Players you'd take over 2000/2001 Shaq?

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Actually, I just turned 40 on Sunday. Had a wonderful surprise party. It was awesome!

More excuses, huh? So now, MJ, considered the greatest competitor of all time, threw away a game and allowed Shaq's team to win? Man! You question my age, and then you come at me with that? Try again!

IF Jordan didn't have a negative effect on Akeem's career, then why couldn't Akeem win a title while MJ was in the league? He won 6 titles during Akeem's career, and the only titles Akeem won were when MJ was retired OR when Shaq's Magic finished him off beforehand. If I use your logic, Akeem should have had a title each year that MJ won it. Again, you fail.

Oh great, happy belated, I'm 39. So which is it exactly? First it was Hakeem could thank Shaq for ousting MJ in '95, to Hakeem couldn't win a title with Shaq in the league? Whoop di da, MJ won 6 titles, and what about the rest of his career, I guess 84-90 never happened? He wasn't anywhere close to the '86 Finals when Olajuwon was, is that Hakeem's fault? Kareem won a title while he was in the NBA, Bird did, Magic did, Worthy did, Isiah did, Joe D did. Was he out of the NBA those years too? HAKEEM DID IN '95. Tell you what, post all these clips of MJ bossing Hakeem and showing how much negative impact he had....I can guarantee you it'll be a fruitless search if you tried.

And it's funny, I find Shaq leading Orlando to a win in '95 vs Chicago imho was the most impressive series win of his career, even though they didn't win it all. That's the only time I ever saw him beat a team in the playoffs with roughly equal talent.....although that was the only year the Bulls didn't have good interior D (Humpf so much for the notion Jordan ever had the impact of a dominant big as far as I'm concerned) and you're insisting MJ was out the NBA.

So Jordan lost in the 2nd rd to Shaq who lost in the Finals the same playoff year to Olajuwon's Rockets. Your argument is like me saying to the '96 Bulls: "Hey if we didn't get swept 4-0 vs. Seattle in the 2nd round we'd have beaten you guys!"

[FuShengTHEGreat]

So it's okay to blame Akeem's teammates (drug suspensions and injuries to teammates), but I can't use Kobe's 2004 court drama and Malone and Fox's injuries to explain the 2004 Finals? So it's okay to point out that Akeem was triple teamed in Seattle, but that's not a good enough excuse for Shaq in the 2006 finals being tripled before he even got the ball in his hands? Once again, you fail!

What on earth kind of parallel are you drawing? Hakeem INCREASED his play despite the drama unfolding around the team in '87. And that went for the '86 playoffs too. And in '95 when Mad Max went into the crowd and beat a fan during the regular season, then walked out on the team.......during the playoffs.

What does Kobe's off court drama, Malone/Fox's injury have to do with Shaq's laziness in the '04 Finals not competing on the boards, protecting screen n rolls, getting into a heated argument with Tex Winter over his effort? So team drama affects Shaq's effort level you're telling me? Yet another reason I don't find his peak as in high regard.

Scoffs, and that's the story of Shaq's playoff career, whenever his teams faced adversity and fell behind other than those 2002 & 2006 Donaghy reffed series, they folded like a cheap tent. It's funny a 8th seeded Knick team missing Ewing almost takes 99 SA to 6 games and prime Shaq can't even win a game vs. the same team all because of JR Reid or Fox matched with Duncan. Or 96 as well where and inferior Ewing on a aging Knick team wins a game vs. the Bulls and somehow Shaq can't lead them to a single win all because Grant got injured. Other than Chicago in '95 he only ever beat teams with less talent than he had. He can't win a single game vs. Utah in '98 because his team stunk it up and a old beat up Hakeem almost eliminates the same team shooting just as poorly.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

You think Shaq lacked the ability to score at will in game 1 in 95? Well, he put up 26 points, 16 rebounds, 9 assists! You're right. He didn't shoot 59.5% that game. HE SHOT 62.5%!! Akeem scored, but his line read 31, 6 boards (compared to 16 from Shaq) and 7 assists (compared to Shaq's 9) on 50% from the field. And you say that Shaq was the reason they lost that game? Even if he was scoreless in OT, with a line like that, HE was the reason they were up in the final seconds of the game before Nick Anderson choked it away. So yes, if Nick Anderson would have made ONE OF FOUR FRIGGIN' FREE THROWS, they WOULD have won game 1. It would have been impossible for them to lose regardless of how many 3's the Rockets hit. They'd still come up 1 point short. Again, you lose!

