RealGM Top 100 List #7

[penbeast0]

Rules: Vote for 1 player. You may change your vote as consensus emerges but if so, go back and EDIT YOUR ORIGINAL POST. Votes without analysis will not be counted. If, after 2 days, there is not a majority consensus, the top; 2 nominees will have a 1 day runoff election to determine the spot on our list. NBA/ABA only, no college, international play, ABL, NBL, BAA or other pre-NBA play considered.

[penbeast0]

Magic, LeBron, Hakeem, Garnett . . . wondering if anyone else is going to get any traction. I have traditionally had Hakeem in this spot but the arguments for LeBron having an equal peak and a longer, higher, more consistent prime that people have been offering are pretty convincing. I also admire LeBron's on-court leadership qualities (Hakeem is one of the most admirable stars with his work to help African charities in terms of off-court); though once Hakeem learned the passing and focused, I believe he created more for his teammates in his peak (Otis Thorpe, Kenny Smith, and Mario Elie were among the most efficient scorers in the NBA in 93-95-- not a coincidence). This one is still pretty close for me, but I'm voting LeBron until convinced otherwise.

[colts18]

Once Magic is picked, I will make a LeBron post most likely focusing on his defense.

[Texas Chuck]

Once Magic is picked, I will make a LeBron post most likely focusing on his defense.

if the post is of value once Magic is picked, its of value now. Why would you wait?

[colts18]

Once Magic is picked, I will make a LeBron post most likely focusing on his defense.

if the post is of value once Magic is picked, its of value now. Why would you wait?

I'm waiting until LeBron is in the discussion.

[Texas Chuck]

Once Magic is picked, I will make a LeBron post most likely focusing on his defense.

if the post is of value once Magic is picked, its of value now. Why would you wait?

I'm waiting until LeBron is in the discussion.

he's already been in the discussion.

[Mutnt]

LeBron is in the discussion, and I think I'll be going with him

WHY?

EDIT: This isn't an official vote cast, so I'm not obliged to explain anything. I merely answered colts the same way a lot of other posters replied. Queue the jitters, slick.

[JordansBulls]

Here are the players that have a shot at this spot and there records while having the HCA.

Code: Select all

 vs 50 win teams/non-50 win teams 
Magic:    9-2 (82%)/   20-1 (95%)
Bird:     10-6 (63%)/  14-1 (93%)
Olajuwon: 4-0 (100%)/  5-2 (71%)
Lebron:   3-3 (50%)/   15-0 (100%)
Kobe       18-2 (90%) / 7-0  (100%)


Magic 29-3 with HCA
Bird 24-7 with HCA
Hakeem 9-2 with HCA (amazing he only had so few series with HCA)
Lebron 18-3 with HCA
Kobe 25-2 with HCA

Code: Select all

Playoff Series Record with HCA against teams with a +2 SRS:
Magic 80-91'14-2 87.5%
Bird 80-91' 13-5 72.2%



Playoff Series Record with HCA against teams with a +4 SRS:
Magic 80-91'4-1 80.0%
Bird 80-91' 6-5 54.5%


Here are those guys without HCA

Code: Select all

 
              Road(50+)/non-50
Magic:        3-4 / 0-0 
Olajuwon:     7-8 / 1-1
Bird:         0-4 / 0-0
Kobe:         5-5 / 0-0
Lebron:      2-3 /0-0


Finished top 3 in MVP for 9x times which is the 2nd most in NBA History. Has 3 league mvp's, 3 finals mvp's, only other players with that was MJ and Russell would have that if finals mvp's existed at the time.

Vote: Magic Johnson

[DQuinn1575]

My case against Magic:



1986

Magic missed 10 games, but the last one was the last game of the season where the Lakers rested all their stars.

So, 72 games with, 9 games without Magic

Pts/Poss/PPP

8451/7556/1.118
1063/958/1.110


5 home games/4 away in the 9 - Average DRtg of the teams was 108.0 vs 107.2 league average

So, 111.8 - 107.2 = 4.6 with
111- 108.0 = 3.0 without

Making it 1.6 per 100 possessions better with Magic






1984 - He played 67 games, 36 home and 31 away. So he missed 5 home and 10 away.

67 games played - outscored opponents by 288 points - say 4 point hca * 5 games = 268 points


268/67 = 4.0 Plus with Magic

15 games not played - outscored opponents by 20 points - add 4 point hca * 5 games = 40 points


40/15 = 2.7 Plus without Magic


1.3 ppg (not adjusted for opponents- being lazy) difference

Not exactly greatest of all-time stuff

[DQuinn1575]

Bird and Magic. Followed them from the beginning - since days of Indiana University recruit and Michigan high school superstar.




