Worse Finals Performance: 04 Kobe or 11 LeBron?

[colts18]

Which one was worse?

[Melodabeast]

One guy played one of the weakest Finals defenses in the last 30 years. The Mavs weren't even in the top 5 in defensive rating.

The other played the best defense in history.

The 04 Pistons had a defensive rating 91.9 after the Rasheed Wallace trade. That's -10.9 relative to league average.



Meanwhile, the Mavs were...-2.3.

The Lakers four defeats came by an average margin of 13 points a game.

Each of the first five games of the 2011 Finals came down to the very wire.

How is this even arguable?

LeBron single-handedly cost his team the Championship. Games 1-5 were all very close. He plays average ball and the Heat win.

Kobe shot awful against the best defense ever in a series where the Lakers got blown out the **** out. He puts up his usual numbers and the Lakers STILL easily lose that series.

It's not even close. LeBron's series was easily worse.

[te887848]

I would say Kobe's was worse. He intentionally stole shots from another more dominant player to the detriment of his team.

LeBron's problem was being too passive, but it's not like he was hogging the ball and obviously gunning for the Finals MVP rather than the title because he didn't want his teammate to win it.

It was an absolutely abominable display of teamwork (or lack thereof) by Kobe.

[JeepCSC]

Kobe's was uglier, Lebron's more inexplicable. Lebron's was just harder to watch in real-time because the series was much closer.

[Quotatious]

I'd say Kobe played worse, and I think his chucking (22.6 PPG on 22.6 FGAs...on 45.6% TS, including 38% FG and 4/23 from beyond the arc, and he couldn't even get to the line nearly as well as he usually did - just 5 FTA a game, despite shooting 23/25 on those) probably hurt his team more than LeBron's apparent unwillingness to put a heavier burden on his shoulders. His defense also wasn't very impressive. Sure, all of the Laker players except Shaq were horrible in that series, but I really think they should've gone to Shaq more often. He was rolling offensively with the Pistons defense being pretty lax (Ben Wallace often defending him without double teams, and basically all teams doubled prime Shaq, a lot) - it was just a very smart strategy by Larry Brown - let Shaq get his, and try to lock down other players, including Kobe - it certainly panned out, just fine for them.

Even Kobe's all-around game wasn't really at his usual level - for example he averaged more turnovers than assists in that series, and was generally uninterested in playing true team ball, instead tried to get out of the shooting slump for the entire series - love it or hate it - that's who Kobe Bryant is - he'll shoot the basketball - if he's hot, it's great, if he's cold, you can sometimes just scratch your head. He's just very, very stubborn.

Meanwhile, LeBron was quite the opposite - he was certainly too passive offensively. but at least his efficiency wasn't that bad (54% TS), he didn't hurt his team with a ton of missed FGAs, and his all-around game, other than scoring and drawing fouls, was at his usual level, plus him being too passive is at least slightly understandable (not much, and I'm absolutely not trying to make an excuse for him but still a bit), because he had two other stars on his team - Wade and Bosh, and one of them played really well.

2007 LeBron would fit well in this comparison, too, although I think the OP probably wanted to use a template here - the template being Shaq/Kobe as 1A/1B on the Lakers, LeBron/Wade 1A/1B on the Heat, and one guy (Shaq and Wade) heavily outplaying his other star teammate. Well, at least that's the impression I get.

[D Nice]

Kobe's was uglier, Lebron's more inexplicable. Lebron's was just harder to watch in real-time because the series was much closer.

Hah, so succinct, this perfectly encapsulates how I feel.

[KyletheDingbat]

Well Kobe drove Shaq so crazy that Shaq punched him at half time in one of the games so there's that. Lebron didn't anything to splinter his team in the middle of the Finals I don't think. Kobe was out of line in 2004. Bron was abducted by aliens and replaced by a malfunctioning robot so you can't really hold it against him.

[Louie_Ruckuz]

Lebron completely disappeared, how can you justify that?

[Melodabeast]

Defensive rating:
Pistons--91.9
Mavs--105.0

[Steven1562]

Lebron scored 8 points against the Mavs and disappeared in that series against a team that wasn't that great defensively .... Kobe actually had a decent game 2 against the Pistons 33 points 7 assists 4 boards and 2 steals

[Masigond]

You guys should really watch the 2011 Finals again. It's not about the Mavs' DRTG of the whole season but about their defense against the Heat, and especially against LeBron. They were excellent in preventing LeBron from playing up to his strengths. They were throwing fresh bodies at him (Marion, Stevenson, Kidd) while clogging the paint. If LeBron were Kobe, he would have been shooting nevertheless, and it would have been the same mess like with Kobe's struggles in the 2004 Finals.

With the difference that Kobe really wanted to take these shots. After all these years he wanted to be "The Man" who'd win the title almost by himself. And he absolutely destroyed his own team's rhythm doing so.