So in game 2, they fall behind. But Shaq, as you put it, "Got Cooking" even though it was too late. Let's examine that. Dream put up 34-11- and 2 on 46.7% from the field. Shaq put up 33-12-7 on 54.5% from the field. Again, Shaq did more. Yet his TEAM lost. So how does one put up those numbers but still get blamed for his team losing? Hell, Kobe puts up a 6-24 night and they gave him the FMVP! So putting up 25-12-3 on 57.9% from the floor is quitting on your team? ?

SMH I'm tired of these efficient statlines that didn't change the outcome of any game being posted. Maybe that's all you have to hang your head on,lol. It ain't even like Orlando was facing some top 10 all-time team that dwarfed them in top to bottom talent like Hakeem did in '86. They were facing a 47 win team with HCA. Hardy har har. X player didn't shoot this or that. Every team that lost a Finals in NBA history would've won a they got this or that.

But that's Shaq for you. Compared to Hakeem he's not skilled enough to dominate/affect a game in as many facets when he's facing teams with equal or more talent than he had. He's better off beating teams he has more talent than. I guess that's why Hakeem can push a series to 6 games vs a team with 4 HOFers getting less help and off court issues than '95 Shaq, while Shaq and his fanbase stay whining about guys missing shots in a series he was favoured in and surprisingly lost in lopsided fashion.

No wonder his impact is less.

[Rupert Murdoch]

1967 Wilt
1988-1993 Jordan
2009-2013 Lebron
1971-1973 Kareem

[jaypo]

I'm honored that you keep quoting me and trying to prove me wrong. It gives everyone a chance to see how ridiculous your point of views are. You keep pointing out that nothing Shaq did matters in the game. So I guess that if he averaged 12 points, 3 rebounds, and shot 25% from the field against teams like the 00 Spurs, 01 Blazers, 02 Kings, etc., then the Lakers would have still 3 peated? And if he only averaged the same numbers vs. Chicago and Detroit in 2006, the Heat would have won the title? No impact, huh? Well, let me choose an example of a past prime Shaq being the 2nd option as a major reason they got to the finals. Against the Bulls, Shaq was covered by Tyson Chandler, a very good defensive center. And the Bulls threw doubles constantly. Yet, he still scored 18.6 and 7.2 on 56.7% from the field. And his presence in the paint allowed Wade to penetrate and get free on a lot of shots. Against the Pistons, a team you constantly say put the clamps on him in 04, he put up 21.7, 10.5, and shot 65.5 friggin' % from the field. Against Ben and Sheed Wallace! In the finals, Avery Johnson admitted to the media that he was going to swarm Shaq to prevent him from dominating. And he did. He put 2 men, front and back, at all times. And if Shaq got the ball, 2 more came in to help. Yet, he still managed to score 13.7, pull down 10.2, dish out 2.8 dimes, and shoot 60.7% from the field. And in your skewed sense of reality, none of that has any impact on the team?

How can you sit there with a straight face and say that someone that can average 26 and 10 while shooting 63% from the field against the best defense in NBA history had less of an impact on the game than his "lack of PNR defense"? Let's examine your theories even further. In the 98-99 series against SA, one you love to harp on, you claim Shaq had an awful series. So let's loook at his numbers. 24 ppg, 13 boards, 49% from the field. DRob- 13 points, 6 rebs and 50%. Kobe- 21 pts, 6 rebs, 44%. So you'll blame the player with the 2nd best numbers on the court for the loss? Had the Lakers had a decent PF that year, TD wouldn't have been the best performing player. It would have been Shaq. He almost doubled his man's totals, and his man happened to be another HOF center. Let's go to 99-00. Shaq puts up 25.9, 12.4 on 53.7% against Portland. Kobe- 20.4, 4.9, and 43.9%. 00-01 vs S.A.- 27, 13 54.1%. Drob- 14.3, 10.8, 40%. Kobe- 33, 7, 51.4. 01-02- 21.4, 12.2, 45%. Drob- 6, 7, 47%. Kobe- 26.2, 5.4, 45.5.

