RealGM Top 100 List #10

[penbeast0]

OK, a challenge. Give me a reason not to vote for Larry Bird (and for Garnett fans, to support Kevin Garnett over David Robinson other than longevity) . . .

[acrossthecourt]

Yeah I'm trying to think of who I would take over Bird. Given that I value peak more, guys with long careers don't have that trump card.

David Robinson: you think his playoff defeats are overstated and his defense is getting overlooked.

Garnett: you acknowledge his consistently high value and that NBA players don't have to be high volume isolation scorers to be superstars.

Karl Malone: his playoff struggles are overstated, like Robinson's, and you can't deny that he has an astounding number of high level seasons including some MVP-level ones.

Oscar: advanced stats would have loved him. His versatility and size on offense made a nightmare to guard. He was a one-man offense and brought the best out of young Kareem.


Best five years according to ASPM (a box score metric based on an 8 year sample [I checked and I believe this version is 8] of RAPM data, tested better than other things like PER):

Garnett:
2003 to 2006:
6.01
7.35
6.92
5.86
2008:
6.69

Kobe:
2003:
6.42
2006 to 2009:
7.77
5.77
6.01
5.53

Dr. J:
1980 to 1984:
5.80
5.96
5.83
4.25
4.09
(Note: this does not include the ABA, unfortunately. I'd guess Dr. J's 1976 would be crazy high ... like 7 or higher.)

David Robinson:
1991 to 1992:
6.52
7.60
1994 to 1996:
8.48
7.41
7.28

Karl Malone:
1990:
6.20
1995 to 1998:
6.09
6.71
7.82
6.63

Moses Malone:
1979 to 1983:
3.10
2.24
3.19
3.55
3.90

Dirk:
2003:
5.39
2005 to 2008:
5.43
5.55
5.93
4.71


Extra note: I believe this data includes the usg*usg multiplier, which means I think it's overrating super high volume guys like Jordan/Kobe/Iverson. Jordan's in the 9-10 range constantly, and Iverson is rated higher than Shaq in 2001.


Apologies to pre-turnovers being tracked (1974) guys: Oscar, West, Pettit, Mikan, et al.

I'm open to hearing about their consideration soon, even in the next voting thread.

[ceiling raiser]

I like KG a lot here, but I do think Bird would be a monster player—likely a GOAT level stretch 4—in today's game (which is a big factor in my picks). The problem is longevity, of course.

What I'm looking to learn about Bird in this thread:

1) How much do we value his post-89 seasons? Which of those can we consider quality years? How much did his defense fall off?

2) How much separation is there between his early and peak seasons?

3) In today's game, what kind of volume on threes could we expect (it would be nice if we could establish a range that we're comfortable with)? I've posted it a couple of times, but here's a possibly useful selection from his 90 book: http://www2.zippyshare.com/v/12642344/file.html

Any new data/analysis on KG would obviously be a huge help as well, but I'm not looking to learn anything specifically about him at the moment.

[Clyde Frazier]

OK, a challenge. Give me a reason not to vote for Larry Bird (and for Garnett fans, to support Kevin Garnett over David Robinson other than longevity) . . .

Clarifying something I wasn't sure of before: if we don't vote before a runoff starts, are we able to vote for one of the runoff candidates, or is it only for people who already voted?

[Texas Chuck]

Im leaning Bird still(voted for him at #9) but KG, Admiral, Dirk, Oscar, Kobe,West, and Mailman are all players I could see myself possibly considering.

to answer one of fpliii's questions, I'd say all of Bird's post 89 seasons he played at a high level--the real issue is the amount of games missed. But when he played, he was still playing full starter's minutes and still producing at reasonably close to the same rate he was prior to 89.

