Moses Malone out of the top 20? Why?

[Joao Saraiva]

I did not see Moses Malone play. But he has some great accodales and stats. We're almost finishing the top 20 in RealGM all time list and it seems like he can be out of it.

Can some guys who have watched him play give me some insight on why he is being ranked "so low"? Multiple time MVP, 6 seasons leading the league in rebounds, NBA champion, finals MVP, a lot of seasons arround 25 PER... seems to me like a great candidate for a top 20 player of all time.

[SactoKingsFan]

He's not out of the top 20. Moses will get voted in at 19 or 20.

[ushvinder88]

Moses was before my time, but I have watched alot of footage of him and he impresses me based on the eye test. Hes getting underrated on this board because he doesnt have the fancy advanced stats metrics that marks like and he peaked before the bird/magic/mj era. The late 70s-early 80s era gets very underrated on this board, while the 1990s gets vastly overrated. Find as much footage as you can of moses from 1978-1982, he was getting the better of kareem on a consistent basis in this time period, 1983 playoffs isnt the only time he outplayed kareem. Most posters on this forum didnt watch moses, so they are just going to find ways to rank every player in the 90s-00s era above him, I find it as a double standard because if you overrate current players, these same posters will call u a noob.

[Basketballefan]

He's being ranked so low because of biases/ignorance.

3 mvps, Fmvp, ring as the man, incredible peak of 31 15, and several seasons as the league's best player.

Easily top 18, people just need to deal with it.

[penbeast0]

I watched them both, had tickets in Washington when he was with the Bullets so even got to see him all close up and sweaty, and loved him as a player. He was everything I like . . . physical, a maximum effort guy, did the dirty work. But David Robinson was better; so was Hakeem, and probably even Ewing though Ewing didn't have the defensive impact of the other two. The question then is how much weight you give to Moses's extra years and playoff performances since his dominant period wasn't appreciably longer than those of the 3 great centers I mentioned above.

It's a tough call; as have most of these have been since around #4. I am trying to keep an open mind and listen to the arguments. I have been convinced to rate Duncan and Dirk appreciably higher than I came into the project thinking they would rate. I have not been convinced by the Moses arguments that he belongs over Dirk, Karl, or DRob so far . . . I have been convinced he belongs over Barkley (now there I might be biased; I don't like bad team guys who blow off practices except for maybe Wilt). Haven't heard arguments comparing him to Ewing, McHale, Pettit, or Mikan yet; without some convincing evidence, I rate him over any of the other bigs after Robinson but again, I am open to listening.

I don't think I have the biases you are suggesting (people never do though). I grew up in the 70s and watched more 70s/80s ball than any other era; probably have a clearer idea of how good those players are than of those I see today. I must admit I find the arguments here unconvincing, Gee . . . everyone's biased against my guy, he beat 80s Kareem head to head so he must be better than someone else who never played Kareem and any numbers that lean differently are just stupid advanced stats that I am not bothering to understand so I can refute them . . . that's pretty weak stuff.

[Winsome Gerbil]

I don't want to comment too much more than I already have on the obvious historical problems with this Top 100 project. I'll just note that Bird is out of the Top 10, Moses is out of the Top 20 etc. in exactly one place: here. And its largely done for no more logical reason than how else can we all fit our own favorite current players in the Top 20?

20 years from now I suspect a new generation of realgmers will be doing the same sort of historical revisionism to fit in their own current favs/guys they saw. Well that Dirk guy was great, sure, but look at those rebounding and shotblocking numbers! Only 1 MVP and 1 title? Surely we can nudge him on down the list just a little to make room for Chang Li and Rudolph Neiderheim III.

Of course then again, since I chose not to wade in and get my hands dirty in those threads, don't know how much I can complain.

[ushvinder88]

He was also getting the better of kareem from 78-81 and i also accept the fact that robinson's advanced stats dont translate into the playoffs, and moses is a much better scorer in the post and hes more difficult to contain one on one. I see Moses dominating robinson in a head to head scenario. Would robinson be able to take a 41-41 team all the way to the nba finals as the top guy of the team, no I dont think he would. Put d-rob on that team and he gets bounced out in the first round.

If Karl Malone can dominate d-rob head to head, I am supposed to believe moses would not get physical and tool david in the post, not buying it.