So let's examine this, shall we? You're a huge proponent of "Kobe singlehandedly won the WCF which were the REAL finals". So we go to the numbers. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence can see that Shaq put up the best numbers in 98-99, yet they fell short (because TD went off on whatever stiff LA tried to cover him with). In 99-00, Shaq's numbers made Kobe's look mediocre vs. Portland. in 00-01 vs. SA again, Shaq pretty much doubles DRob's points, owns the glass, and shoots 54%. Kobe scores 3 more baskets, but Shaq wned the glass. And you say that they won IN SPITE of Shaq's poor performance? FF to 01-02. Kobe puts up 2.5 more baskets, but Shaq puts up 7 more boards. They both shoot the same %, but Shaq's assignment puts up a 6 and 7. And you say Kobe ruled that series? By hitting 2.5 more baskets? You can't really believe the things you post, can you? You negate his impact when he scores a lot of points, pulls down a lot of boards, and shoots at a high% (sometimes historically high), but you inflate it when he ONLY shoots 45% from the field? Hell, if Kobe shoots that, you're praising him as the next MJ.

Shaq wasn't skilled enough to dominate a game, huh? Well, that must make him the best ever. Because to do what he did without any skill just means he had a superhuman quality besides skill! And for a player with no skill to win 4 titles, shoot the 2nd highest FG% ever, put up as many points, rebounds, and blocks as he did, score 20 and 10 more seasons in a row than Kareem, and put up the countless other accolades, I'd say that's more impressive than a player that is said to be the best 2 way center ever, but could only muster half the titles of the less skilled, lazy, overweight, lack of effort player.

Thanks for the smiles! Putting things in that perspective made me smile a little more today!

[FuShengTHEGreat]

I'm honored that you keep quoting me and trying to prove me wrong. It gives everyone a chance to see how ridiculous your point of views are. You keep pointing out that nothing Shaq did matters in the game. So I guess that if he averaged 12 points, 3 rebounds, and shot 25% from the field against teams like the 00 Spurs, 01 Blazers, 02 Kings, etc., then the Lakers would have still 3 peated? And if he only averaged the same numbers vs. Chicago and Detroit in 2006, the Heat would have won the title? No impact, huh? Well, let me choose an example of a past prime Shaq being the 2nd option as a major reason they got to the finals. Against the Bulls, Shaq was covered by Tyson Chandler, a very good defensive center. And the Bulls threw doubles constantly. Yet, he still scored 18.6 and 7.2 on 56.7% from the field. And his presence in the paint allowed Wade to penetrate and get free on a lot of shots. Against the Pistons, a team you constantly say put the clamps on him in 04, he put up 21.7, 10.5, and shot 65.5 friggin' % from the field. Against Ben and Sheed Wallace! In the finals, Avery Johnson admitted to the media that he was going to swarm Shaq to prevent him from dominating. And he did. He put 2 men, front and back, at all times. And if Shaq got the ball, 2 more came in to help. Yet, he still managed to score 13.7, pull down 10.2, dish out 2.8 dimes, and shoot 60.7% from the field. And in your skewed sense of reality, none of that has any impact on the team?

Pfft, like I care what Shaq did in Miami in his flavour of the month jump to the next star. Unlike many on here, I don't hold as much weight to winning titles/series in the playoffs not being THE best guy on the team. If Malone won a ring in 2004, I wasn't seeing him in any higher light. Bragging about 2006? What happened in 2005 when Wade was ailing and he was needed to get them over the hump. At the same age Hakeem was putting 33 on he and his Orlando team to win Finals MVP, he was no longer good enough to be his teams best player.