[Quotatious]

I'll most likely vote for Bird here, but I'm also considering the guys from my 11-16 range, especially Oscar, maybe Dirk or KG. Kobe, Doc and West also have to get some serious traction at this point. Dr. J's chances are a little smaller than I'd thought before 'cause of the fact that he spent his peak seasons during the era when the talent level was divided between two leagues. Still, I don't think it should really be held against him because he had no control over that situation, so I'm not really sure how I feel about it, anymore.

Honestly though, Oscar and KG seem to have a pretty strong case (especially Robertson) - Garnett having a good argument is a little surprising to me since I rank DIrk slightly ahead of him (my 11-16 in order is Oscar, Dirk, KG, Kobe, Dr. J, West), but at the same time, Garnett seems like he has a better argument than Dirk in the comparison to Bird. It's really weird, I know.

I don't really consider Karl, Moses or D-Rob yet as I see a rather clear, even if not too big, separation between my #16 (West) and 17 (Moses).

I feel like after #10 (I assume that Bird will win here, quite easily), there will be no clear favorite whatsoever (given how many posters on the PC board don't hold Kobe in such high regard as for example the GB).

[magicmerl]

OK, a challenge. Give me a reason not to vote for Larry Bird (and for Garnett fans, to support Kevin Garnett over David Robinson other than longevity) . . .

Clarifying something I wasn't sure of before: if we don't vote before a runoff starts, are we able to vote for one of the runoff candidates, or is it only for people who already voted?

The way I see it, the 'runoff' just restricts your voting choices to the runoff candidates. You can still make your vote if you haven't voted yet, or change your previous vote to a different candidate.

acrossthecourt wrote:

Spoiler:

Yeah I'm trying to think of who I would take over Bird. Given that I value peak more, guys with long careers don't have that trump card.

David Robinson: you think his playoff defeats are overstated and his defense is getting overlooked.

Garnett: you acknowledge his consistently high value and that NBA players don't have to be high volume isolation scorers to be superstars.

Karl Malone: his playoff struggles are overstated, like Robinson's, and you can't deny that he has an astounding number of high level seasons including some MVP-level ones.

Oscar: advanced stats would have loved him. His versatility and size on offense made a nightmare to guard. He was a one-man offense and brought the best out of young Kareem.


Best five years according to ASPM (a box score metric based on an 8 year sample [I checked and I believe this version is 8] of RAPM data, tested better than other things like PER):

Garnett:
2003 to 2006:
6.01
7.35
6.92
5.86
2008:
6.69

Kobe:
2003:
6.42
2006 to 2009:
7.77
5.77
6.01
5.53

Dr. J:
1980 to 1984:
5.80
5.96
5.83
4.25
4.09
(Note: this does not include the ABA, unfortunately. I'd guess Dr. J's 1976 would be crazy high ... like 7 or higher.)

David Robinson:
1991 to 1992:
6.52
7.60
1994 to 1996:
8.48
7.41
7.28

Karl Malone:
1990:
6.20
1995 to 1998:
6.09
6.71
7.82
6.63

Moses Malone:
1979 to 1983:
3.10
2.24
3.19
3.55
3.90

Dirk:
2003:
5.39
2005 to 2008:
5.43
5.55
5.93
4.71


Extra note: I believe this data includes the usg*usg multiplier, which means I think it's overrating super high volume guys like Jordan/Kobe/Iverson. Jordan's in the 9-10 range constantly, and Iverson is rated higher than Shaq in 2001.


Apologies to pre-turnovers being tracked (1974) guys: Oscar, West, Pettit, Mikan, et al.

I'm open to hearing about their consideration soon, even in the next voting thread.

I'm not an ASPM expert, but these numbers make David Robinson and Karl Malone look better than Garnett by that criteria, yes?

[Texas Chuck]

Hmmm Q, Dirk v Larry





I'd say Dirk clearly has the edge in the long blond mullet--don't really see how KG competes at all really, Q.

In all serious I get where you are coming from regarding KG having a better case over Bird. Just like Dirk has a better case over David Robinson that KG does. Both Dirk v Bird and KG v Admiral a big part of the case has to be longevity but when you flip the comparisons then more edges can be found.

