RealGM Top 100 List #13
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RealGM Top 100 List #13
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RealGM Top 100 List #13
players I am considering, by position:
C David Robinson to me is the best left in terms of peak. Moses has great longevity though and the third possibility is George Mikan who is the only player left that was the undisputed best player in basketball for a reasonably long stretch of time (5 years +). I rate Robinson higher at the moment because Moses's defense is solid on ball but he isn't a defensive anchor and defensive anchors like the Admiral (anchor, Admiral, oh never mind) tend to have an impact out of proportion to their numbers.
PF Karl Malone is the obvious choice, though I have seen Dirk, Petit, Barkley, and even Rodman rated over him by various posters.
SF Erving again is the obvious choice. Durant is interesting.
SG Kobe is the obvious choice.
PG West with Frazier, Stockman, and Nash as long shots. West was also generating outstanding offenses in LA but he adds excellent defense, super clutch performances, (and outstanding leadership though that can be said of the other remaining PGs as well). Just the most impactful PG remaining by a healthy margin.
So, DRob, Moses, Karl, Doc, Kobe, Oscar, West . . . . let the POLITE DISCUSSION begin.
C David Robinson to me is the best left in terms of peak. Moses has great longevity though and the third possibility is George Mikan who is the only player left that was the undisputed best player in basketball for a reasonably long stretch of time (5 years +). I rate Robinson higher at the moment because Moses's defense is solid on ball but he isn't a defensive anchor and defensive anchors like the Admiral (anchor, Admiral, oh never mind) tend to have an impact out of proportion to their numbers.
PF Karl Malone is the obvious choice, though I have seen Dirk, Petit, Barkley, and even Rodman rated over him by various posters.
SF Erving again is the obvious choice. Durant is interesting.
SG Kobe is the obvious choice.
PG West with Frazier, Stockman, and Nash as long shots. West was also generating outstanding offenses in LA but he adds excellent defense, super clutch performances, (and outstanding leadership though that can be said of the other remaining PGs as well). Just the most impactful PG remaining by a healthy margin.
So, DRob, Moses, Karl, Doc, Kobe, Oscar, West . . . . let the POLITE DISCUSSION begin.
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13
Dr J v.s Karl Malone
Tentative Vote- Karl Malone
I may change this later, I almost typed Dr J here, but couldn't quite do it. For the moment I think I'll go with the Mailman.
To me this comes down to Karl Malone and Dr J. I can still be swung either way of which one to choose, but for my money they are the two best players left.
Karl Malone v.s Kobe
I'll outline again my thoughts on Dr J v.s Kobe:
Tentative Vote- Karl Malone
I may change this later, I almost typed Dr J here, but couldn't quite do it. For the moment I think I'll go with the Mailman.
To me this comes down to Karl Malone and Dr J. I can still be swung either way of which one to choose, but for my money they are the two best players left.
Karl Malone v.s Kobe
Spoiler:
I'll outline again my thoughts on Dr J v.s Kobe:
Baller2014 wrote:I was thinking about these two RE: the top 100 project:
The case for Dr JSpoiler:
Does the ABA “Count”?Spoiler:
The case against Kobe
Kobe’s impact is lower than guys currently being discussedSpoiler:
Kobe’s horrible intangibles- bad team mate, bad leaderSpoiler:
Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13
Oscar got voted in. I still don't see how he was better than Nash. During their primes, Nash was a better offensive player, by a decent margin too. I don't think Oscar's slight defensive lead plus his rebounding is enough to overcome that gap. Nash is top 5 offensive player with a case for GOAT. I don't see Oscar having a case for GOAT offensive player.
Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13
Baller2014 wrote:Regular season offensive impact. Sure, Kobe is a better ballhandler than Karl Malone. So is Dominique Wilkins or Jason Kidd, but that doesn’t make them better offensive players. Karl Malone’s awesome RS offensive performances just have to be ahead of Kobe. Offensive impact is not about balancing different artificial skill sets like shooting v.s dribbling, it’s about impact on that end of the court. Shaq was a worse dribbling and passer than Kobe, but he was clearly a more impactful offensive player.
Shaq was such a dominant inside presence that makes for his lack of other offensive atributes. Karl is not. Kobe is better than him at everything on the offensive part of the game (well, not everything, Malone is obviously a better offensive rebounder, screen setter and roll man, but I think you all understand my point).
