Hakeem was tremendous a in the post and with his midrange jumper, two shots that will generally be there against top playoff defenses (trainwreckog left an impression on me a few months ago with this discussion, from a game theoretic POV it makes sense), and Hakeem was a great passer so you can't key in on him too much. As tsherkin said earlier in this thread, I don't think Hakeem would have to change a thing today.
I considered KG at this spot (and probably will continue to do so in the next thread), because of the strong RAPM argument and some of the points ElGee made a few pages ago (I think it is indeed possible that KG had a superior defensive floor game to Olajuwon, but I need to watch a ton more tape to get an idea). I would definitely like to see RAPM numbers for 01 and 02 produced from complete datasets (since at the very least, we know J.E.'s missing chunks of the first couple of seasons, possibly more); if someone is interested in parsing the play-by-plays to produce complete matchup files for their RAPM calculations, it would be an incredible asset to the community. Duncan was also a consideration, with his mobility, ability to create from the post, and great paint protection. I keep going back and forth on him and KG, not sure who I'd pick between the two of them.
I looked at Shaq here (who I expect to be voted in), and while I think he has an excellent case, defensive inconsistency is a huge deal for me. I understand that this would be a concern with Wilt, my pick at #4 as well, but the playoff defensive numbers seemed more consistent for Chamberlain, and he was always a willing rebounder; I do think that Shaq was the superior scorer to Wilt—in no small part due to his commitment to the power game, which Chamberlain did not demonstrate consistently over the course of his career— and a very capable passer, but the rebounding/paint protection was big for me. Again, he's certainly a good choice here though.
Admittedly I probably didn't consider Bird/Oscar/Magic here enough, but longevity has become a pretty big deal for me recently. I think LeBron has a strong case as well, but I just have great difficulty considering wings when there are still dominant bigs on the board. True, MJ was voted in at number 1, and while I think he is one of two players with a strong GOAT case (Russ being the other, they were 1-2 in my pre-project list), I'm somewhat relieved he didn't fall to a lower spot, because I'm not sure at what point I'd pick him over a center. I'm also a little confused as to why Kobe has been mentioned so often in this thread, but I think it was mostly peripheral discussion (like my exchange regarding RAPM last thread, apologies again for derailing), so I'm not as concerned. In general though, if we're going to elect a guy on the basis of scoring (and I know that's not his entire game, but it's a huge part of it), IMO we certainly have to take into account whether a guy was the first option, and what his role was on the offensive side of the ball.
Now that's the difference between first and last place.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6
Who won #5?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6
I'm likely voting for Shaq here, but also thinking Magic. Other dark horse candidates are Lebron and Bird.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6
I'm voting for Shaq. Best playoff performer, finals performer, and most clutch player left on the board
Prime:
Shaq's 6 year prime is right up there with MJ. 98-03, Shaq was the best player in the league every year of that span with the exception of 99.
Regular season:
28.1 PPG
11.8 Reb
3.1 AST
2.8 Turnovers
2.4 Blk
.577 FG%
.585 TS%
29.9 PER
.255 WS/48
He lead the league in PER and FG% every year from 98-02
Postseason:
29.3 PPG
13.7 Reb
3.0 AST
2.4 BLK
.554 FG%
.565 TS%
29.6 PER
.228 WS/48
During the 3peat years he averaged 30-15-3, .55 FG%, 29.3 PER (that's right, his PER was better outside the 3 peat years than during them)
Playoff prime
Shaq's playoff prime was amazing. From 95-04, Shaq averaged 27-13-3, 56 FG%. Amazing when you consider that according to ElGee, Shaq faced the toughest postseason defensive slate of any superstar of the past 25 years.
Peak:
In this thread I made the case for Shaq having the GOAT peak in 2000. 2000 was Shaq's defensive peak and possibly his best offensive year.
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1236093
RAPM:
Shaq has not only dominated in box score stats, he also fares well in plus/minus stats especially on offense.
2001: 2nd (1st in offense)
2002: 1st (1st in offense, 4th in defense, ahead of Duncan and D-Rob)
2003: 3rd (1st in offense)
2004: 1st (1st in offense, 26th in defense)
2005: 3rd (5th in offense)
2006: 5th (5th in offense)
Missed games:
Shaq missed a lot of games in his prime, but the missed games did a lot to show his impact. His teams were consistently worse without him than with him. He has a big enough missed game sample size to accurately gauge his impact.