[magicmerl]

Hmmm Q, Dirk v Larry





I'd say Dirk clearly has the edge in the long blond mullet--don't really see how KG competes at all really, Q.

In all serious I get where you are coming from regarding KG having a better case over Bird. Just like Dirk has a better case over David Robinson that KG does. Both Dirk v Bird and KG v Admiral a big part of the case has to be longevity but when you flip the comparisons then more edges can be found.

Clearly Larry has the moustache edge.

[colts18]

While Kobe might be the least clutch star of his generation, I might have to take him over Bird because of Longevity and the fact that both equally dropped off in the playoffs.

[Texas Chuck]

Clearly Larry has the moustache edge.

No doubt. Dirk concede the stache crown. But full beard:

[ronnymac2]

Clearly Larry has the moustache edge.

No doubt. Dirk concede the stache crown. But full beard:

This man looks like he can lead you through a snowy mountain range.

[acrossthecourt]

OK, a challenge. Give me a reason not to vote for Larry Bird (and for Garnett fans, to support Kevin Garnett over David Robinson other than longevity) . . .

Clarifying something I wasn't sure of before: if we don't vote before a runoff starts, are we able to vote for one of the runoff candidates, or is it only for people who already voted?

The way I see it, the 'runoff' just restricts your voting choices to the runoff candidates. You can still make your vote if you haven't voted yet, or change your previous vote to a different candidate.

acrossthecourt wrote:

Spoiler:

Yeah I'm trying to think of who I would take over Bird. Given that I value peak more, guys with long careers don't have that trump card.

David Robinson: you think his playoff defeats are overstated and his defense is getting overlooked.

Garnett: you acknowledge his consistently high value and that NBA players don't have to be high volume isolation scorers to be superstars.

Karl Malone: his playoff struggles are overstated, like Robinson's, and you can't deny that he has an astounding number of high level seasons including some MVP-level ones.

Oscar: advanced stats would have loved him. His versatility and size on offense made a nightmare to guard. He was a one-man offense and brought the best out of young Kareem.


Best five years according to ASPM (a box score metric based on an 8 year sample [I checked and I believe this version is 8] of RAPM data, tested better than other things like PER):

Garnett:
2003 to 2006:
6.01
7.35
6.92
5.86
2008:
6.69

Kobe:
2003:
6.42
2006 to 2009:
7.77
5.77
6.01
5.53

Dr. J:
1980 to 1984:
5.80
5.96
5.83
4.25
4.09
(Note: this does not include the ABA, unfortunately. I'd guess Dr. J's 1976 would be crazy high ... like 7 or higher.)

David Robinson:
1991 to 1992:
6.52
7.60
1994 to 1996:
8.48
7.41
7.28

Karl Malone:
1990:
6.20
1995 to 1998:
6.09
6.71
7.82
6.63

Moses Malone:
1979 to 1983:
3.10
2.24
3.19
3.55
3.90

Dirk:
2003:
5.39
2005 to 2008:
5.43
5.55
5.93
4.71


Extra note: I believe this data includes the usg*usg multiplier, which means I think it's overrating super high volume guys like Jordan/Kobe/Iverson. Jordan's in the 9-10 range constantly, and Iverson is rated higher than Shaq in 2001.


Apologies to pre-turnovers being tracked (1974) guys: Oscar, West, Pettit, Mikan, et al.

I'm open to hearing about their consideration soon, even in the next voting thread.

I'm not an ASPM expert, but these numbers make David Robinson and Karl Malone look better than Garnett by that criteria, yes?

Yes. Robinson's RS box score numbers are bonkers, as we all know, and Karl's solid of course. But Robinson has a greater drop in the playoffs than anyone, Karl doesn't look great from his shooting percentages, and Garnett is underrated by ASPM as we can see from several long-term RAPM models.