Detroit in 2004? Why'd his own assistant coach call him overrated? I watched Charles in Houston in his late years getting 20/10 games based off of being talented to do so, and still he was a lazy player those years. I saw the same from Shaq in that series. Brag all you want about these glossy high scoring FG% games, because in the big picture from Shaq it was 97 & 98 vs. Utah all over again.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

In the 98-99 series against SA, one you love to harp on, you claim Shaq had an awful series. So let's loook at his numbers. 24 ppg, 13 boards, 49% from the field. DRob- 13 points, 6 rebs and 50%. Kobe- 21 pts, 6 rebs, 44%. So you'll blame the player with the 2nd best numbers on the court for the loss? Had the Lakers had a decent PF that year, TD wouldn't have been the best performing player. It would have been Shaq. He almost doubled his man's totals, and his man happened to be another HOF center. Let's go to 99-00. Shaq puts up 25.9, 12.4 on 53.7% against Portland. Kobe- 20.4, 4.9, and 43.9%. 00-01 vs S.A.- 27, 13 54.1%. Drob- 14.3, 10.8, 40%. Kobe- 33, 7, 51.4. 01-02- 21.4, 12.2, 45%. Drob- 6, 7, 47%. Kobe- 26.2, 5.4, 45.5.

So let's examine this, shall we? You're a huge proponent of "Kobe singlehandedly won the WCF which were the REAL finals". So we go to the numbers. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence can see that Shaq put up the best numbers in 98-99, yet they fell short (because TD went off on whatever stiff LA tried to cover him with). In 99-00, Shaq's numbers made Kobe's look mediocre vs. Portland. in 00-01 vs. SA again, Shaq pretty much doubles DRob's points, owns the glass, and shoots 54%. Kobe scores 3 more baskets, but Shaq wned the glass. And you say that they won IN SPITE of Shaq's poor performance? FF to 01-02. Kobe puts up 2.5 more baskets, but Shaq puts up 7 more boards. They both shoot the same %, but Shaq's assignment puts up a 6 and 7. And you say Kobe ruled that series?

So where are these monstrous 30+/14 series peak performances Shaq had vs everyone else during this span? Isn't having to go through Shaq/Ho.G combo in '95 comparable to post injury DRob/Duncan. How's Duncan winning a title through a more experienced Shaq at the same age Shaq was going winless vs. Houston, if this "baby" Shaq, being only 22 years old is thrown around by you and others here?

99-00, they do NOT beat SA if Duncan wasn't injured. Shaq's performances were not on par with vs. the rest of the West when he faced SA. They defended him better than Portland did. And Kobe was still growing.

01-02, what about Shaq being a non factor in 4th quarters offensively vs SA, struggling to close out games. Having conditioning problems. Duncan had little help from DRob missing 1/2 the series, outrebounding Shaq by epic proportions, and you're whining about Shaq not having a PF in '99?

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Shaq wasn't skilled enough to dominate a game, huh? Well, that must make him the best ever. Because to do what he did without any skill just means he had a superhuman quality besides skill! And for a player with no skill to win 4 titles, shoot the 2nd highest FG% ever, put up as many points, rebounds, and blocks as he did, score 20 and 10 more seasons in a row than Kareem, and put up the countless other accolades, I'd say that's more impressive than a player that is said to be the best 2 way center ever, but could only muster half the titles of the less skilled, lazy, overweight, lack of effort player.

Thanks for the smiles! Putting things in that perspective made me smile a little more today!

You take comments out of context and put your spin on them. I said not as skilled. And that was always his problem, he could slack off and just show up get a 25-30pt 11+ rpg game based off of skill/talent alone, and that mindset imho cost his teams a lot of series that should've been closer. Other than Phil coming in 2000 as far as I'm concerned he never got past that mindset.