SRS
From 93-06, Shaq’s teams were a weighted 5.81 SRS in the games he played, and a 1.22 SRS in the games he missed for a total impact of 4.60 SRS. His teams were 97-78 (.554) in the games he missed. His teams played 45.5 win pace in the games he missed and a 59.8 win pace in the games he played (+14.4 win impact).
Kobe vs Shaq
The games that Shaq and Kobe missed from 1998-2004 showed which guy was more important to the success of the team. The Lakers were mediocre without Shaq, but in the games Kobe missed, they didn’t miss a beat.
Games Kobe missed and Shaq played in, 98-04:
28-6 (.824, 68 win pace)
5.90 SRS
Games Shaq missed, 98-04:
33-31 (.516, 42 win pace)
0.58 SRS
01-04 plus/minus stats:
Shaq/Kobe on court: +9.2 points per 100 possessions
Shaq, no Kobe: +5.2 per 100
Kobe, no Shaq: -2.9 per 100
No Shaq or Kobe: -7.3 per 100
Playoffs:
Shaq/Kobe on court: +7.9 per 100
Shaq, no Kobe: -3.7 per 100
Kobe, no Shaq: -13.4 per 100
No Shaq or Kobe: -10 per 100
Finals:
Shaq put up one of the most impressive stat ever in the finals. In the finals, Shaq had at least 25-10 and 52 FG% in every single game of his first 20 finals games. Shaq didn't average 25-10 and 52 FG% in that 20 game finals run, he put those numbers in every single finals game. He had 0 bad finals games until 2006. Here are his numbers in his first 20 finals games
34.2 PPG, 60.3 FG%, .601 TS%, 14.5 Reb, 4.0 AST, 2.8 BLK
In the finals during the 3peat years, he averaged 36-15-4, 3 blk, 60 FG%. He put 30-10 in 13 out of 15 3 peat finals games (including every game of Nets and Pacers series).
Shaq vs Elite centers
Shaq dominated every single great center he faced head to head. That includes Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Zo, Daughtery, and Ben Wallace.
Warning: long read in spoiler tags
Defense
More on Shaq's Defense
Here are some facts from Hoopsstats.com. Here are the best opposing Center PPG and FG% defense since hoopsstats started collecting the stat (from 1998-2013)
Top opponent Center PPG defense from 98-13:
06 Heat: 12.8 PPG (Shaq)
04 Lakers: 12.9 PPG (Shaq)
06 Jazz: 12.9 PPG
Top opponent Center FG% defense from 98-13:
00 Lakers: 40.7 FG% (Shaq)
99 Spurs: 41.1 FG% (Duncan/Robinson)
99 Hawks: 41.9 FG% (Mutombo)
Shaq’s teams finished #1 in 00 and 05, #2 in 01, 02 and #3 in 98 and 06.
Playoff Defense:
Shaq has also played really good man defense in the playoffs. He has quite a few notable series where he limits the efficiency of his opponents:
Prime:
Shaq's 6 year prime is right up there with MJ. 98-03, Shaq was the best player in the league every year of that span with the exception of 99.
Regular season:
28.1 PPG
11.8 Reb
3.1 AST
2.8 Turnovers
2.4 Blk
.577 FG%
.585 TS%
29.9 PER
.255 WS/48
He lead the league in PER and FG% every year from 98-02
Postseason:
29.3 PPG
13.7 Reb
3.0 AST
2.4 BLK
.554 FG%
.565 TS%
29.6 PER
.228 WS/48
During the 3peat years he averaged 30-15-3, .55 FG%, 29.3 PER (that's right, his PER was better outside the 3 peat years than during them)
Playoff prime
Shaq's playoff prime was amazing. From 95-04, Shaq averaged 27-13-3, 56 FG%. Amazing when you consider that according to ElGee, Shaq faced the toughest postseason defensive slate of any superstar of the past 25 years.
Peak:
In this thread I made the case for Shaq having the GOAT peak in 2000. 2000 was Shaq's defensive peak and possibly his best offensive year.
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1236093
RAPM:
Shaq has not only dominated in box score stats, he also fares well in plus/minus stats especially on offense.