By year:



Bird 274 MVP 1st place votes as best player in league

Magic 168.5 MVP 1st place votes as best player in league


1980 - Bird clearly better - Team improved by 32 games over prior year.
Magic not all-league - has spectular game 6 in final

1981 - Bird clearly better - Magic hurt and has awful playoff series

1982 - Bird clearly better - 2nd in MVP voting - Magic receives 1st MVP votes

1983-1986 - Bird better each season; MVP 3 times in a row - 1984-1986 Bird is best player in the game.


1987 - Magic better - leader of what might be best team ever. Questionable who the best player in the game is - Magic,Bird,Jordan

1988- Bird slightly better - At this point Jordan is definitely best player in the game.

1989-1991 Magic clearly better

1992/1996 One each for what it's worth


So Bird 3 clearly betters, 6 betters
Magic 3 clearly betters, 2 better

Bird best player in basketball for 3 years - Magic may be best player for 1 year.


All the time they played most considered Bird the superior.

I don't know if the opinion changed with this board, or if it happened earlier.

My only question is whether LeBron has surpassed Bird and Magic yet.

[shutupandjam]

Rehash of a post I made in support of LeBron a couple threads ago:

He has been the clear best player in the league for longer than anyone since Jordan. He has 4 MVPs (only the top 4 on this list have more, no one else has as many) and 2 Finals MVPs.

He's probably the most versatile player of all time. He scores and gets his teammates involved at rates practically never seen and does so from the forward position, which makes him a matchup nightmare for opponents.

A post I made on the subject:

Spoiler:

All players with career averages of 25 pts, 5 ast pace adjusted per 36 in RS, sorted by pts/36

1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. Kobe
4. Wade
5. Iverson

and in the postseason:

1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. McGrady (only 1693 mp)
4. Iverson

Individual seasons:
LeBron (10)
Jordan (8)
Kobe (8)
McGrady (6)
Wade (6)
Iverson (5)
Bird (3)
Westbrook (3)
Rose (2)
Arenas (2)
Durant (1)
Harden (1)
Hill (1)
Drexler (1)
Ginobili (1)
Roy (1)
Westphal (1)
Parker (1)
Free (1)
Kyrie (1)
R.Barry (1)
Archibald (1)


And players in the 90th percentile or better in both career pace adjusted points/36 and ast/36

1. LeBron
2. Wade
3. Rose
4. Westbrook
5. Parker
6. Cassell
7. CP3
8. Curry
9. Marbury

LeBron is the only forward on any of those lists except Bird, who only accomplished the 25/5 feat 3 times in his career to LeBron's 10.

He can play at least four positions on both sides of the ball. You can easily build a team around him and he can literally transform a bottom feeder into a title contender. I don't believe any player in history would have made his Cleveland teams consistently among the league's best (though I acknowledge those teams were built around him). After his departure, a 61 win team became a 19 win team (has this ever happened?)

He has dominated the numbers (box score and plus minus alike): 2nd in JE's 14 year rapm dataset and 3rd in average npi rapm 1997-2014 - only Shaq & Duncan are higher. 2nd in career PER after MJ, 5th in WS/48 after MJ, DRob, Wilt, and CP3, 2nd in ASPM, 1st in my Estimated Impact. Also, 1st in peak and prime estimated impact and 2nd in my new "Expected Titles" metric after Jordan (though I'm still working on tweaking that a bit).

His teams have never been bad - a testament to him more than his teammates - and they have pretty much been dominant in his prime (something you can't say about Hakeem, for example). He has never had teammates as good AND complimentary as Magic, Bird, Jordan, Duncan, or Shaq. His two all-star level teammates have similar skillsets to his (this is especially true for Wade) and just aren't particularly complimentary. He hasn't missed the playoffs in his prime (though he has always played in a weaker east).

His longevity is underrated - he has played the 18th most playoff minutes, more than Hakeem, Stockton, and Dirk, for example, and more regular season minutes than Magic.

I also think he's super portable. He could potentially be the best player in the league in any era as his combination of size, speed, and skill is completely unique and only arguably replicated by Magic, who didn't have the defensive versatility or ability of LeBron. The only real knock on him is his 2011 finals performance, which was bad to be sure, but it seems that it overshadows in peoples' minds his three great finals performances and his 2009 playoff run which was one of the best we've ever seen. Hakeem, Kareem, and Wilt had seasons in their primes where they didn't even make the playoffs, which I think should be more of a strike against them than one poor series is against LeBron.

