RealGM Top 100 List #21

[penbeast0]

CENTERS
George Mikan who is the only player left that was the undisputed best player in basketball for a reasonably long stretch of time (5 years +). But, his era was the last vestige of white only, no shot-clock basketball, and he started to decline by age 25 which is really early; rule changes that other players could deal with seem to have been a bigger problem for him which is why I favor Pettit over Mikan. Patrick Ewing and Artis Gilmore should get mentioned here as well; I used to favor Gilmore over Ewing but have been having second thoughts though I still think he peaked higher in 1975.

FORWARDS
Pettit, Baylor, McHale, Pippen, Havlicek, Rodman, and even Kevin Durant. I have many times compared Pettit to Baylor, and it always comes out Pettit, he was from an earlier era where he was more dominant than Baylor, he stayed a great player throughout Baylor's peak and it was basically pick em between the two through 65; Pettit has the edge on Baylor basically on health, defense, court intelligence, and the type of game that each of them played. He was a DOMINANT player, double MVP, and even in a weaker era like the 50s, none of the other top forward candidates was ever more than a top cog in a deep balanced team except bascially Durant who, with more time, might move ahead of Pettit and Baylor but isn't there yet.

GUARDS
Wade or Frazier. Wade is the most explosive scorer and plays excellent defense, Frazier didn't score as much but was an even better defender and playmaker, and even more known for stepping up and dominating 2 NBA finals. This one is very close; I lean Frazier over Wade but willing to be convinced. I see Clyde as a step up over Nash and Stockton for his ability to take over games with both his scoring and defense, over Payton, Kidd, or Isiah for his scoring efficiency and superior all around game. Both Wade and Frazier do suffer a little from short or injury riddled primes though here also, Frazier was the guy you could count on through his prime where Wade was often hurt. I hadn't put Chris Paul on this list but he should probably be considered as well, though he hasn't as yet shown me the ability to elevate his team that I've seen in Frazier and Wade despite his prettier stats than either.


Extra note on Pettit. Saw a factoid, not only is Pettit one of only 5 players to average 20 rebounds a game for a season (all from the 60s though), but he's also the only players to average over 20ppg in every season of his career (Jordan averaged "only" 20.0 in his final year). How did he score? Bill Simmons says: “Pettit had three go-to moves: a don’t-leave-me-alone 18-footer, a leaning jumper coming off screens and a reliable turnaround that Bob Ryan once called ‘monotonous.’" So he was more a stretch 4, though those ridiculous foul draw rates show that he also liked scoring in traffic.



Vote: Bob Pettit (though subject to change)

[ronnymac2]

Vote: Patrick Ewing

Came down to Ewing, Dwyane Wade, and Steve Nash for me. Wade clearly has the best peak out of anybody left (and I mean anybody), but he's only got 6 years of his peak/prime. I've included 2012 in that. 2013 and 2014 are good years. 2007 and 2008 are question marks. I don't think he'd be able to be prime Wade in the playoffs during those 2 years because of injury, and that really hurts his value. He did have a great rookie season. Probably better overall than LeBron James and Carmelo Anthony.

Nash is right there, too. His 2010 season is extraordinary, maybe his best ever. 2005 we saw him go supernova in the playoffs. 2002-2004 Nash was still probably the best offensive PG in the league. 2007 was probably his actual best year. Tremendous player with underrated longevity.

The reason I went with Ewing over Wade/Nash is because you get more career value out of him. He's got much better longevity than D-Wade and a slight edge on Nash prime vs. prime. I do believe Ewing's defense + offense (combined impact) scales up on a strong title contender at his peak/prime. We're talking about one of the great defenders in NBA history, a guy who anchored GOAT-level team defenses at his peak, and top-line defenses for nearly a decade. It is incredibly close, because I can see the argument for Wade and Nash having better peaks. Very tough.