2001: 2nd (1st in offense)
2002: 1st (1st in offense, 4th in defense, ahead of Duncan and D-Rob)
2003: 3rd (1st in offense)
2004: 1st (1st in offense, 26th in defense)
2005: 3rd (5th in offense)
2006: 5th (5th in offense)
Missed games:
Shaq missed a lot of games in his prime, but the missed games did a lot to show his impact. His teams were consistently worse without him than with him. He has a big enough missed game sample size to accurately gauge his impact.
SRS
Code: Select all
Year w/o With diff
1993 -12.02 1.52 13.54
1994 -2.24 3.75 5.99
1995 -2.85 6.72 9.57
1996 2.60 6.85 4.25
1997 1.63 4.41 2.78
1998 3.66 8.06 4.40
1999 -8.17 2.90 11.07
2000 -11.16 9.15 20.31
2001 2.59 3.86 1.28
2002 1.49 8.42 6.93
2003 -2.97 3.98 6.96
2004 3.34 4.58 1.23
2005 2.97 6.10 3.14
2006 -0.07 5.02 5.08
From 93-06, Shaq’s teams were a weighted 5.81 SRS in the games he played, and a 1.22 SRS in the games he missed for a total impact of 4.60 SRS. His teams were 97-78 (.554) in the games he missed. His teams played 45.5 win pace in the games he missed and a 59.8 win pace in the games he played (+14.4 win impact).
Kobe vs Shaq
The games that Shaq and Kobe missed from 1998-2004 showed which guy was more important to the success of the team. The Lakers were mediocre without Shaq, but in the games Kobe missed, they didn’t miss a beat.
Games Kobe missed and Shaq played in, 98-04:
28-6 (.824, 68 win pace)
5.90 SRS
Games Shaq missed, 98-04:
33-31 (.516, 42 win pace)
0.58 SRS
01-04 plus/minus stats:
Shaq/Kobe on court: +9.2 points per 100 possessions
Shaq, no Kobe: +5.2 per 100
Kobe, no Shaq: -2.9 per 100
No Shaq or Kobe: -7.3 per 100
Playoffs:
Shaq/Kobe on court: +7.9 per 100
Shaq, no Kobe: -3.7 per 100
Kobe, no Shaq: -13.4 per 100
No Shaq or Kobe: -10 per 100
Finals:
Shaq put up one of the most impressive stat ever in the finals. In the finals, Shaq had at least 25-10 and 52 FG% in every single game of his first 20 finals games. Shaq didn't average 25-10 and 52 FG% in that 20 game finals run, he put those numbers in every single finals game. He had 0 bad finals games until 2006. Here are his numbers in his first 20 finals games
34.2 PPG, 60.3 FG%, .601 TS%, 14.5 Reb, 4.0 AST, 2.8 BLK
In the finals during the 3peat years, he averaged 36-15-4, 3 blk, 60 FG%. He put 30-10 in 13 out of 15 3 peat finals games (including every game of Nets and Pacers series).
Shaq vs Elite centers
Shaq dominated every single great center he faced head to head. That includes Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Zo, Daughtery, and Ben Wallace.
Warning: long read in spoiler tags
Spoiler:
Defense
More on Shaq's Defense
Here are some facts from Hoopsstats.com. Here are the best opposing Center PPG and FG% defense since hoopsstats started collecting the stat (from 1998-2013)
Top opponent Center PPG defense from 98-13:
06 Heat: 12.8 PPG (Shaq)
04 Lakers: 12.9 PPG (Shaq)
06 Jazz: 12.9 PPG
Top opponent Center FG% defense from 98-13:
00 Lakers: 40.7 FG% (Shaq)
99 Spurs: 41.1 FG% (Duncan/Robinson)
99 Hawks: 41.9 FG% (Mutombo)
Shaq’s teams finished #1 in 00 and 05, #2 in 01, 02 and #3 in 98 and 06.
Spoiler:
Playoff Defense:
Shaq has also played really good man defense in the playoffs. He has quite a few notable series where he limits the efficiency of his opponents:
Spoiler:
Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6
Considering that bigs seem to be favored in this project, it might be time to copy and revive the arguments for Karl Malome last project that got him voted in at #12 last project
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6
Purch wrote:Considering that bigs seem to be favored in this project, it might be time to copy and revive the arguments for Karl Malome last project that got him voted in at #12 last project
There's no way he gets voted that high this time around. Id be shocked if he made top 15.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6
Basketballefan wrote:Purch wrote:Considering that bigs seem to be favored in this project, it might be time to copy and revive the arguments for Karl Malome last project that got him voted in at #12 last project
There's no way he gets voted that high this time around. Id be shocked if he made top 15.