More impressive whatever. For all these so-called all-time lists and supposedly him being higher than his peers like Hakeem and Duncan, absolutely nobody other than he himself has ever called him MDE. He makes almost no players' all-time teams. In Bill Simmons book, he ranks behind a guy he has more rings than at the Center position....and it ain't just Wilt. So no, despite his career accomplishments, he isn't ranked as high in as many peoples' eyes as you claim.

Robert Horry who played with peak Shaq and won more titles with him than he did with Hakeem doesn't even consider him better than Olajuwon: “He was so talented and could do so many different things. I’d put him on top and Tim [Duncan] and Shaquille [O’Neal] can trade places for second and third.”
Horry then paused, smiled, and made sure he was clear with his intentions, “Hey, Shaq and Tim...I love you guys, okay?”

[RayBan-Sematra]

Pfft, like I care what Shaq did in Miami in his flavour of the month jump to the next star.

Wade was hardly some big star when je joined Miami.
The year before Shaq joined he was a 16 / 4.5apg player.
He helped mold Wade into a star the same as he did for Penny & Kobe.

Unlike many on here, I don't hold as much weight to winning titles/series in the playoffs not being THE best guy on the team.

Agreed.

If Malone won a ring in 2004, I wasn't seeing him in any higher light.

Malone's importance and level of contribution to that 2004 team was not close to Shaq's in 2006 so that is a very poor comparison.
Shaq was still the best C in the league in 2006 and still a dominant player whos very presense significantly altered opposing defenses.
He had a reasonably dominant run up until the Finals and then posted 17 / 12 on 69%FG in the 4 Miami wins.

Obviously he was well past his Peak and not the player he was earlier in his career but he was still good for 20/10 on most nights while attracting heavy double teams and collapsing defenses.

Bragging about 2006? What happened in 2005 when Wade was ailing and he was needed to get them over the hump.

Shaq suffered a severe injury prior to the playoffs in 2005 and yet still pulled through and had a very good series against Detroit.
Wade's injury is why they failed to make the Finals.

At the same age Hakeem was putting 33 on he and his Orlando team to win Finals MVP, he was no longer good enough to be his teams best player.

33 year old Hakeem was in his 11th year.
11th year Shaq was arguably the best player in the league, was clearly the best player on his team and was definitly on the same level as 95 Keem.

Detroit in 2004? Why'd his own assistant coach call him overrated?

Shaq and Tex always had beef.
I don't completely disagree with his criticisms of Shaq related to that series but if he was going to complain about anyone in that series it should have been Kobe.

I watched Charles in Houston in his late years getting 20/10 games based off of being talented to do so, and still he was a lazy player those years. I saw the same from Shaq in that series.

Sure Shaq could have played better but he still had a pretty good series and considering how bad his support was and how bad the team flow/chemistry was they probably weren't gonna win even if he performed at his Peak level.

Still seems odd to attack Shaq using that series considering he performed 1000x better then anyone else on his team and still had an elite (though not GOAT level) series.

Brag all you want about these glossy high scoring FG% games, because in the big picture from Shaq it was 97 & 98 vs. Utah all over again.

Not really that similar but I would say again that Shaq had an excellent series VS Utah in 98 and kept the games close.
Had his cast not shot so poorly collectively then his team would have had a solid chance to advance.

[RayBan-Sematra]

And that was always his problem, he could slack off and just show up get a 25-30pt 11+ rpg game based off of skill/talent alone, and that mindset imho cost his teams a lot of series that should've been closer.

Shaq played hard in the playoffs. He didn't coast or get by on talent nor was he ever ok with losing especially in his younger years before he felt like he was a proven guy.

I think his teams won when they should have.
I think he usually dominated even when his teams lost and when you look at his career with an unbiased eye you can easily see the factors which led to said losses.

95 : Hakeem gets way better support from his cast. Shaq would have had to obliterate Hakeem to make it a series which was unrealistic given that he was a 3rd year player.

96 : Shaq faced an ATG team in the 96 Bulls. Penny gets outplayed by Pippen and his roleplayers literally forget to show up. Individually Shaq is at worst a close 2nd best to Jordan in this series.