[Basketballefan]

Vote Dwyane Wade

3 time champion
FMVP
10 time all star
2 time all First team
scoring title etc

8th all time in PER
23rd in playoff PER

All time great title run & Finals, 28 6 6 59 TS%, 35 7 4 57 TS% in the finals

All time great peak 2009: 30 5 8 57 TS%

Known for tearing up elite defenses in playoff series in his prime

27 6 6 68 TS% against Detroit pistons 06 ECF
33 6 7 65 TS% against Boston Celtics 2010 first round
ETC

[Clyde Frazier]

Don't know who i'm voting for yet, but i'll just throw this fun fact out there:

Pettit is 1 of 4 players in NBA history to avg 25+ PPG and 10+ RPG for their career in the playoffs (dirk, hakeem and baylor being the other 3).

http://bkref.com/tiny/JzVcI

I used to reference this back in the day for people who'd blatantly spew BS about dirk like "he doesn't rebound" or he "chokes in the playoffs". Pace and era may play a factor, but Pettit's still part of some small elite company right there.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I'm leaning towards Ewing myself, but I don't want to disregard Baylor either. I did look into Baylor's '62 quite a bit a few years ago, and it seems he was close to that level for a few years. As for Ewing, he was the anchor of arguably the best defense ever in '93 and '94, though that defense was obviously much more than just him and a good post scorer as well as a very good shooter out to 20 feet and a solid rebounder. I'd take Ewing at his peak in 1990 over Robinson, Karl Malone, maybe even Barkley. Mychal Thompson said at the time that ewing and Magic were neck and neck for best player in the league, and we all know what he did carrying the Knicks over a superior Boston team, and he did show some flashes of that vs a vastly superior championship Pistons team. In fact, even though Ewing never reached his '90 heights again, in general, outside of '91 which was such a lopsided 3 game series, I don't put much stock into his performance, I think Ewing was a very good playoff performer from '90-'93. He helped give prime Jordan's Bulls a serious run for their money in '92 and '93.

Ok, I'll go with Ewing for now, but am open to someone changing my mind for Baylor or maybe even one of a few candidates.

[Sasaki]

The question I have about Ewing's defense is how much of it was Ewing, and how much of it was Pat Riley? As we all know, Ewing's peak season was during 1989-90, and then the Knicks finished at 12-13 when it comes to defensive rating. Now obviously the Knicks outside Ewing were not a bunch of defensive masterminds ( though they did have Charles Oakley) and we all know from the example of KG that even an elite defensive big can struggle if his teammates are terrible.

That said, the question here that should be asked is that when we talk about Ewing's peak in 1990, what are we looking at from a defensive perspective? If Ewing's offensive and defensive peaks were not actually at the same time, how much does this limit Ewing when analyzed from the perspective of a peak player?

Also, one name that I think should be discussed as we start to trundle down the list of forwards that penbeast posted: Rick Barry. Tremendous scorer, led the Warriors to a Finals MVP ( and I wonder how much we would be discussing Wade if it wasn't for a 2006 Finals which in some eyes is a tad controversial). Was an ass and a chemistry wreck, but still has a fairly decent longevity advantage over Wade.

I will admit that I don't think Wade should be rated this high. His career is just way too short for me to take him over a list of other all-time greats at this stage,, and I don't think his peak is that much better than say, Barry. Needless to say, can be convinced ( if I can vote at this point).

[shutupandjam]

How much better do we think Ewing's impact on defense is than Pippen's? Or more broadly, how much separation is there between an elite big and the GOAT wing on defense? I think this is an interesting question with a lot of implications.

On the other side of the coin, what do we think the difference is between Pippen's offensive impact and Ewing's? I'm of the opinion that Pippen's is better, but I suspect others will choose Ewing. I'm not particularly impressed by Ewing's offense personally as I think he's somewhat of a black hole (especially compared to other great bigs) and I think Pippen's playmaking is underrated. But I'd certainly like to see some discussion here (particularly with stylistic observations rather than numbers).

[Basketballefan]

Also, one name that I think should be discussed as we start to trundle down the list of forwards that penbeast posted: Rick Barry. Tremendous scorer, led the Warriors to a Finals MVP ( and I wonder how much we would be discussing Wade if it wasn't for a 2006 Finals which in some eyes is a tad controversial). Was an ass and a chemistry wreck, but still has a fairly decent longevity advantage over Wade.

I will admit that I don't think Wade should be rated this high. His career is just way too short for me to take him over a list of other all-time greats at this stage,, and I don't think his peak is that much better than say, Barry. Needless to say, can be convinced ( if I can vote at this point).