Who knows..I don't understand this forums trends. 5 months ago Wilt was getting massively underrated, and the past 2 months Garnett's been getting overrated. It's really hard to predict the perception posters will have on a player at a given time
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6
For those questioning Shaq's defense and saying how he never played on good defenses.
Here is a list of NBA players who played on the best defenses
Rk Player TmDef (relative to league average)
7 Tim Duncan -5.60
94 Shaquille O'Neal -2.22
96 Kevin Garnett -2.16
203 Hakeem Olajuwon -1.11
If you pay close attention you will see that Shaq's teams played better defense than Hakeem or KG's teams yet no one seems to question their defense.
Here is a list of NBA players who played on the best defenses
Rk Player TmDef (relative to league average)
7 Tim Duncan -5.60
94 Shaquille O'Neal -2.22
96 Kevin Garnett -2.16
203 Hakeem Olajuwon -1.11
If you pay close attention you will see that Shaq's teams played better defense than Hakeem or KG's teams yet no one seems to question their defense.
Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6
I'll be voting Hakeem here and will be sharing analysis why over time.
Regardless of the vote, I'll do my best to address and contribute whatever new data or perspectives I can. I'll still advocate, but this will become mostly academic comparisons for other's benefit if they find value in it.
Here's my reasons in the previous thread. I'll be going into new info as well in this thread as much as possible.
Impact Data for Hakeem, from Dipper 13:
Regardless of the vote, I'll do my best to address and contribute whatever new data or perspectives I can. I'll still advocate, but this will become mostly academic comparisons for other's benefit if they find value in it.
Here's my reasons in the previous thread. I'll be going into new info as well in this thread as much as possible.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Impact Data for Hakeem, from Dipper 13:
Dipper 13 wrote:
58 Games Total
http://i.imgur.com/VjNycWs.png
1992-93: 10 games
1993-94: 26 games
1994-95: 22 games
Shot ChartSpoiler:
Synergy OffenseSpoiler:
Team PerformanceSpoiler:
Man DefenseSpoiler:
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1330591
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6
Basketballefan wrote:Who won #5?
Tim Duncan. So now the discussion moves on to what I suspect will become Shaq v.s Magic.
Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6
colts18 wrote:For those questioning Shaq's defense and saying how he never played on good defenses.
Here is a list of NBA players who played on the best defenses
Rk Player TmDef (relative to league average)
7 Tim Duncan -5.60
94 Shaquille O'Neal -2.22
96 Kevin Garnett -2.16
203 Hakeem Olajuwon -1.11
If you pay close attention you will see that Shaq's teams played better defense than Hakeem or KG's teams yet no one seems to question their defense.
Has your stance on Malone and Garnett changed since last project ?
colts18 wrote:Here is my Malone vs. KG case.
Here are there numbers through age 34:
Malone: 26.2 PPG, 10.7 Reb, .583 TS%, 3.3 Ast, 24.1 PER, .207 WS/48
Garnett: 19.5 PPG, 10.7 Reb, .549 TS%, 4.1 Ast, 23.5 PER, .191 WS/48
Playoffs:
Malone: 26.9 PPG, 11.4 Reb, 2.9 Ast, .532 TS%, 22.3 PER, .154 WS/48
Garnett: 19.6 PPG, 11.1 Reb, 3.8 Ast, .519 TS%, 21.7 PER, .151 WS/48
Malone had a few solid years after this including an MVP season. KG is already declining rapidly.
All-NBA:
Malone: 14 All-NBA (11 first team)
Garnett: 9 All-NBA (4 first team)
MVP:
Malone: 2 MVP, 14 top 10, 9 Top 5, 5 Top 3
Garnett: 1 MVP, 7 Top 10, 5 Top 5, 4 Top 3
Head to Head:
Malone: 24.5 PPG, 8.8 Reb, 4.1 AST, 51.7 FG%
Garnett: 19.3 PPG, 10.0 Reb, 3.6 AST, 46.8 FG%
NBA Finals:
Malone- 24.4 PPG, 10.4 Reb, 3.7 AST, 47.3 FG%, .517 TS%
Garnett- 16.6 PPG, 9.0 Reb, 3.0 AST, 46.6 FG%, .509 TS%
You can't use the age excuse because Malone went to the Finals in his age 33 and 34 season while KG went in his 31 and 33. Malone did this while being guarded by one of the best defenders in history. Pau Gasol is no Dennis Rodman. Malone drew 2.2x more FT than KG in 1 less game.
