Who is more talented, Larry Bird or Vince Carter?

[NeilsCeltics]

Who is more talented, Larry Bird or Vince Carter?

[Hawk]

Bird. He is one of the best offensive players ever, even with his non-athletic physique. I actually think of Bird as the most talented basketball player ever.

[tsherkin]

Hmmm..

In the traditional sense, it's Vince no contest. Great mix of size, power, explosive first step and leaping ability... plus native shooting ability.

Bird was a lot more skilled than Vince ever was, and put forth massive effort into developing his game.

A more thorough look begins to examine mental talent, though. Focus/determination, reasoning, work ethic. I still think Vince is the more classically talented player, but Bird was one in a million as far as overcoming a deficit of athletic gifts with skill and violent dedication to crushing the souls of his opposition. That dude WORKED, and he had the ability to get better.

[jaypo]

A 6'9 white boy with a bad back that couldn't jump. Yet, one of the best to ever lace up the Converse!

Talent? Bird. Gifted? VC. VC had the athletic ability, but Bird had the BBIQ, skill, and heart.

[Jaseface]

Agreed, Jaypo.

More talented - Bird
More gifted and athletic - VC

[trex_8063]

jaypo hit it, I think:

More physically talented: VC by miles (and miles)
More skilled: Bird by miles (and miles and miles)

Overall most talented? Well, I'm definitely gonna go with the guy who had at least 6 (and maybe as many as 9-10???) better/more impactful seasons than VC's best.

[Shot Clock]

I've never looked at someone as talented just because they were athletic. This one is Bird all the way.

[ronnymac2]

Larry Bird might have the GOAT nervous system in NBA history. He was also tall and physically strong.

I'll say Bird. If Vince had better quickness and speed and a better first step, I'd take him since those things are so important for a wing player in basketball. But he didn't.

[tsherkin]

If Vince had better quickness and speed and a better first step, I'd take him since those things are so important for a wing player in basketball. But he didn't.

You can't be talking about in comparison to Bird, so I'm confused here. Vince had an ELITE first step and pretty good quickness. His major issue was never athletic at all; Kobe was never AS athletic as Carter, for example. He had no issues with east-west movement, he had very good end-to-end speed and the entire premise of his dominant scoring years was posting him at the elbow face-up so he could blow by his defender with one or two steps and then attack the rim with his hops...

[ronnymac2]

If Vince had better quickness and speed and a better first step, I'd take him since those things are so important for a wing player in basketball. But he didn't.

You can't be talking about in comparison to Bird, so I'm confused here. Vince had an ELITE first step and pretty good quickness. His major issue was never athletic at all; Kobe was never AS athletic as Carter, for example. He had no issues with east-west movement, he had very good end-to-end speed and the entire premise of his dominant scoring years was posting him at the elbow face-up so he could blow by his defender with one or two steps and then attack the rim with his hops...

No no, Vince is better than Bird in all of these things.

Vince had an elite first step for somebody with his size, but he wasn't Jordan or young Wade. Better than Kobe I can agree, though young Kobe had a really good first step, too. Kobe was better than Vince because of his ball-handling skills and all-around mid-range game.

[tsherkin]

Vince had an elite first step for somebody with his size, but he wasn't Jordan or young Wade. Better than Kobe I can agree, though young Kobe had a really good first step, too. Kobe was better than Vince because of his ball-handling skills and all-around mid-range game.

Hmmm, disagree. His first step was up there with anyone. The difference between him and Jordan was his lateral mobility and ability to stop and change directions. But in terms of that first power step out of a triple-threat position, can't agree that Jordan OR Wade were more explosive.

And Kobe's ball-handling and mid-range game are irrelevant to a discussion of athletic ability.

Wade's superiority to Vince had more to do with his handles and his far greater willingness to attack the rim even after teams got physical with him, while Vince got quite good at shooting and moved to doing that a lot more as he recovered from injuries and aged.

[trex_8063]

Vince had an elite first step for somebody with his size, but he wasn't Jordan or young Wade. Better than Kobe I can agree, though young Kobe had a really good first step, too. Kobe was better than Vince because of his ball-handling skills and all-around mid-range game.

Hmmm, disagree. His first step was up there with anyone. The difference between him and Jordan was his lateral mobility and ability to stop and change directions. But in terms of that first power step out of a triple-threat position, can't agree that Jordan OR Wade were more explosive.

And Kobe's ball-handling and mid-range game are irrelevant to a discussion of athletic ability.

Realize it was injected into a discourse comparing physical attributes, but Kobe's superior ball-handling and mid-range game are certainly relevant to why Kobe was "better" (that's all he said there: "Kobe was better than VC because...."; stating why Kobe was better despite VC having very comparable athletic package).

Wade's superiority to Vince had more to do with his handles and his far greater willingness to attack the rim even after teams got physical with him, while Vince got quite good at shooting and moved to doing that a lot more as he recovered from injuries and aged.

I would also add in Wade's attributes as a help defender. Carter's not remotely close in that regard.

wrt specifically to athletic attributes, I think Kobe and Wade (Jordan too, for that matter) have better balance/body control than Carter; enables to make "crazy shots" or perhaps finish after contact a little better, imo.