Even if Wade didn't win that FMVP he still would have a few rings and great playoff runs along with several elite seasons.

What in the world makes Barry's peak on par with 09 Wade?

Edit: I hate when people act like the 06 Finals was the only amazing thing WAde has ever done in his career. Those suggesting these things either didn't watch him or are simply forgetting.

[90sAllDecade]

Good question shutupandjam.

I'm working on an analysis of Ewing's defense as a Knicks anchor in the RS and PO, but I haven't' analyzed Pippen yet. I may do so later.

I've always felt Ewing had a bigger impact due to being a center, and thus a better rim protector and defensive rebounder. I don't know if Pat's man defense is as good, but I can't say for sure. I do think help defense is more impactful team wise from a rim protector though.

If someone else would analyze a comparison between the two on either side of the ball it would help.

@Sasaki

I have the same question but I think Ewing was fine regardless at the moment, but definitely was helped by Riley building around him defensively. When I get done I'll post what I find.

[penbeast0]

Also, one name that I think should be discussed as we start to trundle down the list of forwards that penbeast posted: Rick Barry. Tremendous scorer, led the Warriors to a Finals MVP ( and I wonder how much we would be discussing Wade if it wasn't for a 2006 Finals which in some eyes is a tad controversial). Was an ass and a chemistry wreck, but still has a fairly decent longevity advantage over Wade.

I will admit that I don't think Wade should be rated this high. His career is just way too short for me to take him over a list of other all-time greats at this stage,, and I don't think his peak is that much better than say, Barry. Needless to say, can be convinced ( if I can vote at this point).

Barry had 1 hot playoff run. Other than that he was a monster scorer but I don't have a ton of evidence that he improved any of the teams he was one that much (though I'm open to it). His other "title" came when he got injured halfway through his first ABA season and the team didn't miss a beat.

I think also I've made it clear that character issues are a real issue with me and Rick Barry is another guy I wouldn't want on my franchise. One of the great jerks in NBA history (he would say he was just honest but for some reason it was always "honestly" praising himself and running down everyone else). Smart player otherwise, made some outstanding passes, excellent size and shooting range, didn't feel a need to work on defense .

[RSCD3_]

The interesting thing is how much of the bulls defense was affected by Scottie vs Michael

I also feel more comfortable having Ewing over pippen as I've seen a lot of defense lifted by one very good big men defender but for wings to successfully defend it takes 2 of them and they have to be elite.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[Clyde Frazier]

Still don't think wade belongs here. 11 seasons is certainly a big enough sample size to reflect on his career, but at 32 years old he was on a serious "maintenance plan" just to be able to perform "well" in the playoffs and then fizzle in the finals. He clearly has longevity issues, and that should be considered.

I think we'd have a better idea of where to consider him a few years down the line to see if he sticks in the league. Was he a factor in the heat winning the 2012 and 2013 championships? Sure, but to what extent? He was really in a great situation over the last few seasons.

[90sAllDecade]

Knicks Defense RS and PO

85-86
5th of 23 Drtg

-Ewing’s rookie year and he only played 50 games, the team jumped from 19th in Drtg to 5th.
There were other roster changes though which I haven’t fully analyzed yet to be even handed.
No Playoff berth

86-87
20th of 23 Drtg

-Ewing played 63 games, the starting center Bill Cartwright missed 32 games and a coaching change mid-season.
No playoff berth

87-88
7th of 23 Drtg
PO:
16th of 16 Drtg

-Rick Pitino takes over.
-In the playoffs the Knicks got ripped by Bird’s 80s Celtics, with a 57 win, #1 6.15 SRS and #1 Ortg. The Celtics reached the finals that year. Ewing was the best player on the Knicks and had 18.8 pts 12.8 reb 2.5 ast 1.5 stl 3.3 blk on .562 TS%
The Celtics had a 34 year old Parish and a below average defense, to be fair.

88-89
10th Drtg
PO:
9th Drtg

90-91
12th Drtg
PO:
15th Drtg

The Knicks faced and got burned by Jordan’s championship Bulls, with a 61 win, 8.57 SRS and #1 Ortg.