One of the reasons I have Malone ahead is because of the significant offensive advantage. Big part is FT. Malone drew about 2x more FT than KG does. Not only does he rack up FT, but he forces his opponent into the penalty early helping his teammates out. All the KG supporter fail to mention his embarrassing track record at drawing FT.
RealGM Top 100 List #6
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RealGM Top 100 List #6
MY VOTE FOR #6 IS Shaquille O'Neal
He was an incredible player who warped offenses like no other. His dominance in the paint due to size and coordination and his passing ability led to a player that was incredibly help to building an offense. He also drew many fouls which helped the lakers opponents get in the bonus.
His defense ability is fluid because of peaks and valleys but because of his size he could always be an intimidation to drives and a fairly capable shot blocker.
He has one of the GOAT peaks (2000) and IMO the greatest finals series of all time. Even accounting injuries during his lengthy prime (93-05) he was ready for the playoffs in almost all seasons.
People will say that he didn't get along with his teammates and had a brooding attitude but he still had a tremendous impact and other than the Kobe Shaq spat, the other issues were overdone.
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He was an incredible player who warped offenses like no other. His dominance in the paint due to size and coordination and his passing ability led to a player that was incredibly help to building an offense. He also drew many fouls which helped the lakers opponents get in the bonus.
His defense ability is fluid because of peaks and valleys but because of his size he could always be an intimidation to drives and a fairly capable shot blocker.
He has one of the GOAT peaks (2000) and IMO the greatest finals series of all time. Even accounting injuries during his lengthy prime (93-05) he was ready for the playoffs in almost all seasons.
People will say that he didn't get along with his teammates and had a brooding attitude but he still had a tremendous impact and other than the Kobe Shaq spat, the other issues were overdone.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6
My stance on KG certainly changed since then (that was 3 years ago). I'm higher on him now then I was back then. Since then KG also had his 2012 season where he was a top 10 player (even if that was a weak year). I have both of them in the 11-15 range. I will evaluate them more later on but as of right now I probably have KG slightly ahead.Purch wrote:colts18 wrote:For those questioning Shaq's defense and saying how he never played on good defenses.
Here is a list of NBA players who played on the best defenses
Rk Player TmDef (relative to league average)
7 Tim Duncan -5.60
94 Shaquille O'Neal -2.22
96 Kevin Garnett -2.16
203 Hakeem Olajuwon -1.11
If you pay close attention you will see that Shaq's teams played better defense than Hakeem or KG's teams yet no one seems to question their defense.
Has your stance on Malone and Garnett changed since last project ?
Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6
Still leaning towards Magic.
Best players at each position left. PF spot is a moshpit.
PG - Magic
SG - Kobe
SF - Lebron/Bird
PF - Malone/Dirk/Barkley/KG/Petitt
C - Shaq/Hakeem
Best players at each position left. PF spot is a moshpit.
PG - Magic
SG - Kobe
SF - Lebron/Bird
PF - Malone/Dirk/Barkley/KG/Petitt
C - Shaq/Hakeem
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6
UBF, I didn't call you on this before, but I'm going to now. "Best players at their position" is an obviously flawed way to look at things. The next ten best players might all have played the same position. It looks to me like you're just using that analysis so you can mention Kobe (especially since you have Kobe all alone at the SG spot, but you bring up Pettit at the PF spot! Pettit is a lot further away from guys like KG and Malone than Kobe is from guys like Drexler, Gervin, Wade, T-Mac or D.Wilkins).
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6
I'll start with a first point.
Hakeem played Shaq from ages 30-39. He was already thirty when 20 year old Shaq entered the league. Hakeem's dominant athletic years were in the 80's, his defensive prime was ending at around age 32 and offensive prime at about age 33.
To use career head to head numbers during this entire span post prime in this fashion is misleading imo.