For instance, that ASPM overvalues high usage guys (the usg*usg term won't be used in the next form of the model, I believe), Garnett's defense is really hard to capture in basic stats unlike shotblocking centers, Garnett spaces the floor better than most big men, and he's a great (illegal) screener. Hopefully the next historical model will be released soon, and then there's the shutupandjam model.

I thought it was interesting how penalized Moses Malone was. As I've said, low post scoring centers who don't pass well are usually worse on offense than you'd think.

[90sAllDecade]

I am open minded about all cases and will do my best to contribute comparisons of all players mentioned so far based on my criteria. Just so I'm clear, these are all the players mentioned at this point?

(no particular order)

Bird, Mikan, Dr. J, Garnett, Kobe, Karl Malone, Moses, Dirk, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson.

I'll try to provide more Mikan data, so people can learn more as well as other players I don't know enough about like Moses or West and Oscar.

Edit: Barkley as well, thanks for reminding me.

[Purch]

Charles Barkley

Spoiler:

The only player to win an Mvp over Jordan in his absolute prime.

Also, if we’re making cases for Malone I should probally put a post about the power forward that I rank above both Malone and Garnett. One of the single most efficient and effective scorers in Nba history.

Career Leaders and Records for Offensive Rating

1. Chris Paul 122.44 (G)
2. Reggie Miller 121.48 (SG)
3. Magic Johnson* 120.79 (PG-Point F)
4. John Stockton* 120.55 (PG)
5. Kiki Vandeweghe 119.49 (SF-SG)
6. Sidney Moncrief 119.40 (CG-PG)
7. Charles Barkley* 119.31 (PF)

SHOT MADE/MISS DIFFERENTIAL STAT-
(minimum 15,000 shot attempts)

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: +3,367.5
2. Shaquille O'Neal: +3,200.5
3. Wilt Chamberlain: +1,865
4. Charles Barkley: +1,434

NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating


1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 26.91
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Dwyane Wade 25.65
7. Bob Pettit* 25.35
8. Chris Paul 25.22
9. Tim Duncan 24.84
10. Neil Johnston* 24.63
11. Charles Barkley* 24.63

NBA & ABA Career Playoff Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating


1. Michael Jordan* 28.59
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. LeBron James 26.31
4. Shaquille O'Neal 26.12
5. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
6. Tim Duncan 25.43
7. Dirk Nowitzki 24.75
8. Tracy McGrady 24.66
9. Dwyane Wade 24.56
10. Charles Barkley* 24.18

Nba all time career leaders in True Shooting %

1. Cedric Maxwell .6294
2. Artis Gilmore .6227
3. Dave Twardzik .6184
4. James Donaldson .6177
5. Adrian Dantley .6166
6. Tyson Chandler .6166
7. Reggie Miler .6139
8. Charles Barkley .6120

Most seasons with a 2 point percentage of 60% or more ( playing at least 60 games)

1 Artis Gilmore 1981 1986 6
2 Charles Barkley 1987 1991 5
3 Tyson Chandler 2007 2013 5
4 Wilt Chamberlain 1967 1973 3


The common theme you see in a lot of these efficiency stats, is that role players who have a lot of baskets created for them are near the top. However, with Barkley you have a player near the top in all these effiency stats, who at the same time was one of the single most double teamed players in nba history.



Charles Barkley playoff games
Charles Barkley – 1 (50 point playoff game)
Charles Barkley- 5 (40 point playoff game)
Charles Barkley- 28 (30 point playoff games)

For comparison Kevin Garnett has only scored 30 points in 9 playoff games.

The more I watch of Barkley and Garnett, the more I'm convinced that the gap between them offensively, is just as substantial as the gap between them defensively. With Barkley you literally have a 6'4 power foward, scoring the ball with Shaq level efficiency during his prime.

For four straight years during his prime he led the league in True shooting percentage.