91-92
2nd Drtg
PO:
1st Drtg

-Ewing now had Riley building the defense around him and the Knicks dominated defensively. Despite facing a GOAT level team in the 67 win, 10.07 SRS, #1 Ortg Jordan’s Bulls. The Bulls were -4.3 in Ortg in the playoffs.

92-93
1st Drtg
PO:
8th Drtg

93-94
1st Drtg
PO:
2nd Drtg

94-95
1st Drtg
PO:
1st Drtg

95-96
4th Drtg
PO:
3rd Drtg

-Coaching change, Don Nelson then Jeff Van Gundy mid season

96-97
2nd Drtg
PO:
3rd Drtg

-Jeff Van Gundy’s first full season

97-98
4th Drtg
PO:
6th Drtg

98-99
4th Drtg
PO:
2nd Drtg

99-00
6th Drtg
PO:
5th Drtg


Ewing was the anchor of the defense for a long time and lead the Knicks in Defensive rating among players with significant minutes every year from his rookie season until the 99-00 season when Marcus Camby starts to lead with 26+ mpg when Ewing turned 37.

So 13 years as a top 10 defensive RS anchor except for an injured year and 12th ranked another, with his peak starting after Riley takes over and arguably still anchoring a top 5 ranked defense four years after he leaves.

I wondered why he didn't make more defensive teams and then I found out he lost out only to Hakeem, Robinson and Mutombo in his 90s defensive prime; and when he was a rookie or young he would tie or get edged out by Mark Eaton. That's the highest tier of defensive player quality and if he was slightly below them, with his defensive longevity is all time great level imo.

He greatly benefitted from Riley and Jeff Van Gundy, but also anchord the defense for Pitino and during the Nelson/Van Gundy transition. I think he was a dominant anchor regardless, but really learned from Riley and reached a new level.

Knick fans who know better could probably speak on this as well in case I'm wrong.

The origin of "no layups"

Dean Oliver (pioneer of NBA advanced stats, author of the seminal book "Basketball on Paper," former member of the Nuggets brain trust and current Director of Production Analytics for ESPN Stats & Information) once had a website where he wrote about basketball.

So much smart stuff there. Including, way back in 2001, a succinct little history about the "no layups" rule that's a big topic in the NBA today. Where did that style of defense come from? Oliver writes:
At the latter end of the 1980s, word went around the NBA that the way to beat the Lakers was to beat them up, to "play them physically." Laker Coach Pat Riley resented it at the time and, when his team got beat in the Finals by a Detroit Pistons team employing the strategy, Riley remembered. After a year watching the NBA from the broadcast booth (and losing pop-a-shot competitions to Bob Costas), Riley came back to coach the New York Knicks in the 1991-1992 season. He came back determined to get vengeance.

Riley’s first season with the Knicks inspired a 12-game improvement in the team. Even more eye-catching to other coaches was what happened in the playoffs. The Knicks got nowhere close to beating the Bulls in 1991 in their first round series, losing 3-0. In 1992, under Riley’s changes (to be discussed), the Knicks beat the Pistons in the first round playing better bad-boy-ball than the Bad Boys themselves. They followed it up with a physical 7-game series loss to the eventual champion Bulls, battering the heroic Michael Jordan in the process.

Riley improved the Knicks through defense. He taught them to rotate quickly and he taught them to allow nothing easy. Riley saw the league getting more physical and he decided to push it. He espoused the infamous phrase, "No layups allowed." Numerically, the Knicks’ improvement from ’91 to ’92 was 1 point offensive and 3 points defensive; the Knicks’ offensive rating (points per 100 possessions) went from 105.4 to 106.4 and its defensive rating went from 105.6 to 102.3. They did it by fouling an extra 2 times per game and sending opponents to the line an extra 3 times per game. Their opponents shooting percentage went from 47.6% to 45.8%. Their opponents started taking more 3s because they were getting beat up or double-teamed down low. Riley figured that he wouldn’t get beat with jump shots.

And the league learned.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_ ... -no-layups

[Basketballefan]

Still don't think wade belongs here. 11 seasons is certainly a big enough sample size to reflect on his career, but at 32 years old he was on a serious "maintenance plan" just to be able to perform "well" in the playoffs and then fizzle in the finals. He clearly has longevity issues, and that should be considered.