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13
Would like:
-Full game video of Jerry West games pre-Wilt.
-Full game video of Karl Malone pre-late 90's.
-The best prime David Robinson games against good defenses?
-An interesting breakdown of why the Pau-Lakers worked so well and what Kobe had to do with it.
Also, no one counted my vote in the last threat, not that it matters now.
-Full game video of Jerry West games pre-Wilt.
-Full game video of Karl Malone pre-late 90's.
-The best prime David Robinson games against good defenses?
-An interesting breakdown of why the Pau-Lakers worked so well and what Kobe had to do with it.
Also, no one counted my vote in the last threat, not that it matters now.
Twitter: AcrossTheCourt
Website; advanced stats based with a few studies:
http://ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt.blogspot.com
Website; advanced stats based with a few studies:
http://ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt.blogspot.com
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13
Jaivl wrote:Baller2014 wrote:Regular season offensive impact. Sure, Kobe is a better ballhandler than Karl Malone. So is Dominique Wilkins or Jason Kidd, but that doesn’t make them better offensive players. Karl Malone’s awesome RS offensive performances just have to be ahead of Kobe. Offensive impact is not about balancing different artificial skill sets like shooting v.s dribbling, it’s about impact on that end of the court. Shaq was a worse dribbling and passer than Kobe, but he was clearly a more impactful offensive player.
Shaq was such a dominant inside presence that makes for his lack of other offensive atributes. Karl is not. Kobe is better than him at everything on the offensive part of the game (well, not everything, Malone is obviously a better offensive rebounder, screen setter and roll man, but I think you all understand my point).
When it comes to the RS, this clearly isn't true. Malone was a high-volume, high-efficiency scorer who rates out better pretty well across the board, and whose team success as far as team offense goes aligns well with that fact.
Kobe's advantage is in the PS, but in the RS, he looks noticeably less effective.
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colts18 wrote:Oscar got voted in. I still don't see how he was better than Nash. During their primes, Nash was a better offensive player, by a decent margin too. I don't think Oscar's slight defensive lead plus his rebounding is enough to overcome that gap. Nash is top 5 offensive player with a case for GOAT. I don't see Oscar having a case for GOAT offensive player.
Oscar has already been voted in, and I know we don't have a ton of information on him defensively, but I don't see how claiming he only had a "slight defensive lead" over nash is accurate. The suns defensively were merely average to slightly below average during nash's prime, but he's always been a weak defender. I don't think there's any question about that.
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Clyde Frazier wrote:
Oscar has already been voted in, and I know we don't have a ton of information on him defensively, but I don't see how claiming he only had a "slight defensive lead" over nash is accurate. The suns defensively were merely average to slightly below average during nash's prime, but he's always been a weak defender. I don't think there's any question about that.
Oscar's teams were consistently among the worst defensively of that era. Nash's teams were average defensively during his peak years (05-07)
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I'm leaning real far towards Kobe
For a 5 year prime I think only Moses and Mikan are clearly ahead
Kobe far surpasses them in longevity. There only Karl malone probably has an edge
Five rings - here only Mikan is in the paragraph. Kobe had 30% usage in 2 of his shaq playoff years
I'll wait on my official vote - but I'm definitely leaning one way
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For a 5 year prime I think only Moses and Mikan are clearly ahead
Kobe far surpasses them in longevity. There only Karl malone probably has an edge
Five rings - here only Mikan is in the paragraph. Kobe had 30% usage in 2 of his shaq playoff years
I'll wait on my official vote - but I'm definitely leaning one way
Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums
Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13
colts18 wrote:Clyde Frazier wrote:
Oscar has already been voted in, and I know we don't have a ton of information on him defensively, but I don't see how claiming he only had a "slight defensive lead" over nash is accurate. The suns defensively were merely average to slightly below average during nash's prime, but he's always been a weak defender. I don't think there's any question about that.
Oscar's teams were consistently among the worst defensively of that era. Nash's teams were average defensively during his peak years (05-07)
I guess it was Nash's defensive impact what elevated those awful defensive teams to average, because guards have the most impact in a defense.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13
DQuinn1575 wrote:I'm leaning real far towards Kobe
For a 5 year prime I think only Moses and Mikan are clearly ahead
Kobe far surpasses them in longevity. There only Karl malone probably has an edge
Five rings - here only Mikan is in the paragraph. Kobe had 30% usage in 2 of his shaq playoff years
I'll wait on my official vote - but I'm definitely leaning one way
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What about Dr J?
Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13
tsherkin wrote:When it comes to the RS, this clearly isn't true. Malone was a high-volume, high-efficiency scorer who rates out better pretty well across the board, and whose team success as far as team offense goes aligns well with that fact.
Kobe's advantage is in the PS, but in the RS, he looks noticeably less effective.
Don't agree at all. Malone having a very strong offensive contributor in Stockton certainly helped his teams' offensive numbers (which weren't that great). In fact Kobe led similar offenses playing with Odom + crap.
Kobe's already better on O in the RS, in the PO the advantage becomes more clear. If I were to make a case for Malone, I'd definitely focus on the defensive side of the game.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13
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I think the advantage Karl Malone got from Stockton is no greater than the advantage Kobe got from; a GOAT coach candidate, Shaq creating open space, very good team mates overall, and most importantly the rule changes from 05 onwards (I don't think it's a coincidence his best TS% run comes right after that happens, from 06-10). RS stats suggest a clear offensive advantage to Malone.
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Baller2014 wrote:DQuinn1575 wrote:I'm leaning real far towards Kobe
For a 5 year prime I think only Moses and Mikan are clearly ahead
Kobe far surpasses them in longevity. There only Karl malone probably has an edge
Five rings - here only Mikan is in the paragraph. Kobe had 30% usage in 2 of his shaq playoff years
I'll wait on my official vote - but I'm definitely leaning one way
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What about Dr J?
Make a case doc was better and don't use the fact that doc is (deservedly) probably the most beloved player in the top 100 and kobe an awful person except when he plays for team USA
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13
DQuinn1575 wrote:Baller2014 wrote:DQuinn1575 wrote:I'm leaning real far towards Kobe
For a 5 year prime I think only Moses and Mikan are clearly ahead
Kobe far surpasses them in longevity. There only Karl malone probably has an edge
Five rings - here only Mikan is in the paragraph. Kobe had 30% usage in 2 of his shaq playoff years
I'll wait on my official vote - but I'm definitely leaning one way
Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums
What about Dr J?
Make a case doc was better and don't use the fact that doc is (deservedly) probably the most beloved player in the top 100 and kobe an awful person except when he plays for team USA
Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums
Team success is pretty close. Erving got more MVP love. He was a fantastic scorer in his own right, a better rebounder and defender... The argument is there.
The counterargument here is "what's the pro Kobe argument without saying ringzzzzz?"
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13
To Oscar's credit he looks like a good defensive player from the film I've seen as a young and old player.
I just didn't think he was better than Kobe in that area. But right now I'm debating Kobe and Karl Malone.
I'm going to play devils advocate for Moses Malone against Karl and see how he holds up. but I think David Robinson is likely going to compare better than Moses though and even though I think DRob is comparable to Karl, I've seen Malone arguably dominate Robinson in the playoffs and guard him defensively. I think Karl Malone was mentally stronger than DRob even though both would get worse in the playoffs.
I think West and Kobe are very similar (their edges on each other wash out imo) but Kobe is more athletic and played better competition imo.
I just didn't think he was better than Kobe in that area. But right now I'm debating Kobe and Karl Malone.
I'm going to play devils advocate for Moses Malone against Karl and see how he holds up. but I think David Robinson is likely going to compare better than Moses though and even though I think DRob is comparable to Karl, I've seen Malone arguably dominate Robinson in the playoffs and guard him defensively. I think Karl Malone was mentally stronger than DRob even though both would get worse in the playoffs.
I think West and Kobe are very similar (their edges on each other wash out imo) but Kobe is more athletic and played better competition imo.
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There's a pretty long series of posts about Dr J in my OP you can read.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13
Charles Barkley
The only player to win an Mvp over Jordan in his absolute prime.
Also, if we’re making cases for Malone I should probally put a post about the power forward that I rank above both Malone and Garnett. One of the single most efficient and effective scorers in Nba history.