1986-1987- .660
1987-1988- .665
1988-1989- .653
1989-1990- .661

For comparison sake, Kevin Garnett does not have a single season of 60 TS% or better. Whiles Barkley is ranked #9 in career TS% and has a career TS% of .6120, Kevin Garnett is ranked #193 all time with a TS% of only .5472 for his career.


And he was doing this whiles being one of the most double teamed players in nba history.There's literally less than a handful of players in nba history who have been able to score as much at as high an efficiency against both playoff and regular season defenses as Charles Barkley. The only guys who have, have already been voted in as top 5 players in this project.

Also I forgot to add on, just how good Charles Barkley was on the offensive glass. For three straight seasons he led the league in offensive rebounds

1986-1987- 390 offensive rebounds
1987-1988- 385 offensive rebounds
1988-1989- 403 offensive rebounds

For his career he's ranked 6th all time in offensive rebounds

1. Moses Malone -7382
2. Artis Gilmore - 4816
3. Robert Parish -4598
4. Buck Williams- 4526
5. Dennis Rodman-4329
6. Charles Barkley- 4260

This is even more impressive considering he only played a 15 year career, and a lot of those weren't even in his prime.

[JordansBulls]

Charles Barkley

Spoiler:

The only player to win an Mvp over Jordan in his absolute prime.

Also, if we’re making cases for Malone I should probally put a post about the power forward that I rank above both Malone and Garnett. One of the single most efficient and effective scorers in Nba history.

Career Leaders and Records for Offensive Rating

1. Chris Paul 122.44 (G)
2. Reggie Miller 121.48 (SG)
3. Magic Johnson* 120.79 (PG-Point F)
4. John Stockton* 120.55 (PG)
5. Kiki Vandeweghe 119.49 (SF-SG)
6. Sidney Moncrief 119.40 (CG-PG)
7. Charles Barkley* 119.31 (PF)

SHOT MADE/MISS DIFFERENTIAL STAT-
(minimum 15,000 shot attempts)

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: +3,367.5
2. Shaquille O'Neal: +3,200.5
3. Wilt Chamberlain: +1,865
4. Charles Barkley: +1,434

NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating


1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 26.91
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Dwyane Wade 25.65
7. Bob Pettit* 25.35
8. Chris Paul 25.22
9. Tim Duncan 24.84
10. Neil Johnston* 24.63
11. Charles Barkley* 24.63

NBA & ABA Career Playoff Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating


1. Michael Jordan* 28.59
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. LeBron James 26.31
4. Shaquille O'Neal 26.12
5. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
6. Tim Duncan 25.43
7. Dirk Nowitzki 24.75
8. Tracy McGrady 24.66
9. Dwyane Wade 24.56
10. Charles Barkley* 24.18

Nba all time career leaders in True Shooting %

1. Cedric Maxwell .6294
2. Artis Gilmore .6227
3. Dave Twardzik .6184
4. James Donaldson .6177
5. Adrian Dantley .6166
6. Tyson Chandler .6166
7. Reggie Miler .6139
8. Charles Barkley .6120

Most seasons with a 2 point percentage of 60% or more ( playing at least 60 games)

1 Artis Gilmore 1981 1986 6
2 Charles Barkley 1987 1991 5
3 Tyson Chandler 2007 2013 5
4 Wilt Chamberlain 1967 1973 3


The common theme you see in a lot of these efficiency stats, is that role players who have a lot of baskets created for them are near the top. However, with Barkley you have a player near the top in all these effiency stats, who at the same time was one of the single most double teamed players in nba history.



Charles Barkley playoff games
Charles Barkley – 1 (50 point playoff game)
Charles Barkley- 5 (40 point playoff game)
Charles Barkley- 28 (30 point playoff games)

For comparison Kevin Garnett has only scored 30 points in 9 playoff games.

The more I watch of Barkley and Garnett, the more I'm convinced that the gap between them offensively, is just as substantial as the gap between them defensively. With Barkley you literally have a 6'4 power foward, scoring the ball with Shaq level efficiency during his prime.