I think we'd have a better idea of where to consider him a few years down the line to see if he sticks in the league. Was he a factor in the heat winning the 2012 and 2013 championships? Sure, but to what extent? He was really in a great situation over the last few seasons.

Well Bob Pettit only played 12 seasons if you want to bring up longevity to downgrade Wade.

People seem to ignore certain intangibles that Wade has displayed over his career. For example, he always shows up when he's needed most in the playoffs(2014 Finals is an exception i think he was out of shape, out of gas etc). He stepped up big in the 2012 run when Bosh went down, 33 ppg in the last 3 games against pacers and then had a very good Finals.

In 2013 he wasn't that good but even so he showed up when the Heat were in trouble, 32 pts 6 rebounds 6 steals in game 4 against Spurs, need i remind you LbJ wasn't playing well up until that point and they would've went home in game 5 had Wade not did what he did. LBJ ended up with better numbers but that's because he stat padded in garbage time, it was Wade who took over that game. Wade has put his cape on twice(as i like to say) in the heat's back to back titles runs. LBJ would still be ringless if Wade didn't show up in crucial games, just saying.

Wade was fearless and always shined in big playoff moments. I'm not sure we can say that about Ewing. Yeah longevity is a factor with Wade but it gets a little overblown i think.

[trex_8063]

Congrats to Barkley. The next few get interesting all over again for me. I'm fairly undecided for #21, but I have four primary candidates:

John Stockton
Wicked prime; from '88 thru '97 (10 seasons in which he missed FOUR GAMES TOTAL).......
Per 100 rs: 21.8 pts, 4.1 reb, 17.9 ast, 3.6 stl, 4.7 tov on .619 TS%
22.7 PER, .221 WS/48, 122 ORtg/104 DRtg in 36.2 mpg
Per 100 ps: 21.4 pts, 4.8 reb, 16.2 ast, 2.8 stl, 4.5 tov on .574 TS%
20.4 PER, .163 WS/48, 117 ORtg/108 DRtg in 39.0 mpg

And fwiw, the only reason I'm declaring '97 the end to his prime is because '97 was the final season in which he was playing "star level" minutes. His level of play otherwise didn't really decline significantly: from '88 on (the last SIXTEEN seasons of his career, right down to the bitter end), he NEVER had a season with a PER <21; he had only 2 seasons out of 16 with a WS/48 <.200; he had TWO seasons in his post-prime with the league's best ORtg (while also only having TWO seasons of his final six which I am calling his "post-prime" in which his DRtg was worse than league average). For impact stats, we only have data for these years that I am classifying as his post-prime, and yet the results could be construed as "eye-opening" to say the least. Here is his league rank in combined PI RAPM for each year:
'98--->7th
'99--->8th
'00--->8th
*'01--->3rd (*NPI)
'02--->12th
'03--->13th

Dude has left a massive statistical footprint on the game......
#1 all-time in career rs assists and steals, and has such a sizable lead in both that these are records none of us are likely to see broken in our lifetimes: has 3,715 more assists than the 2nd-place guy, 581 more steals than the 2nd-place guy. Is #5 all-time in career rs win shares.
Is #2 all-time in career playoff assists and #4 in career playoff steals, too; #16 all-time in career playoff WS. He's also inside the top 50 all-time in career rs points, inside top 40 in career playoff points.

Anyway, he's got a more than credible resume for the spot, and really should be gaining a lot of traction now that we're out of the top 20, imo.


Bob Pettit
Most of his case has already been stated in prior thread, but in a nut-shell.......
*25.3 PER, .213 WS/48 in 38.8 mpg over an 11-year span is super-damn impressive.
**The only guy whose team beat the Russell Celtics in the finals; came 1 game shy of beating the Russell Celtics in the finals TWO other times (had four total finals appearances).
***2x league MVP, 16th all-time in MVP Award Shares, 12th all-time in RealGM RPoY shares.


Dwyane Wade
If we use a pretty broad/inclusive definition for prime, we can say his prime was '05-'13. During that span.....