From 1985 to mid 1990, moses and hakeem played each other 12 times and moses outscored and outrebounded olajuwon in this time frame. Thier field goal percentage was a wash, win-loss record was split even. The games after that dont matter because moses became an ancient role player. The fact that a past his prime moses had games in 1988 and 1989 where he outplayed hakeem just speaks volume as to how underrated he really is. From 1985-1990, he either outplayed hakeem or the numbers are essentially a wash, this was a past it moses. Amazing how he is getting shafted on this board.

[Texas Chuck]

Way too many of these "why didn't player X go where I think he should go" threads. Followed by accusations of everyone else's biases. I wonder why no one stops and thinks that just maybe the consensus is a more accurate reflection than their personal opinion.

By far my least favorite part of the project has been the whining and threatening to quit, or calling the project a farce, or accusing the entire board of this bias or that one. Im sorry you favorite player isnt as highly thought of as you'd like. Don't really know what to tell you.

[Basketballefan]

He was also getting the better of kareem from 78-81 and i also accept the fact that robinson's advanced stats dont translate into the playoffs, and moses is a much better scorer in the post and hes more difficult to contain one on one. I see Moses dominating robinson in a head to head scenario. Would robinson be able to take a 41-41 team all the way to the nba finals as the top guy of the team, no I dont think he would. Put d-rob on that team and he gets bounced out in the first round.

I've pointed out how posters took Dirk over Karl for being a better playoff performer, and then the same ones take Drob over Moses. It's almost hypocritical to me.

[ushvinder88]

He was also getting the better of kareem from 78-81 and i also accept the fact that robinson's advanced stats dont translate into the playoffs, and moses is a much better scorer in the post and hes more difficult to contain one on one. I see Moses dominating robinson in a head to head scenario. Would robinson be able to take a 41-41 team all the way to the nba finals as the top guy of the team, no I dont think he would. Put d-rob on that team and he gets bounced out in the first round.

I've pointed out how posters took Dirk over Karl for being a better playoff performer, and then the same ones take Drob over Moses. It's almost hypocritical to me.

It is hypocritical, d-rob's defensive advantage is more than nullified by the fact that he is also much easier to contain and shut down 1 on 1. What good is his defensive advantage if he could never take his team to the nba finals? Moses took a scrub team in 81, robinson would have never been able to do that.

In 1978 and 1979, moses malone outscored kareem in thier head to head meetings, in 1980 he completely dominated kareem in thier head to head matchups. The full stats arent available, but I am more than willing to bet that he was also outrebounding kareem in 78 and 79 too. Yet he is being ranked below dirk, d-rob and kg?

In November of 1986, 3rd year hakeem olajuwon played moses malone and moses pissed all over him. Completely dominated olajuwon in this game, its flat out scary that hes gonna be out of the top 20 within 5 years. In 1988 and 1989, they play each other 4 times and moses outscores, outrebounds and shoots a higher field goal percentage than olajuwon.

[Joao Saraiva]

Way too many of these "why didn't player X go where I think he should go" threads. Followed by accusations of everyone else's biases. I wonder why no one stops and thinks that just maybe the consensus is a more accurate reflection than their personal opinion.

By far my least favorite part of the project has been the whining and threatening to quit, or calling the project a farce, or accusing the entire board of this bias or that one. Im sorry you favorite player isnt as highly thought of as you'd like. Don't really know what to tell you.

Not sure what you mean by that. Is Moses Malone my fav player? Did you even read the thread? I'm just wondering why he is not top 20, if people don't think he is I'm just wondering why, since I never saw him play but he has a ton of accodales, great stats, etc.

I'm actually trying to get opinions from people who watched him play to see what they have to say about it.

If you don't like these threads, then GTFO. Don't need to post anything that is not contributing to the actual discussion.

PS: On bold: I don't have a position for Moses, I don't do all time lists, and I never complained about anyone's position about Moses. I guess being a mod just gives you the green light to come here and make this kind of statements. It is what it is.

[Texas Chuck]

If you don't like these threads, then GTFO. Don't need to post anything that is not contributing to the actual discussion.

PS: On bold: I don't have a position for Moses, I don't do all time lists, and I never complained about anyone's position about Moses. I guess being a mod just gives you the green light to come here and make this kind of statements. It is what it is.

Im actually participating in the top 100 discussion. I don't see you around so much. Not sure why you should be accusing me of not contributing?

Im not a mod of this forum. Im not posting as a mod of this forum. I am however a regular of this forum and as such felt free to express my distaste for this type of thread and the replies they typically attract--accusing everyone else of some agenda or bias or inconsistency.