For four straight years during his prime he led the league in True shooting percentage.

1986-1987- .660
1987-1988- .665
1988-1989- .653
1989-1990- .661

For comparison sake, Kevin Garnett does not have a single season of 60 TS% or better. Whiles Barkley is ranked #9 in career TS% and has a career TS% of .6120, Kevin Garnett is ranked #193 all time with a TS% of only .5472 for his career.


And he was doing this whiles being one of the most double teamed players in nba history.There's literally less than a handful of players in nba history who have been able to score as much at as high an efficiency against both playoff and regular season defenses as Charles Barkley. The only guys who have, have already been voted in as top 5 players in this project.

Also I forgot to add on, just how good Charles Barkley was on the offensive glass. For three straight seasons he led the league in offensive rebounds

1986-1987- 390 offensive rebounds
1987-1988- 385 offensive rebounds
1988-1989- 403 offensive rebounds

For his career he's ranked 6th all time in offensive rebounds

1. Moses Malone -7382
2. Artis Gilmore - 4816
3. Robert Parish -4598
4. Buck Williams- 4526
5. Dennis Rodman-4329
6. Charles Barkley- 4260

This is even more impressive considering he only played a 15 year career, and a lot of those weren't even in his prime.

You need to update the PER stuff, it is outdated a bit.

[magicmerl]

I am open minded about all cases

Now that Hakeem is in you mean?

and will do my best to contribute comparisons of all players mentioned so far based on my criteria. Just so I'm clear, these are all the players mentioned at this point?

(no particular order)

Bird, Mikan, Dr. J, Garnett, Kobe, Karl Malone, Moses, Dirk, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson.

I'll try to provide more Mikan data, so people can learn more as well as other players I don't know enough about like Moses or West and Oscar.

Well, I think that Bird is a slam dunk here at #10, but those other guys you list along with David Robinson are all serious candidates at #11. It's going to be really hard to compare all of these different players.

[ronnymac2]

I'm leaning towards Larry Bird. I've gained further appreciation for his post-88 career and think it is very valuable in competing with Garnett, Bryant, etc.

That said, the guys he is up against do still have decent longevity arguments. I want to see what people think of Karl Malone. I'm higher on single years of Malone than most (basically I'm higher on him as a player on the court). He's got KAJ-like longevity. I do believe he's a legitimate candidate here to usurp Larry Bird, who I believe has the weakest career value relative to his GOAT-level peak peers who are ahead of him. Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, Julius Erving, and maybe Oscar Robertson, too. Oh and Dirk.

I will say that upon reading everything over the past 9 threads, I've come to the conclusion that Kevin Garnett is the most portable top-20 talent in NBA history. I can't think of a team he can be placed on where he wouldn't have strong positive impact on both sides of the ball. This makes him an incredibly valuable piece when it comes to 5 vs. 5 basketball.

[Texas Chuck]

accross,

why does it matter if Admiral dropped more in relation to his RS self if he still out-performs KG in the PS?

This is what I was talking about in the other thread. It just makes no sense at all to say someone is a better playoff performed based more on the relationship to how they performed in the RS than on how they actually performed in the playoffs.

And frankly most players drop off in the postseason, barring a few notable exceptions. Better teams, better defensives, better coaches, better gameplans, familiarity etc. I tend to credit the guys who raise their games: Dream, Mike, Dirk, etc... but try not to over-react to those whose numbers look worse--Robinson, KG, Malone, etc.

And I would certainly never judge it on a percentage comparison to the RS.

[Purch]

Charles Barkley

Spoiler:

The only player to win an Mvp over Jordan in his absolute prime.

Also, if we’re making cases for Malone I should probally put a post about the power forward that I rank above both Malone and Garnett. One of the single most efficient and effective scorers in Nba history.