Per 100 rs: 36.5 pts, 7.4 reb, 8.9 ast, 2.6 stl, 1.5 blk, 5.0 tov on .569 TS%
26.3 PER, .204 WS/48, 112 ORtg/103 DRtg in 37.1 mpg
Per 100 ps: 33.4 pts, 7.7 reb, 7.1 ast, 2.3 stl, 1.7 blk, 4.8 tov on .556 TS%
23.9 PER, .179 WS/48, 109 ORtg/102 DRtg, in 39.5 mpg

Pretty impressive stuff.
Has three titles (1 as the man, 2 as Robin) on five finals appearances, one FMVP. Is 19th in RealGM RPoY shares, though only 40th all-time in MVP Award Shares. fwiw, I do think 19th is over-valuing him slightly, but it's definitely closer to the truth than his MVP Award Shares rank.
Obviously the big tick against him is the longevity/durability. It should be noted that in the 9-year span that I am generously calling his prime, he missed a grand total of 118 games (avg of >13 missed per year), which is not insignificant.


Elgin Baylor
I do feel Baylor should be getting some traction by this point: one of the greatest volume scorers of his era while simultaneously probably being THE greatest rebounder ever from the SF position.
The Lakers in '58 were a dismal 19-53 (.264).......Rookie Elgin Baylor arrives and finishes 4th in league in scoring, 3rd in rebounding, 8th in assists and the Lakers jump to 33-39 (.458) AND make a trip to the NBA finals (one of EIGHT finals appearances Baylor would make in his career).

tbh, only has about 5 seasons that I'd feel comfortable classifying as his prime ('59-'63):
rs: 32.0 ppg/16.7 rpg/4.4 apg; 26.1 PER, .195 WS/48 in a huge 42.1 mpg
ps: 33.6 ppg/14.6 rpg/3.9 apg; 25.1 PER, .183 WS/48 in a huge 44.0 mpg

After that his knee problems would become problematic, although he was STILL so damn good that he continued to garner All-NBA 1st Team nods (would 10 times receive that distinction).
He's 23rd all-time in MVP Award Shares, and a very symmetrical 23rd all-time in RealGM RPoY shares (while being up against Russell, Wilt, West, Robertson---who are ALL already voted in, and none worse than #15---for basically his whole career, as well as a few years up against Pettit).


So I'm undecided at this point; need to think on it and read some posts, etc. But these are the four guys I'm considering for this spot.

Would like to maybe hear a little more on Walt Frazier. Not because I see myself giving him any serious consideration for this spot, but because I think maybe I've been underrating him (based on the fact that he's being name-dropped recently).

[90sAllDecade]

Found this and thought it was a cool match up video. A regular season game between Ewing and Shaq:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfAlPBRwthk[/youtube]

[ronnymac2]

Found this and thought it was a cool match up video. A regular season game between Ewing and Shaq:

Spoiler:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfAlPBRwthk[/youtube]

Damn, he busted Shaq's ass with that jumper. Gotta love Shaq and Oak getting into it, too.

[lorak]

The question I have about Ewing's defense is how much of it was Ewing, and how much of it was Pat Riley? As we all know, Ewing's peak season was during 1989-90, and then the Knicks finished at 12-13 when it comes to defensive rating. Now obviously the Knicks outside Ewing were not a bunch of defensive masterminds ( though they did have Charles Oakley) and we all know from the example of KG that even an elite defensive big can struggle if his teammates are terrible.

That said, the question here that should be asked is that when we talk about Ewing's peak in 1990, what are we looking at from a defensive perspective? If Ewing's offensive and defensive peaks were not actually at the same time, how much does this limit Ewing when analyzed from the perspective of a peak player?

How much of it was Riley? I think no more that Jackson in case of Jordan and Pippen or Pop in case of Duncan or Thibo in case of KG and so on. In other words: great players need good coaches in order to maximize their impact, especially on defense, where in modern basketball team effort/organization is much more important that 1on1 D. On the other hand you can also ask how much Ewing helped Riley, because it's not like he had coached great defenses before he arrived to NYK.

I have no doubt that even before Riley Ewing was GOAT level defender, he just wasn't used in right way or hadn't proper supporting cast at the beginning of his career (similar situation to KG in Minny). But we still could see his massive defensive impact.

In 1986 he missed 32 games. Without him NYK's r_drtg was +1.8 (18/19 place in the NBA), with him -3.4, so 3rd best defense that year, behind only loaded Celtics frontcourt (Walton, McHale, Parish, Bird) and Bucks (Pressey, Moncrief, Lister). Ahead of teams like Jazz (Eaton) or Rockets (Hakeem). Seems like massive impact on defense, especially if we consider that was Ewing's rookie year!