Career Leaders and Records for Offensive Rating
1. Chris Paul 122.44 (G)
2. Reggie Miller 121.48 (SG)
3. Magic Johnson* 120.79 (PG-Point F)
4. John Stockton* 120.55 (PG)
5. Kiki Vandeweghe 119.49 (SF-SG)
6. Sidney Moncrief 119.40 (CG-PG)
7. Charles Barkley* 119.31 (PF)
SHOT MADE/MISS DIFFERENTIAL STAT-
(minimum 15,000 shot attempts)
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: +3,367.5
2. Shaquille O'Neal: +3,200.5
3. Wilt Chamberlain: +1,865
4. Charles Barkley: +1,434
NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating
1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 26.91
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Dwyane Wade 25.65
7. Bob Pettit* 25.35
8. Chris Paul 25.22
9. Tim Duncan 24.84
10. Neil Johnston* 24.63
11. Charles Barkley* 24.63
NBA & ABA Career Playoff Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating
1. Michael Jordan* 28.59
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. LeBron James 26.31
4. Shaquille O'Neal 26.12
5. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
6. Tim Duncan 25.43
7. Dirk Nowitzki 24.75
8. Tracy McGrady 24.66
9. Dwyane Wade 24.56
10. Charles Barkley* 24.18
Nba all time career leaders in True Shooting %
1. Cedric Maxwell .6294
2. Artis Gilmore .6227
3. Dave Twardzik .6184
4. James Donaldson .6177
5. Adrian Dantley .6166
6. Tyson Chandler .6166
7. Reggie Miler .6139
8. Charles Barkley .6120
Most seasons with a 2 point percentage of 60% or more ( playing at least 60 games)
1 Artis Gilmore 1981 1986 6
2 Charles Barkley 1987 1991 5
3 Tyson Chandler 2007 2013 5
4 Wilt Chamberlain 1967 1973 3
The common theme you see in a lot of these efficiency stats, is that role players who have a lot of baskets created for them are near the top. However, with Barkley you have a player near the top in all these effiency stats, who at the same time was one of the single most double teamed players in nba history.
Charles Barkley playoff games
Charles Barkley – 1 (50 point playoff game)
Charles Barkley- 5 (40 point playoff game)
Charles Barkley- 28 (30 point playoff games)
For comparison Kevin Garnett has only scored 30 points in 9 playoff games.
The more I watch of Barkley and Garnett, the more I'm convinced that the gap between them offensively, is just as substantial as the gap between them defensively. With Barkley you literally have a 6'4 power foward, scoring the ball with Shaq level efficiency during his prime.
For four straight years during his prime he led the league in True shooting percentage.
1986-1987- .660
1987-1988- .665
1988-1989- .653
1989-1990- .661
For comparison sake, Kevin Garnett does not have a single season of 60 TS% or better. Whiles Barkley is ranked #9 in career TS% and has a career TS% of .6120, Kevin Garnett is ranked #193 all time with a TS% of only .5472 for his career.
And he was doing this whiles being one of the most double teamed players in nba history.There's literally less than a handful of players in nba history who have been able to score as much at as high an efficiency against both playoff and regular season defenses as Charles Barkley. The only guys who have, have already been voted in as top 5 players in this project.
Also I forgot to add on, just how good Charles Barkley was on the offensive glass. For three straight seasons he led the league in offensive rebounds
1986-1987- 390 offensive rebounds
1987-1988- 385 offensive rebounds
1988-1989- 403 offensive rebounds
For his career he's ranked 6th all time in offensive rebounds
1. Moses Malone -7382
2. Artis Gilmore - 4816
3. Robert Parish -4598
4. Buck Williams- 4526
5. Dennis Rodman-4329
6. Charles Barkley- 4260
This is even more impressive considering he only played a 15 year career, and a lot of those weren't even in his prime.
Spoiler:
The only player to win an Mvp over Jordan in his absolute prime.
Also, if we’re making cases for Malone I should probally put a post about the power forward that I rank above both Malone and Garnett. One of the single most efficient and effective scorers in Nba history.