97 : Shaq has a disappointing series.

98 : Shaq had a dominant series after a poor G1. His teammates are all atrocious. His individual dominance keeps most of the games close. Yeah I am not gonna give Shaq much blame for this one even if he wasn't "perfect" etc...

99 : Shaq has weight/health issues this year and isn't at 100%.
Beyond that he faces a team perfectly built to stop his own team. Robinson is still an elite defensive C and Duncan is a young legend. Shaq still has a disappointing series but I won't give him the normal amount of blame because he clearly had the cards stacked against him.

00-02 = Only player besides Jordan & Russ to 3peat.
Plus how many guys have 3+ titles won as the man? Not many.

03 = Has a dominant series against the Spurs. Posts a 30+ PER in the playoffs.
Kobe gets injured and is inconsistent against the Spurs and sucks in key losses.
Roleplayer cast is thin and injured. Not a good combo.
On top of all that Phil is having heart troubles and is absent for some key playoff games against San Antonio and ofc the team has chemistry issues.

04 = Don't really need to explain this. Team chemistry sucked, Kobe sucked, roleplayers sucked etc...
Shaq still had a decent series at worst and far outperformed anyone else on his team and arguably on the other team.

05 = Shaq has a good series against Detroit despite being in his 13th year and dealing with injuries.

So really other then 97 & 99 Shaq doesn't deserve much blame for any of his teams "not doing better" etc...

For all these so-called all-time lists and supposedly him being higher than his peers like Hakeem and Duncan, absolutely nobody other than he himself has ever called him MDE.

Except for countless fans, many players and 10's if not 100's of media personalities.
Regardless of where the MDE nickname came from it wouldn't have stuck and been so broadly accepted (especially back in the early 00's) if people didn't think the name fit.

In Bill Simmons book, he ranks behind a guy he has more rings than at the Center position....and it ain't just Wilt. So no, despite his career accomplishments, he isn't ranked as high in as many peoples' eyes as you claim.

Bill Simmons ATList is absolutely horrible and I don't think it represents anything but his own opinion.

[bledredwine]

The guy who said first 3-peat Jordan, 93 Hakeem and Wilt is my alter ego. And my alter ego is always correct.

[jaypo]

Ray-ban- amusing, isn't it? I think Fusheng's feelings are so hurt that Shaq called himself MDE that 10 plus years after he said it, Fusheng is STILL crying about it! He's just upset that Shaq accomplished more in his career than his hero, Akeem did! So he's going to try to deflate those accomplishments to prop up Akeem's accomplishments.

You see, it's not enough for Akeem to be considered the best 2 way center ever, 2nd best defensive center ever, 2 time champion, etc. It's an insult to have anyone else above him. So he constantly tries to diminish the accomplishments of the man that doubled his ring total and was able to give him the bus-i-ness in his 3rd year.

All time lists? Not talking about GOAT list. Talking about real numbers. All time points- Shaq #6, Akeem # 9. FG%- Shaq #3, Akeem # 70. Yeah. 70. Ten times 7. And he was a center. PPG- Shaq- 20, Akeem- 30. PER- Shaq 3, Akeem 16. Now to the playoffs- Points- Shaq 4, Akeem- 11. Rebs- Shaq- 4, Akeem- 12. PER- Shaq 4, Akeem- 5.

So you see why he's so hurt? I'd be hurt too if I looked at the FACTS and saw that my hero was BELOW the rival that I hated on so many of the all time lists.

What's so telling about those numbers is that Fusheng loves to point out how Shaq hurt his team so much in the playoffs, yet, he's #4 all time in playoff PER. #4 in points and in rebs in the playoffs. Yet, according to Fusheng, he struggled so much in the playoffs!