[penbeast0]

Here are the players that have a shot at this spot and there records while having the HCA.

Code: Select all

 vs 50 win teams/non-50 win teams 
Magic:    9-2 (82%)/   20-1 (95%)
Bird:     10-6 (63%)/  14-1 (93%)
Olajuwon: 4-0 (100%)/  5-2 (71%)
Lebron:   3-3 (50%)/   15-0 (100%)
Kobe       18-2 (90%) / 7-0  (100%)


Magic 29-3 with HCA
Bird 24-7 with HCA
Hakeem 9-2 with HCA (amazing he only had so few series with HCA)
Lebron 18-3 with HCA
Kobe 25-2 with HCA

Code: Select all

Playoff Series Record with HCA against teams with a +2 SRS:
Magic 80-91'14-2 87.5%
Bird 80-91' 13-5 72.2%



Playoff Series Record with HCA against teams with a +4 SRS:
Magic 80-91'4-1 80.0%
Bird 80-91' 6-5 54.5%


Here are those guys without HCA

Code: Select all

 
              Road(50+)/non-50
Magic:        3-4 / 0-0 
Olajuwon:     7-8 / 1-1
Bird:         0-4 / 0-0
Kobe:         5-5 / 0-0
Lebron:      2-3 /0-0


Finished top 3 in MVP for 9x times which is the 2nd most in NBA History. Has 3 league mvp's, 3 finals mvp's, only other players with that was MJ and Russell would have that if finals mvp's existed at the time.

Vote: Magic Johnson

How about Mikan?

[An Unbiased Fan]

Still leaning Magic, but Kobe deserves mention.

-Arguably the most explosive scorer in history.
-Amazing consistency. 13 yeas of big volume scoring at 55%+ TS. Team ORtg consistently strong even during the Smush years. Top 5 MVP finishes in eleven different seasons.
-Elite 2-way player
-Playoff success rate speaks for itself. Had two separate teams win multiple titles. Went to 3 straight Finals on those teams too. 25-2 playoff record with HCA(for you JB).

06-10 Peak:
30/6/5 on 56.5% TS in the regular season
30/6/5 on 57.0% TS in the playoffs
11-3 playoff record in tough Western Conference. Facing teams averaging 5.02 SRS

Arguably the GOAT shot creator
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jgar3X0A0s[/youtube]

Arguably had the GOAT month.
Jan 2006: 43.4 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 4.1 apg on 61% TS
^
Only players with a 40+ ppg month are Wilt/Baylor/Kobe. Only Wilt & Kobe have more than 1(KB has 5).

One of the Top passing Non-PGs ever.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ye3D2nagUs[/youtube]


One of the Top perimeter defenders ever. Tremendous timing, ATG man defender. Elitet horizontal defender.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG7Mj5Mifqs[/youtube]

[JordansBulls]

How about Mikan?

He is really difficult to judge. I wouldn't put him anywhere in the top 10, I think by top 15 you could put him. He came in when the sport was just kicking off, so he is very difficult to judge. Also only played 60 games a year when he was playing, so would have to prorate his wins.

[andrewww]

This spot comes down to Magic/Hakeem/LeBron with Bird/Kobe/KG lurking not far behind.

Magic
With Magic you have approximately 9 excellent seasons (80-86, 88, 91), 3 or so GOAT-level seasons (87, 89-90). Put Magic on the floor, and I think you're automatically looking at a GOAT-level championship offense.

Magic ran the 2nd-best offensive dynasty in NBA history, and he did it with changing players. Once he expanded his scoring game in 87 and used that as a constant viable threat, the ball being in his hands was a deadly and relentless attack on offense. It's very similar to what Steve Nash did running the greatest offensive dynasty in NBA history without the sacrifice on the defensive side of the ball for the most part.

Hakeem
GOAT-level peak that directly translated into 2 straight championships on BOTH sides of the ball. Dream was one of the few players even in comparison to other all-time greats who was able to be at or close to his peak on offense and defense simltaneously that resulted in mulitple rings. The knock on him is of course how he is perceived as slightly `underachieving`outside of his peak years and I`m interested in expanding my understanding of this concept.