Career Leaders and Records for Offensive Rating

1. Chris Paul 122.44 (G)
2. Reggie Miller 121.48 (SG)
3. Magic Johnson* 120.79 (PG-Point F)
4. John Stockton* 120.55 (PG)
5. Kiki Vandeweghe 119.49 (SF-SG)
6. Sidney Moncrief 119.40 (CG-PG)
7. Charles Barkley* 119.31 (PF)

SHOT MADE/MISS DIFFERENTIAL STAT-
(minimum 15,000 shot attempts)

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: +3,367.5
2. Shaquille O'Neal: +3,200.5
3. Wilt Chamberlain: +1,865
4. Charles Barkley: +1,434

NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating


1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 26.91
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Dwyane Wade 25.65
7. Bob Pettit* 25.35
8. Chris Paul 25.22
9. Tim Duncan 24.84
10. Neil Johnston* 24.63
11. Charles Barkley* 24.63

NBA & ABA Career Playoff Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating


1. Michael Jordan* 28.59
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. LeBron James 26.31
4. Shaquille O'Neal 26.12
5. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
6. Tim Duncan 25.43
7. Dirk Nowitzki 24.75
8. Tracy McGrady 24.66
9. Dwyane Wade 24.56
10. Charles Barkley* 24.18

Nba all time career leaders in True Shooting %

1. Cedric Maxwell .6294
2. Artis Gilmore .6227
3. Dave Twardzik .6184
4. James Donaldson .6177
5. Adrian Dantley .6166
6. Tyson Chandler .6166
7. Reggie Miler .6139
8. Charles Barkley .6120

Most seasons with a 2 point percentage of 60% or more ( playing at least 60 games)

1 Artis Gilmore 1981 1986 6
2 Charles Barkley 1987 1991 5
3 Tyson Chandler 2007 2013 5
4 Wilt Chamberlain 1967 1973 3


The common theme you see in a lot of these efficiency stats, is that role players who have a lot of baskets created for them are near the top. However, with Barkley you have a player near the top in all these effiency stats, who at the same time was one of the single most double teamed players in nba history.



Charles Barkley playoff games
Charles Barkley – 1 (50 point playoff game)
Charles Barkley- 5 (40 point playoff game)
Charles Barkley- 28 (30 point playoff games)

For comparison Kevin Garnett has only scored 30 points in 9 playoff games.

The more I watch of Barkley and Garnett, the more I'm convinced that the gap between them offensively, is just as substantial as the gap between them defensively. With Barkley you literally have a 6'4 power foward, scoring the ball with Shaq level efficiency during his prime.

For four straight years during his prime he led the league in True shooting percentage.

1986-1987- .660
1987-1988- .665
1988-1989- .653
1989-1990- .661

For comparison sake, Kevin Garnett does not have a single season of 60 TS% or better. Whiles Barkley is ranked #9 in career TS% and has a career TS% of .6120, Kevin Garnett is ranked #193 all time with a TS% of only .5472 for his career.


And he was doing this whiles being one of the most double teamed players in nba history.There's literally less than a handful of players in nba history who have been able to score as much at as high an efficiency against both playoff and regular season defenses as Charles Barkley. The only guys who have, have already been voted in as top 5 players in this project.

Also I forgot to add on, just how good Charles Barkley was on the offensive glass. For three straight seasons he led the league in offensive rebounds

1986-1987- 390 offensive rebounds
1987-1988- 385 offensive rebounds
1988-1989- 403 offensive rebounds

For his career he's ranked 6th all time in offensive rebounds

1. Moses Malone -7382
2. Artis Gilmore - 4816
3. Robert Parish -4598
4. Buck Williams- 4526
5. Dennis Rodman-4329
6. Charles Barkley- 4260

This is even more impressive considering he only played a 15 year career, and a lot of those weren't even in his prime.

You need to update the PER stuff, it is outdated a bit.

Oh, on basketball reference it seems like he's moved up the list, I'm confused as to who dropped in efficency. Oh it seems as though Timmy dropped the past year or so.