[jaypo]

Ok, Fusheng. Just finished watching game 1 of the 1995 finals. This is what actually happened and not your fantasy version. With about 2 minutes to go, Shaq had 20 points (or so) and Akeem had 21. Shaq was 8/12 and Akeem was 9/20. At that point, Shaq had 12 boards and a career high in assists, and Akeem mustered up a whopping 4 boards. The game was tied. Shaq went down the floor, got a pass, and scored over Akeem and 2 others in the paint in transition. At the other end, Akeem scored a hook shot. Shaq gets a pass, backs Akeem down and shoots a jump hook in his eye. Other end, Akeem travels. Shaq misses a shot over Akeem, but Shaw tips it in. Magic up 3. After 2 offensive boards by Ho Grant, Anderson winds up at the line. Misses 2, but gets the offensive board and is fouled again. Misses 2 more. Rockets inbound, Kenny the Jet gets a defender in the air and hits a 3 to tie. Magic inbound to 3D whose 3 pointer is blocked by Horry.

So in that recap, how exactly is Shaq to blame in ANY facet of the Magic having to go to OT? At that time, he had 25 points, 12 boards, and a career high in assists while Akeem had 27 pts, 4 boards, and was shooting under 50%.

You LOVE to point out that Shaq scoring 0 points in OT was the reason they lost, but he actually hit a free throw, and before the final seconds, Akeem had all of 1 basket, so 2 points to Shaq's 1. However, the reason that Akeem was able to hit the game winner (which was an uncontested tip in) was because Drexler had blew past the entire Magic defense and was going to the rim. Shaq had to leave Akeem to prevent a layup (which still managed to get up and off the glass), and Akeem was by himself under the glass. So Shaq had no choice. Either watch Drexler score an uncontested layup or leave Akeem to try to block the shot. Again, you can't pin that on Shaq. You pin it on the other 4 defenders that Drexler walked right past on the way to the rim. Shaq at least contested the shot.

So once again, you were wrong on the facts, and your spin was 180 degrees wrong as well.

Would you care to try to revise history again? I implore you to go and watch the game for yourself (probably the first time you will have seen it). I'd love to see how you'll try to convince me that I was watching the wrong game!

But I have a sneaking suspicion you'll say something like, "well, that game doesn't matter anyway. The Lakers won in XXXX year in spite of Shaq. Nevermind that he averaged like 30 and 15 on 60% shooting and awesome defense. He was ugly in his uniform, so he brought the team down. They only won because Samaki Walker saved them".

[Prokorov]

What players in nba history would you choose over 2000/2001 Shaq?

maybe prime jordan or kareem?

that list is short.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Ray-ban- amusing, isn't it? I think Fusheng's feelings are so hurt that Shaq called himself MDE that 10 plus years after he said it, Fusheng is STILL crying about it! He's just upset that Shaq accomplished more in his career than his hero, Akeem did! So he's going to try to deflate those accomplishments to prop up Akeem's accomplishments.

Yeah I'm real surprised a guy that abandoned ship at every single stop in his career when things didn't go his way to teams with guys that won a combined 6 Finals MVPs in their careers and burnt bridges with countless players not to mention 2 GOAT coaches would've won more titles than a guy who played with 0 Finals MVPs, who stayed with a franchise through thick n thin through drug suspensions, lousy player transactions, injuries and brought them from the outhouse to the penthouse. Hakeem will be remembered as Houston's best player ever, the eternal face of the franchise, brought winning to a franchise and city that'd never won anything. Like MJ did for Chicago.....like Russell did for Boston......like Duncan has done for SA. Shaq will be remembered as just another jersey in LA's illustrious rafter that overall didn't even have the overall contributions or Magic.....or Kobe. That'll always be more of an "accomplishment" to me than anything Shaq ever did.

You see, it's not enough for Akeem to be considered the best 2 way center ever, 2nd best defensive center ever, 2 time champion, etc. It's an insult to have anyone else above him. So he constantly tries to diminish the accomplishments of the man that doubled his ring total and was able to give him the bus-i-ness in his 3rd year.