[Quotatious]

I agree with jaypo and trex here. Nicely done guys.

Larry Bird might have the GOAT nervous system in NBA history. He was also tall and physically strong.

I like the way you phrased it - "nervous system" - I think it has a lot to do with his overall toughness, and doesn't stand just for his insanely high basketball IQ. Bird's love for the game of basketball and competition basically made him fight through his extremely painful back condition - he was still one of the top 10 or 15 players in the league even in 1992, when he sometimes struggled to run up and down the court (yet miraculously, he was still pretty effective in transition, because of his incredible anticipation and passing skills, even if sometimes he could barely run at that point of his career). His fundamentals were unbelieveable.

I mean:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woAK1i-o2wI[/youtube]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 50BOS.html

To me, that's one of the most incredible individual performances in NBA history. 35/36 year old, crippled Larry Bird getting a triple double with 49 points on great efficiency, playing a better game than peak Clyde Drexler, and leading his team to an overtime victory over the second best team in the league at the time.

[ronnymac2]

Vince had an elite first step for somebody with his size, but he wasn't Jordan or young Wade. Better than Kobe I can agree, though young Kobe had a really good first step, too. Kobe was better than Vince because of his ball-handling skills and all-around mid-range game.

Hmmm, disagree. His first step was up there with anyone. The difference between him and Jordan was his lateral mobility and ability to stop and change directions. But in terms of that first power step out of a triple-threat position, can't agree that Jordan OR Wade were more explosive.

And Kobe's ball-handling and mid-range game are irrelevant to a discussion of athletic ability.

Wade's superiority to Vince had more to do with his handles and his far greater willingness to attack the rim even after teams got physical with him, while Vince got quite good at shooting and moved to doing that a lot more as he recovered from injuries and aged.

Upon further YouTube review, maybe. Damn, Vince was crazy back in 2001.

[Hawk]

Spoiler:

I agree with jaypo and trex here. Nicely done guys.

Larry Bird might have the GOAT nervous system in NBA history. He was also tall and physically strong.

I like the way you phrased it - "nervous system" - I think it has a lot to do with his overall toughness, and doesn't stand just for his insanely high basketball IQ. Bird's love for the game of basketball and competition basically made him fight through his extremely painful back condition - he was still one of the top 10 or 15 players in the league even in 1992, when he sometimes struggled to run up and down the court (yet miraculously, he was still pretty effective in transition, because of his incredible anticipation and passing skills, even if sometimes he could barely run at that point of his career). His fundamentals were unbelieveable.

I mean:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woAK1i-o2wI[/youtube]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 50BOS.html

To me, that's one of the most incredible individual performances in NBA history. 35/36 year old, crippled Larry Bird getting a triple double with 49 points on great efficiency, playing a better game than peak Clyde Drexler, and leading his team to an overtime victory over the second best team in the league at the time.

I love Bird's turn around mid-range shot.

The game-tying 3 point shot was insane

Laaarryyyyyy Bird!!!!!!!

[tsherkin]

I would also add in Wade's attributes as a help defender. Carter's not remotely close in that regard.

Wing span helps, but that was more effort-related than anyhing else.

wrt specifically to athletic attributes, I think Kobe and Wade (Jordan too, for that matter) have better balance/body control than Carter; enables to make "crazy shots" or perhaps finish after contact a little better, imo.

Definitely not. Carter's career was defined by avoiding contact with MIRACULOUS mid-air body control. He was a contortionist supreme, highly adept at altering his shot mid-air and making crazy shots. More frequently than Kobe and with greater efficacy. And his dunking is only further testament to that.

Again, Jordan maybe, but body control was an ATG attribute for Vince, much more so than Kobe.

[tsherkin]

Vince had an elite first step for somebody with his size, but he wasn't Jordan or young Wade. Better than Kobe I can agree, though young Kobe had a really good first step, too. Kobe was better than Vince because of his ball-handling skills and all-around mid-range game.

Hmmm, disagree. His first step was up there with anyone. The difference between him and Jordan was his lateral mobility and ability to stop and change directions. But in terms of that first power step out of a triple-threat position, can't agree that Jordan OR Wade were more explosive.

And Kobe's ball-handling and mid-range game are irrelevant to a discussion of athletic ability.

Wade's superiority to Vince had more to do with his handles and his far greater willingness to attack the rim even after teams got physical with him, while Vince got quite good at shooting and moved to doing that a lot more as he recovered from injuries and aged.

Upon further YouTube review, maybe. Damn, Vince was crazy back in 2001.

Heheheh. Told you. #LivedInTorontoAndKnows

[Winsome Gerbil]

Who is more talented, Larry Bird or Vince Carter?

Wha???

Unless we are talking physical talent, this isn't a comparison. As far as basketball talent Bird has a pretty strong stake for most talented player of all time. Even physically Vince obviously could leap right over Bird, and was faster. But Bird was bigger, he was tougher, his hand eye coordination was GOAT-level, and he had a big ole hairy set...ok, I'll leave you to fill that one in. In any case, Vince was obviously the far superior athlete, but in practical terms, what did that get him? A lot of highlights, but its not like Shaq's physical freakiness which played directly into his dominance.