LeBron
A ridiculous stat sheet stuffer swiss army knife on both ends as well. Very much Shaq-esq on the perimeter minus the off court distractions or tendency to be injured and absent at times during the RS. I could make a strong argument that LeBron is one of the GOAT RS players ever.

My main knock on him is the ceiling of his teams (their potential if you will when compared to other historically great teams) when you consider how the jury is still out if LeBron can maximize his impact if his team were to become more traditional with him at the SF spot. It`s worth nothing that most people would consider that in the post-Jordan era, the clear two best teams both over the long haul (1999-present) and in individual seasons (2001 Lakers or 2014 Spurs) have been the Lakers and Spurs, and that none of the 2 title teams for LeBron are among the pantheon of all-time great teams for a reason (the lack of true big men in the current era makes it much easier to have small ball thrive).

Also regarding a limitation of LeBron that the stats will now show you, is how the Spurs were able to get a maximum number of stops in 2014 against the Heat because they were able to spend their defensive energy equitably - in 2013, the Spurs drastically altered their defense to accommodate for Lebron and did weird, gimmicky things like let him shoot wide open jumpers.... in 2014, they learned from this - why spend defensive energy unevenly by focusing too much on Lebron when Lebron caps his shot attempts to somewhat maintain his efficiency? Theoretically, if LeBron is shooting 57% from the field, you`d want him to take an even higher volume of shots. This would force the defense to make a compromise and pick its poison under situations where their is more durress as a result of LeBron putting pressure on your defense.

A good team can enjoy a much more effective defense by getting away with playing him him straight up - THAT is what Lebron's seemingly pristine high-efficiency style/game is giving up.. the Achilles heel in the armour if you will.. Coach Pop is like: "Force him to average 35ppg to beat us - it's not just that he probably can't.. I bet he won't even try, which means we get to play our normal, straight up D... which means WE WIN".

----------

My vote is for Magic Johnson but Hakeem is not far off my radar for this spot.

[magicmerl]

This pick for me is LeBron vs Magic. Both players have already had a lot of discussion in previous threads, so I'm unsure how much to regurgitate here. As a quick recap, both players have careers of similar lengths, and although LeBron is almost certain to continue playing at a superstar level for years to come, we can't give him credit for his future production yet, just like we can't give magic any credit for what he *might* have done for the lakers if he hadn't been forced to retire prematurely due to HIV.

The first 5 years: growth
Both players had a 'growth' period of about 5 years before they fully became 'the man' in the league.
LeBron 04-08 35.3PTS 8.9REB 8.5AST 2.3STL 1.0BLK 4.3TOV 2.7PF
Magic. 80-84 22.5PTS 10.4REB 12.2AST 3.1STL 0.7BLK 4.9TOV 3.3PF

LeBron 04-08 .548TS% 31.2USG% 112ORtg 103DRtg 42.8OWS 21.7DWS 64.6WS .193WS/48
Magic. 80-84 .601TS% 20.4USG% 117ORtg 102DRtg 33.5OWS 19.0DWS 52.5WS .200WS/48
Look at the difference in USG%. LeBron is clearly doing the heavy lifting for his team, and that's reflected in his higher win shares. Magic has wonderful AST/REB/STL numbers, and great efficiency, but that's partly a reflection that he's still playing on Kareem's team. Their WS/48 is basically a wash.

The next six years: Peak
(I'm going to pretend that magic's 1996 comeback didn't happen. Not that he was hot garbage, but he didn't realy help his team in terms of championships at all. he was more of a sideshow/distraction than anything)
LeBron 09-14 38.5PTS 10.4REB 9.9AST 2.3STL 1.1BLK 4.6TOV 2.3PF
Magic. 85-91 27.2PTS 8.7REB 16.2AST 2.1STL 0.4BLK 5.1TOV 2.7PF

LeBron 09-14 .613TS% 32.0USG% 120ORtg 101DRtg 74.2OWS 29.8DWS 104.0WS .290WS/48
Magic. 85-91 .614TS% 23.5USG% 123ORtg 106DRtg 74.5OWS 25.2DWS 99.6WS .243WS/48

Ok, so things to note as each player hits their prime: Both players generally get better across the board. Magic's rebounding numbers drop, while his assist numbers go through the roof. He gets better on offense but worse on defense. Magic's USG% is surprisingly low for what is presumably a ball dominant superstar.

LeBron finally has a good supporting cast around him in his prime, and improves both on offense and defense.

There's really not too much difference between the players themselves, other than that Magic's offensive contribution is more often an assist, while LeBron dials his own number to finish at the rim.