So what do you prefer? A guy seemingly being passive as he was robbed of his strengths (and yes: I do think that LeBron was too passive. He should have been trying to find other ways than just letting Wade take over who had some good games in that series) or the other guy who was ignoring the still better teammate just to prove himself, utterly failing doing so? I think Kobe's series was worse as an easier solution for his team's struggles could have been found: Give Shaq the ball. He was still lethal once in possession (shooting >63% for the series), outscoring Kobe by 20 points on 30 less shots...

[Black Feet]

Defensive rating:
Pistons--91.9
Mavs--105.0

Lebron apologist will come up with every excuse imaginable for him, the Pistons where light years better defensively.

[D Nice]

You guys should really watch the 2011 Finals again. It's not about the Mavs' DRTG of the whole season but about their defense against the Heat, and especially against LeBron. They were excellent in preventing LeBron from playing up to his strengths. They were throwing fresh bodies at him (Marion, Stevenson, Kidd) while clogging the paint. If LeBron were Kobe, he would have been shooting nevertheless, and it would have been the same mess like with Kobe's struggles in the 2004 Finals.

With the difference that Kobe really wanted to take these shots. After all these years he wanted to be "The Man" who'd win the title almost by himself. And he absolutely destroyed his own team's rhythm doing so.

So what do you prefer? A guy seemingly being passive as he was robbed of his strengths (and yes: I do think that LeBron was too passive. He should have been trying to find other ways than just letting Wade take over who had some good games in that series) or the other guy who was ignoring the still better teammate just to prove himself, utterly failing doing so? I think Kobe's series was worse as an easier solution for his team's struggles could have been found: Give Shaq the ball. He was still lethal once in possession (shooting >63% for the series), outscoring Kobe by 20 points on 30 less shots...

This is ridiculous. There was nothing Dallas did to Lebron they weren't doing to every superstar they faced all season long. The fact that Lebron let this take him out of his game does not make Dallas a GOAT defensive team, it makes (the '11 incarnation of) Lebron mentally weak.

Not only was Detroit literally the GOAT defensive team, they were freaking cheating to keep Kobe out of the paint. THE RULES WERE CHANGED THE FOLLOWING YEAR LARGELY IN PART DUE TO THE FINALS. How has this gone un-mentioned? (It's a rhetorical question really, it's because we're talking about Kobe)

People who want Kobe to stop shooting when he's "cold" have no understanding of how probability works. Past results do not affect future outcomes unless you're dealing with an individual prone do self-doubt (aka a mentally weak player).

And Shaq was not good that series. He scored efficiently, yes. He also was non-existent on the boards and played the worst pick-and-roll defense I've ever seen any big man play AND THAT WAS DETROIT'S OFFENSIVE STAPLE. Failing to adequately contest the play the opponent runs 80% of the time is not "playing well."

Both were terrible. Not really sure who was worse, and I'm not really sure it matters. One sucking slightly more or less than the other doesn't affect the greatness of either.

Only in a Kobe thread will you see an argument for the '11 Mavericks being comparable defensively (even over the time-frame of a single series) to the '04 Pistons. This is what people are talking about when they say Kobe is irrationally hated to an extreme no other player, past or present, comes close to.

[Melodabeast]

Can't believe people buy that nonsense about Kobe "going for Finals MVP'. My God. So he was OK with Shaq getting it in 00, 2001, and 2002 but decided he was going for it in 2004.

It can't be that he was simply going up against the best defense ever, with every other player of the supporting cast outside Shaq shooting under 40% on WIDE OPEN shots, while having to chase rip around the court...that doesn't explain the poor series. No, they have to come up with some nonsense about chasing the finals mvp. Apparently these guys are mind-readers.

Can't believe these people think that force-feeding the ball to Shaq would have made any sort of difference. Shaq was already doing 27 PPG/60% TS. I guess him getting a few more shots a game would have changed that 13+ margin of defeat the lakers had in the 4 games they lost.

The game where Bryant shot 13 times in 45 minutes...the Lakers lost by 20 points and posted their worst offensive game of the series BY FAR (79.7 ORTG). Let's just ignore that. Let's just continue to repeat the same old tired narratives.

[Masigond]

I did not say that the Mavs' defense was as good as the Pistons'. I know for sure that they won due to their combination of playing better defense than the Heat as well as better offense, especially when Dirk was on the court who made the team click.

But that "the Mavs had only a 105 DRTG" argument is misleading. We are comparing LeBron to Kobe, right? Not the 2004 Lakers to the 2011 Heat. So let's concentrate on what the opponents did to those two players, and regarding only that the Mavs did an excellent job, just as the Pistons were excellent on defending Kobe. Regarding those matchups there isn't such a great gap of 91 to 105.