I have Jabbar as the GOAT Center, so that isn't true. What "bus-i-ness" did Shaq give Hakeem? Hakeem's highest scoring and easiest of his 3 Finals was against Shaq.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

All time lists? Not talking about GOAT list. Talking about real numbers. All time points- Shaq #6, Akeem # 9. FG%- Shaq #3, Akeem # 70. Yeah. 70. Ten times 7. And he was a center. PPG- Shaq- 20, Akeem- 30. PER- Shaq 3, Akeem 16. Now to the playoffs- Points- Shaq 4, Akeem- 11. Rebs- Shaq- 4, Akeem- 12. PER- Shaq 4, Akeem- 5.

So you see why he's so hurt? I'd be hurt too if I looked at the FACTS and saw that my hero was BELOW the rival that I hated on so many of the all time lists.

If I wanted to like you, I'd conjure up countless stats Shaq falls short as well.

Oh big shocker a 330 lb immovable force with freakish genes that spent the bulk of his career scoring in the painted area while defences in his best years had to contend with the top 2 SG's ever after MJ has a higher FG% than a guy under 7 ft doing a lot of work further away from the basket playing the bulk of his career with mediocre guard play while night in and out vs. guys either taller or stronger than him.

David Robinson has a way higher PER than Hakeem and Jabbar, thanks for admitting his superiority to these two.

It's funny on that list there's absolutely not one skill set Shaq stands alone as being better than any other C in history at and he's more impactful and dominant than anyone else ever? Olajuwon = GOAT in blocks. GOAT in steals.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

So you see why he's so hurt? I'd be hurt too if I looked at the FACTS and saw that my hero was BELOW the rival that I hated on so many of the all time lists.

What's so telling about those numbers is that Fusheng loves to point out how Shaq hurt his team so much in the playoffs, yet, he's #4 all time in playoff PER. #4 in points and in rebs in the playoffs. Yet, according to Fusheng, he struggled so much in the playoffs!

I've never been "hurt" by Shaq. I mean the icing on the cake of Hakeem's peak was hoisting a Finals MVP at his expense. He is after all a top 5 Center ever. He along with Jabbar are the top 2 1 on 1 scorers at the C. My favourite game ever from him was his rookie 28/24/5 vs. the Bulls in '93 and series vs. the Bulls in '95.

It's just don't see him in the light you and others do. As far as I'm concerned and I told that ShaqAttack character, his peak and 3peat playoff dominance vs Hakeem's peak is just like Rocky Marciano in boxing compared to Ali in the 70s. Of course he being Rocky to Hakeem from 92-95 to Ali in the 70s.

Marciano went 49-0, never lost a fight, slayed everyone in front of him....Ali on the other hand got beat and battered in several fights, did not go undefeated. But nobody remembers anybody Marciano beat to be the best, winning against people he was SUPPOSED to. Ali won in unexpected fashion, overcoming adversity.....great wars/battles and historically relevant guys at their best. Same analogy.

[RayBan-Sematra]

It's just don't see him in the light you and others do. As far as I'm concerned and I told that ShaqAttack character, his peak and 3peat playoff dominance vs Hakeem's peak is just like Rocky Marciano in boxing compared to Ali in the 70s. Of course he being Rocky to Hakeem from 92-95 to Ali in the 70s.

I guess I just don't see how you can so easily overlook and even at times mock his Peak considering how well a 3rd year Shaq did.
3rd year Shaq finished higher then Hakeem in MVP voting and more then held his own in their h2h series.
Even if you think Hakeem outplayed him overall you have to admit it was still reasonably close and Hakeem was closer to his Peak ability then Shaq was.

I do think Shaq was at the very least to some degree better in the early 00's then he was in the early 90's and considering that Shaq from 93-95 fully held his own VS Peak Hakeem you should hold Peak Shaq in high regard.

I am not saying Peak Shaq would dominate or even clearly get the better of Peak Hakeem but at the same time you also can't say that Peak Hakeem would dominate Peak Shaq or even clearly get the better of him.

These are two of the best ever. I rank them both very highly on my ATL and I probably think higher of Hakeem then the average fan here. Show respect to both of them.