[ronnymac2]

For anybody who doesn't trust Olajuwon's 1986-1990 years...can you explain why?


Also, congrats to Shaquille O'Neal. He's probably the best or second best player I've ever watched as his prime progressed in real time. I can do Tim Duncan's bank shot and shoot a fadeaway like Kobe, but no matter what, I can't replicate what Shaq did on the basketball court. I need a mini-hoop for that.

[MacGill]

Question I have Re: LBJ vs Bird

By all accounts Bird hit the ground running as he came into the league later than 18 year old LBJ. I know that some state Bird could have replicated his play earlier as well, as he was allowed to come in earlier. With that said, could someone do a year by year comparison of the two or provide a link?

I really want to be sure that I am not underrating Bird here at all.

[Owly]

Bird and Magic. Followed them from the beginning - since days of Indiana University recruit and Michigan high school superstar.




By year:



Bird 274 MVP 1st place votes as best player in league

Magic 168.5 MVP 1st place votes as best player in league


1980 - Bird clearly better - Team improved by 32 games over prior year.
Magic not all-league - has spectular game 6 in final

1981 - Bird clearly better - Magic hurt and has awful playoff series

1982 - Bird clearly better - 2nd in MVP voting - Magic receives 1st MVP votes

1983-1986 - Bird better each season; MVP 3 times in a row - 1984-1986 Bird is best player in the game.


1987 - Magic better - leader of what might be best team ever. Questionable who the best player in the game is - Magic,Bird,Jordan

1988- Bird slightly better - At this point Jordan is definitely best player in the game.

1989-1991 Magic clearly better

1992/1996 One each for what it's worth


So Bird 3 clearly betters, 6 betters
Magic 3 clearly betters, 2 better

Bird best player in basketball for 3 years - Magic may be best player for 1 year.


All the time they played most considered Bird the superior.

I don't know if the opinion changed with this board, or if it happened earlier.

My only question is whether LeBron has surpassed Bird and Magic yet.

The problem here is the quaternary (looked that up) rating system. I'll take your ratings as accurate. How much more valuable was Magic in his "clearly better" '89, '90 and '91 campaigns.

A simple summary of that spell (in terms of regular season) here
http://bkref.com/tiny/L9A0j

Magic: 8756 minutes; 26.2 PER; .263 WS/48; 48 WS


Bird: 5410 minutes; 20.9 PER; .147; 16.6 WS

Though perhaps larger than some would concede, Bird's advantage in the first three years (even factoring in the gap D) wasn't nearly this large (and Bird with his lack of mobility became in his last year a liability on D from what I've read, and not great in the years before, which might make the last three year gap even wider than the numbers suggest).

The best player in the game thing doesn't really matter (or rather it only matters in asmuch as it reflects your superiority of the rest of the league but if it is relatively marginal, than having it for more years doesn't make it more valuable it's a matter of degree and impact not who happens to be first in a given year).

It's not that what you're saying is wrong (for most of his career, Bird was considered better, he did spend more time as the clear cut best in the game). It's that's that doesn't make a good case (though there may be one factoring in D, and perhaps, maybe a more explicit dissection of how much better Bird was those first few years, not sure about this; plus the difficulty of playing in the East, versus the Lakers' virtual bye to the finals in many years).

FWIW it isn't a recent or RealGM thing that Magic is better he's been placed as such on most published lists, the exceptions ('88 Patterson and Fisher, not a surprise given the time; '93 Taragano; '03 Kalb).


Anyway I'll repost my Robertson stuff just to try and get him in the discussion

Spoiler:

Just because he hasn't got any traction so far, some of the arguments for Oscar Robertson.

With without in ’68 (chosen because it’s his largest absence, I haven’t done this with other years) is pretty huge. Obviously preface this with:
(a) With without is noisy, it is measuring things that aren’t what you’re trying to measure (quality of backup, coaching adjustments, schedule etc).
(b) It’s a small sample
Over the year Cincinnati were -69 (82 games), with Robertson they were +118 (65 games, +1.815385 per game). That means without him they were -187 without him (17 games, -11 per game). That suggests a value of roughly 13 points (in that particular context, with all the caveats above) over his reserve (Guy Rodgers).