In 1987 he missed 19 games, without him NYk's r_drtg was +8.2 (one of the worst defenses ever, dead last that year, more that 4 drtg points behind second worst team), with +1.6 (15th place), so still worse than league average, but big improvement over what Knicks were without him.

Next 4 years Ewing played almost every game and Knicks defense wasn't great, but also not so bad: -1.6, -0.3, -0.1 and -0.6 r_drtg, so one good year and three basically average. Does it show that Ewing's impact on defense is overrated? IMO no, because those 4 years were bad for NYK from coaching standpoint as they had 3 different coaches during that period of time and all of them were major disapointment.

After that we have 4 years with Riley, defense imrpves a lot: -4.0, -8.3, -8.1 and -4.5. That means two GOAT level defenses were anchored by Ewing. I think no one should have any doubt that without him that wouldn't be possible, or that Knicks would be even close to that. To realize how good is -8 level on defense look at how rarly it was achived: of course Russell's Celtics back in the 60s did it 4 times, Mikan's Lakers were close once with -7.6, but other than that Duncan's teams did it only once (2004), the same with KG (2008) and that's all. 2004 Pistons were also close with -7.5. And Ewing lead his team to two such seasons as defensive anchor! And it's not like Riley was better defensive coach than Pop or Thibo or Larry Brown.

Last piece of data is from end of Ewing's career as he missed a lot of games from '98 to '00 and we have DRAPM from that period, so lets see how he was doing past his prime in comparison to other defensive anchors:

Code: Select all

YEAR   PI/NPI   DRAPM   RANK DRAPM   PLAYER
1998   PI   4,1   4   Patrick Ewing
1998   PI   1,8   44   Tim Duncan
1998   PI   3,6   6   David Robinson
1998   PI   5,7   1   Dikembe Mutombo
            
1999   PI   3,7   11   Patrick Ewing
1999   PI   2,4   31   Tim Duncan
1999   PI   5,2   2   David Robinson
1999   PI   6,5   1   Dikembe Mutombo
            
2000   PI   3,0   20   Tim Duncan
2000   PI   4,8   4   David Robinson
2000   PI   3,7   12   Patrick Ewing
2000   PI   6,9   1   Dikembe Mutombo



So he was still pretty impactfull on defense even at the end of his career. Overall we see his massive defensive impact at every stage of his career: he improved Knicks defense a lot as a rookie/second year player, he anchored two of top 10 defenes of all time at his defensive prime and past prime was still top 20 defender, probably close to youg Duncan.

[lorak]

How much better do we think Ewing's impact on defense is than Pippen's?

What do you think about Pippen's DRAPM?

[Jim Naismith]

Vote: Bob Pettit



High Peak and Prime

2 MVPs, 4 All-Star Game MVPs (tied for highest with Kobe)

10 consecutive years on the All-NBA First Team

Great Scoring and Rebounding

scoring peak: 31.1 ppg
rebounding peak: 20.3 rpg
career: 26.2 ppg / 16.2 rpg

lead league in scoring twice
top-5 scorer for 10 consecutive years
top-5 rebounder for 10 consecutive years

#7 in career PPG (beats Kobe, Oscar)
#3 in career RPG (behind only Wilt and Russell)

lead league in PER for 4 consecutive years
#7 in career PER

Led Hawks to NBA championship (led them to Finals three other times)

beat Celtics in the Russell Era, the only other team to do so was the 1967 Sixers led by Wilt

Best Finals game ever?

— Game 6 against Celtics: 50 points, 19 rebounds
— scored 19 of Hawks' final 21 points, including final basket to clinch championship

Among the Best

Even against other big names, Bob Pettit does well.

Career PoY shares


11. Karl Malone 4.649
12. Bob Pettit 4.466
13. Oscar Robertson 4.413
14. Kobe Bryant 4.380
15. Hakeem Olajuwon 4.380
16. Jerry West 3.795
17. Kevin Garnett 3.571
18. Moses Malone 3.478
19. Dwyane Wade 2.601
20. David Robinson 2.431