If you disagree with the group then go join the discussion. Bring some new information and insight. Most guys in the project have open minds. But to just come make a thread questioning the collective wisdom of the people actually participating while stating in your OP you don't really even know much about Moses other than some stats rubs me the wrong way.

And beside that my beef is less with your OP(tho I think it needless) than it is with some of the responses accusing the entire group of having some sort of agenda. It doesn't even make sense.

[ceiling raiser]

I did not see Moses Malone play. But he has some great accodales and stats. We're almost finishing the top 20 in RealGM all time list and it seems like he can be out of it.

Can some guys who have watched him play give me some insight on why he is being ranked "so low"? Multiple time MVP, 6 seasons leading the league in rebounds, NBA champion, finals MVP, a lot of seasons arround 25 PER... seems to me like a great candidate for a top 20 player of all time.

I can't speak for anybody else, but I don't consider accolades and box score stats (including stats derived from box scores) when evaluating players. They both have their uses, but if I'm trying to evaluate player "goodness", I don't think they're going to help me answer the questions I ask of myself when comparing any two guys. I understand this may not be the most popular stance, but unless I'm relatively certain about the utility of a measure, I won't feel comfortable using it in my analysis. I do look at some of the impact measures (RAPM, WOWY, relative team ORtg/DRtg, etc.), but those are useful only after I have a great handle on what a guy's role was, and a good feel for his style of play.

Ideally, I'd watch as much tape as possible, to get a great idea of how every player up for voting has played (in addition to reading first-hand accounts from people who watched them). I've tried to gather as much knowledge as possible, but when I haven't been able to gather enough knowledge of a player to form a strong opinion, I don't feel comfortable casting a vote (I've abstained a few times). You can never watch enough old games, but I think it's important to make an effort to do so, as you need to add some qualitative analysis to the impact numbers we have for different players.

Again, this is just my take, and other people participating in the project (which is open to anybody who has the time to engage in the conversation, and if you find holes/inconsistencies with arguments/evidence presented, please raise your objections...we all want to learn as much as possible) all look at players from different angles. But it would seem there are enough participants who don't value accolades or box score stats highly, that Moses has fallen to this point.

Hope this helps.

[Joao Saraiva]

If you don't like these threads, then GTFO. Don't need to post anything that is not contributing to the actual discussion.

PS: On bold: I don't have a position for Moses, I don't do all time lists, and I never complained about anyone's position about Moses. I guess being a mod just gives you the green light to come here and make this kind of statements. It is what it is.

Im actually participating in the top 100 discussion. I don't see you around so much. Not sure why you should be accusing me of not contributing?

Im not a mod of this forum. Im not posting as a mod of this forum. I am however a regular of this forum and as such felt free to express my distaste for this type of thread and the replies they typically attract--accusing everyone else of some agenda or bias or inconsistency.

If you disagree with the group then go join the discussion. Bring some new information and insight. Most guys in the project have open minds. But to just come make a thread questioning the collective wisdom of the people actually participating while stating in your OP you don't really even know much about Moses other than some stats rubs me the wrong way.

And beside that my beef is less with your OP(tho I think it needless) than it is with some of the responses accusing the entire group of having some sort of agenda. It doesn't even make sense.

I accused you of not contributing in this thread, not in the top 100 project. The reason I don't post often in there is because I did not watch NBA until the late 80s (and even late 80s and early 90s was on tape), so I might be biased towards the guys I've seen playing. I still like to read the discussion.

I didn't say I disagree with the group. I have no opinion on Moses rank like I said, I was just trying to see what people who have watched him play have to say about it, since other guys with 3 MVPs are top 10 or very close to it. That's just it. Just trying to get information about Moses.

[magicmerl]

Did you even read the thread? I'm just wondering why he is not top 20, if people don't think he is I'm just wondering why, since I never saw him play but he has a ton of accodales, great stats, etc.

You've said twice now that Moses is voted out of the top 20. This is not true. Why are you perpetuating falsehoods?

Moses is a viable candidate at #18 and in all likelihood the favourite at #19.

The obvious reason for why any candidate falls is that people like other people more than them.

[tbomb25]

He's no less than 15....anything outside of that is rediculous....he dominated Kareem in his prime....he really might be underrated...

[ThaRegul8r]

How about waiting until the top 20 is actually completed before asking why a player isn't in it?

[magicmerl]

He's no less than 15....anything outside of that is rediculous....he dominated Kareem in his prime....he really might be underrated...

Right, so then the question becomes, who do you think he should be rated over and why?