And with regard to the numbers it’s not the triple double average across his first six years. And obviously his rebounding prowess is overstated by pace, more misses back then and high minutes. But you can go too far denigrating his rebounding, I’ve seen it noted that he was 7th on his team in rebounding percentage in his largest boxscore rebounding year (’62 12.5 rpg), but that needs placing in context, firstly they rebounded by committee and there are a bunch of players grouped together, and then amongst actual rotation players Robertson is 4th behind the center, backup center and power forward. And it wasn’t like this was a team on which it was easy to grab rebounds, Wayne Embry who on a weaker team had competed with Chamberlain and Russell in rebound rate. The Royals rebound total is slightly below the average but this is misleading because they took less than the average amount of fgas, made the highest percentage of them and given opponents ppg presumably allowed a high fg% so I don’t think there were a lot easy rebounds available. Then too consider his burden amongst guys with a playmaking responsibility, you have Wilt as a better rebounder in that era, and one year of Gola (a role player) then it’s Robertson for the first half of the http://bkref.com/tiny/kVq7w and that’s per minute.

His assist numbers aren’t inflated given the slightly lower fg% and in particular the much tighter/meaner scorekeeping on assists which pretty much counteracts the increased pace. And because composite boxscore metrics are based on the modern era assumptions/estimations of the value of an assist Robertson is somewhat cheated here. And here too note the margin of superiority over the next best guard. Guy Rodgers had a couple of seasons where he snatched the assists crown, and another year with 10.7, but then the rest of his career he couldn’t get over 9 a game. From 60-61 to 68-69 Robertson averaged 10.5 per game, Rodgers is closest over that span (and it nicely matches his career) with 8.3 (now Rodgers does have a per minute edge, but played on some very fast and some gimmicky teams, and the reason he wasn’t on court as much as Robertson is he was so far off at everything else, plus Robertson had to call his own number more often) http://bkref.com/tiny/WLTix . It’s notable how far Robertson and Rodgers are ahead of the rest of the pack in assist% (for the years we have it, the later half of the 60s, and Robertson racked up more of his assists in the first half of the decade, whilst Rodgers did better in the latter half than he had earlier).

He was also the eras most efficient scorer ( cf: http://bkref.com/tiny/5loDk http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... op_10.html ) and iirc consistently led his teams to the best offensive ratings.

Put off by the lack of team success? Look at what the management did with talent around him.
Jerry Lucas and Larry Siegfried lost to ABL, with Siegfried somehow lost to Boston when the ABL folded; Mel Daniels to ABA; Bob Boozer traded for nothing of value; Bob Love exposed to expansion; Freddie Lewis exposed to expansion; Louie Dampier went to ABA; draft picks either wasted or never given minutes, not developed and/or given away for nothing or simply traded for less than equal value (for those who weren’t worthless Flynn Robinson, Wayne Embry, Happy Hairston and Jim Fox).
Cincinnati were cheap and poorly managed. Of course the ABA guys wouldn’t have been in the 60s NBA as they were in the 60s ABA. But they could play, and be assets.

The icing on the cake would be the accolades and critics rankings (First Team All-NBA, called the best player by Koppett, consistently top 10 in all published rankings including two first place rankings, plus being voted player of the century by the NABC). Actually one ranking had him outside the top 10. Keith Thompson’s Heroes of the Hardcourt. It had him 19th. Behind Heinsohn. So all published, non-insane rankings.

I understand if this is too much advocacy for some peoples taste and welcome reactions against Robertson being in the discussion at this point. Just that for me he's at least worthy of being in the discussion here, so I pulled together the main cases for him.

I guess if I vote I probably would/will vote LeBron as the last of the monster boxscore guys (Jordan, Chamberlain, Jabbar, Shaq are in) still available (maybe D-Rob counts but he's not getting votes here), plus he has the accolades and now he's got minutes on par with Bird and Magic http://bkref.com/tiny/jyFR4 . Is this sufficent reasoning for tentative vote (probably not, doesn't matter, if/when I have time/motivation may expand, or be persuaded otherwise).

[An Unbiased Fan]

Question I have Re: LBJ vs Bird

By all accounts Bird hit the ground running as he came into the league later than 18 year old LBJ. I know that some state Bird could have replicated his play earlier as well, as he was allowed to come in earlier. With that said, could someone do a year by year comparison of the two or provide a link?

I really want to be sure that I am not underrating Bird here at all.

Don't have the numbers, but to put it in perspective, Larry was a 23 year old rookie. So think Lebron in 2008, Kobe in 2002, Magic in 1983. It's a big reason why him & Magic rose up about 3 years apart(80-88 vs 83-91).

I don't think he would have replicate the same level of play because I think his big advantage as a rookie was his maturity as a 23 year old man with 3 college years behind him.