For example, using head to head in that fashion Dwight Howard arguably outplays Shaq who retired a year younger than Olajuwon.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... =howardw01
Hakeem played Shaq from ages 30-39. He was already thirty when 20 year old Shaq entered the league. Hakeem's dominant athletic years were in the 80's, his defensive prime was ending at around age 32 and offensive prime at about age 33.
To use career head to head numbers during this entire span post prime in this fashion is misleading imo.
For example, using head to head in that fashion Dwight Howard arguably outplays Shaq who retired a year younger than Olajuwon.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... =howardw01
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6
90sAllDecade wrote:I'll start with a first point.
Hakeem played Shaq from ages 30-39. He was already thirty when 20 year old Shaq entered the league. Hakeem's dominant athletic years were in the 80's, his defensive prime was ending at around age 32 and offensive prime at about age 33.
Shaq was still outplaying Hakeem head to head when Hakeem was an all-star caliber player
vs. Hakeem 93-99, 14 games:
Expected: 22.4 PPG, 51.6 FG%
Actual: 20.3 PPG, 45.3 FG%
Shaq's numbers:
Expected: 23.7 PPG, 57.8 FG%
Actual: 20.1 PPG, 57.4 FG%
Playoffs:
vs. Hakeem, 8 games:
Expected: 22.3 PPG, 51.6 FG%
Actual: 21.9 PPG, 46.5 FG%
Shaq's numbers:
Expected: 24.3 PPG, 57.8 FG%
Actual: 25.2 PPG, 55.6 FG%
Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6
Will once again vote Magic Johnson below is my reasoning from before.
Arguably the greatest offensive player of all time, great leader, great winner, made his teammates better than anyone ever imo.
5 time champion, 3 of which he was the undisputed best player, 3 time MVP, 12 time all star, 4 time assist leader, 9 All nba first team selection etc
Great playoff performer beat some all time great teams such as Bird's Celtics and the Bad boy pistons, Avged 20 8 12 over his 13 year playoff career. Wins his first championship and FMVP as a rookie putting up 18 11 9 in the playoffs, with an incredible 42 15 7 game 6 clinching performance as Kareem goes down with injury and he jumps center.
Had Magic not got HIV he would've had a longer career and could've been in discussion for top 2 or even GOAT.
Knocks on magic usually consist of his longevity and his defense. Magic wasn't a great defender but i don't think he was a negative on that end and for his longevity its not great but not horrible, 13 years and he accomplished so much in that span and changed the game.
Arguably the greatest offensive player of all time, great leader, great winner, made his teammates better than anyone ever imo.
5 time champion, 3 of which he was the undisputed best player, 3 time MVP, 12 time all star, 4 time assist leader, 9 All nba first team selection etc
Great playoff performer beat some all time great teams such as Bird's Celtics and the Bad boy pistons, Avged 20 8 12 over his 13 year playoff career. Wins his first championship and FMVP as a rookie putting up 18 11 9 in the playoffs, with an incredible 42 15 7 game 6 clinching performance as Kareem goes down with injury and he jumps center.
Had Magic not got HIV he would've had a longer career and could've been in discussion for top 2 or even GOAT.
Knocks on magic usually consist of his longevity and his defense. Magic wasn't a great defender but i don't think he was a negative on that end and for his longevity its not great but not horrible, 13 years and he accomplished so much in that span and changed the game.
Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #6
Basketballefan wrote:Will once again vote Magic Johnson below is my reasoning from before.
Arguably the greatest offensive player of all time, great leader, great winner, made his teammates better than anyone ever imo.
5 time champion, 3 of which he was the undisputed best player, 3 time MVP, 12 time all star, 4 time assist leader, 9 All nba first team selection etc
Great playoff performer beat some all time great teams such as Bird's Celtics and the Bad boy pistons, Avged 20 8 12 over his 13 year playoff career. Wins his first championship and FMVP as a rookie putting up 18 11 9 in the playoffs, with an incredible 42 15 7 game 6 clinching performance as Kareem goes down with injury and he jumps center.
Had Magic not got HIV he would've had a longer career and could've been in discussion for top 2 or even GOAT.
Knocks on magic usually consist of his longevity and his defense. Magic wasn't a great defender but i don't think he was a negative on that end and for his longevity its not great but not horrible, 13 years and he accomplished so much in that span and changed the game.
Which 3?
Now that's the difference between first and last place.