Career Leaders and Records for Offensive Rating
1. Chris Paul 122.44 (G)
2. Reggie Miller 121.48 (SG)
3. Magic Johnson* 120.79 (PG-Point F)
4. John Stockton* 120.55 (PG)
5. Kiki Vandeweghe 119.49 (SF-SG)
6. Sidney Moncrief 119.40 (CG-PG)
7. Charles Barkley* 119.31 (PF)
SHOT MADE/MISS DIFFERENTIAL STAT-
(minimum 15,000 shot attempts)
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: +3,367.5
2. Shaquille O'Neal: +3,200.5
3. Wilt Chamberlain: +1,865
4. Charles Barkley: +1,434
NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating
1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 26.91
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Dwyane Wade 25.65
7. Bob Pettit* 25.35
8. Chris Paul 25.22
9. Tim Duncan 24.84
10. Neil Johnston* 24.63
11. Charles Barkley* 24.63
NBA & ABA Career Playoff Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating
1. Michael Jordan* 28.59
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. LeBron James 26.31
4. Shaquille O'Neal 26.12
5. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
6. Tim Duncan 25.43
7. Dirk Nowitzki 24.75
8. Tracy McGrady 24.66
9. Dwyane Wade 24.56
10. Charles Barkley* 24.18
Nba all time career leaders in True Shooting %
1. Cedric Maxwell .6294
2. Artis Gilmore .6227
3. Dave Twardzik .6184
4. James Donaldson .6177
5. Adrian Dantley .6166
6. Tyson Chandler .6166
7. Reggie Miler .6139
8. Charles Barkley .6120
Most seasons with a 2 point percentage of 60% or more ( playing at least 60 games)
1 Artis Gilmore 1981 1986 6
2 Charles Barkley 1987 1991 5
3 Tyson Chandler 2007 2013 5
4 Wilt Chamberlain 1967 1973 3
The common theme you see in a lot of these efficiency stats, is that role players who have a lot of baskets created for them are near the top. However, with Barkley you have a player near the top in all these effiency stats, who at the same time was one of the single most double teamed players in nba history.
Charles Barkley playoff games
Charles Barkley – 1 (50 point playoff game)
Charles Barkley- 5 (40 point playoff game)
Charles Barkley- 28 (30 point playoff games)
For comparison Kevin Garnett has only scored 30 points in 9 playoff games.
The more I watch of Barkley and Garnett, the more I'm convinced that the gap between them offensively, is just as substantial as the gap between them defensively. With Barkley you literally have a 6'4 power foward, scoring the ball with Shaq level efficiency during his prime.
For four straight years during his prime he led the league in True shooting percentage.
1986-1987- .660
1987-1988- .665
1988-1989- .653
1989-1990- .661
For comparison sake, Kevin Garnett does not have a single season of 60 TS% or better. Whiles Barkley is ranked #9 in career TS% and has a career TS% of .6120, Kevin Garnett is ranked #193 all time with a TS% of only .5472 for his career.
And he was doing this whiles being one of the most double teamed players in nba history.There's literally less than a handful of players in nba history who have been able to score as much at as high an efficiency against both playoff and regular season defenses as Charles Barkley. The only guys who have, have already been voted in as top 5 players in this project.
Also I forgot to add on, just how good Charles Barkley was on the offensive glass. For three straight seasons he led the league in offensive rebounds
1986-1987- 390 offensive rebounds
1987-1988- 385 offensive rebounds
1988-1989- 403 offensive rebounds
For his career he's ranked 6th all time in offensive rebounds
1. Moses Malone -7382
2. Artis Gilmore - 4816
3. Robert Parish -4598
4. Buck Williams- 4526
5. Dennis Rodman-4329
6. Charles Barkley- 4260
This is even more impressive considering he only played a 15 year career, and a lot of those weren't even in his prime.
Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13
Baller2014 wrote:I think the advantage Karl Malone got from Stockton is no greater than the advantage Kobe got from; a GOAT coach candidate, Shaq creating open space, very good team mates overall, and most importantly the rule changes from 05 onwards (I don't think it's a coincidence his best TS% run comes right after that happens, from 06-10). RS stats suggest a clear offensive advantage to Malone.
This is interesting.
I'm going to compare Kobe without Phil and Shaq (the down team success years) as an individual player and try to find any year Malone didn't have great team support.
Let's not forget, Karl had Stockton and HOF coach Jerry Sloan for almost his entire prime career. He even had a dominate defensive center in Mark Eaton (Karl could hit jumpers so offensively I think the fit is okay too)
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13
tsherkin wrote:
Team success is pretty close. Erving got more MVP love. He was a fantastic scorer in his own right, a better rebounder and defender... The argument is there.
The counterargument here is "what's the pro Kobe argument without saying ringzzzzz?"
Out of curiosity, what proof is there that Erving was a better defensive player?
Not saying he isn't, but every time I see film of him he doesn't look impressive on that end. Any game film examples or playoff series that come to mind?