By the way: What do Shaq's struggles on defense have to do with Kobe shooting too much?

[Melodabeast]

I would say Kobe's was worse. He intentionally stole shots from another more dominant player to the detriment of his team.

, but it's not like he was hogging the ball and obviously gunning for the Finals MVP rather than the title because he didn't want his teammate to win it.

or the other guy who was ignoring the still better teammate just to prove himself, utterly failing doing so?

Where do these people even come with this stuff. How the hell would they even know this ****. Like I said, mind-readers man.

[Rapcity_11]

LeBron single-handedly cost his team the Championship. Games 1-5 were all very close. He plays average ball and the Heat win.

Kobe shot awful against the best defense ever in a series where the Lakers got blown out the **** out. He puts up his usual numbers and the Lakers STILL easily lose that series.

It's not even close. LeBron's series was easily worse.

I'm confused how you think how close the series was has anything to do with how Lebron and Kobe specifically played. That is completetely irrelevent to the question at hand.

[Rapcity_11]

People who want Kobe to stop shooting when he's "cold" have no understanding of how probability works. Past results do not affect future outcomes unless you're dealing with an individual prone do self-doubt (aka a mentally weak player).

That only really applies when all else is equal (say shooting FT's).

What people are saying is that Kobe was clearly ineffective and rather than reign in his game in he kept pressing. It's not about being "cold".

Only in a Kobe thread will you see an argument for the '11 Mavericks being comparable defensively (even over the time-frame of a single series) to the '04 Pistons. This is what people are talking about when they say Kobe is irrationally hated to an extreme no other player, past or present, comes close to.

Nobody said that dude.

This is why Kobe backers get labelled so sensitive.

[D Nice]

People who want Kobe to stop shooting when he's "cold" have no understanding of how probability works. Past results do not affect future outcomes unless you're dealing with an individual prone do self-doubt (aka a mentally weak player).

That only really applies when all else is equal (say shooting FT's).

What people are saying is that Kobe was clearly ineffective and rather than reign in his game in he kept pressing. It's not about being "cold".

Only in a Kobe thread will you see an argument for the '11 Mavericks being comparable defensively (even over the time-frame of a single series) to the '04 Pistons. This is what people are talking about when they say Kobe is irrationally hated to an extreme no other player, past or present, comes close to.

Nobody said that dude.

This is why Kobe backers get labelled so sensitive.

He made a post outlining Dallas's "special" approach to defending Lebron (which was actually the same exact way the defended superstar wings all season, particularly all post-season long) as a means of undercutting the defensive chasm that exists between the Mavs and the Pistons. The Maverics were just another good defensive team. The '04 Pistons are the greatest defensive team of all time, and on top of that they were abusing gaps in officiating that were corrected the very next season by and large due to the fact Detroit made it clear the extent to which the League's ruleset could be exploited.

The 14-point DRTG separation is absolutely indicative of the gap that exists between the two teams. Swapping out a past-prime Shawn Marion with an ancient Jason Kidd and Deshawn freaking Stevenson on Lebron does nothing to bridge this gap in efficacy, no matter how badly you guys want it to.

[Rapcity_11]

People who want Kobe to stop shooting when he's "cold" have no understanding of how probability works. Past results do not affect future outcomes unless you're dealing with an individual prone do self-doubt (aka a mentally weak player).

That only really applies when all else is equal (say shooting FT's).

What people are saying is that Kobe was clearly ineffective and rather than reign in his game in he kept pressing. It's not about being "cold".

Only in a Kobe thread will you see an argument for the '11 Mavericks being comparable defensively (even over the time-frame of a single series) to the '04 Pistons. This is what people are talking about when they say Kobe is irrationally hated to an extreme no other player, past or present, comes close to.

Nobody said that dude.

This is why Kobe backers get labelled so sensitive.

He made a post outlining Dallas's "special" approach to defending Lebron (which was actually the same exact way the defended superstar wings all season, particularly all post-season long) as a means of undercutting the defensive chasm that exists between the Mavs and the Pistons. The Maverics were just another good defensive team. The '04 Pistons are the greatest defensive team of all time, and on top of that they were abusing gaps in officiating that were corrected the very next season by and large due to the fact Detroit made it clear the extent to which the League's ruleset could be exploited.

The 14-point DRTG separation is absolutely indicative of the gap that exists between the two teams. Swapping out a past-prime Shawn Marion with an ancient Jason Kidd and Deshawn freaking Stevenson on Lebron does nothing to bridge this gap in efficacy, no matter how badly you guys want it to.

The Russell C's certainly have a case for all-time best, no

All it sounds like to me was a guy explaining why in that matchup the Mavs weren't a typical 105 Drtg team. Which could be true considering 105 is their average not how they fare in all matchups.

Again, nobody said comparable defensively.