I want to know more about Magic and how he used to score

[Hawk]

I'm curious about how did Magic used to score. Let's take his peak season, 1987, as a reference.

His scoring and efficiency numbers:

RS: 23.9 ppg .52 FG% .84 FT%. .60 TS% .52 eFG%
PO: 21.8 ppg .539 FG% .83 FT% .607 TS% .54 eFG%

Honestly, I thought Magic wouldn't have such a good FT percentage. I thought he would be around 75%, just like Lebron.

He has great efficiency numbers, but he wasn't a great shooter...or at least beyond the 3 point line.

Was Magic a great mid-range shooter? Where was his comfort zone placed? Did he used to post up a lot? Was Magic good at dribbling past the defender? Which were his main strengths when it comes to scoring? Did he have any go-to move?

Thanks!

.

Thanks Q!

[Quotatious]

He scored mostly on drives and in the post, but if you gave him too much space, he would knock down a jumper (or actually, more of a set shot). He didn't use his outside shot very often before 1987, but he was an excellent finisher at rim (certainly in transition, but also in half-court) and his post up game was pretty deadly, because he was generally too big and strong for most perimeter players to guard, and too quick for most bigs. Also, he had tremendous understanding of the game which allowed him to pick his spots and try to score when there was an opening. He had a lot of dangerous scoring options on his teams, almost his entire career (Kareem/Wilkes/Nixon in the early 80s, then Kareem/Worthy/Scott), so their opponents couldn't really afford to give each of the Lakers' players as much attention as they should have, and as a result, most of them were pretty efficient as scorers (maybe except Nixon).

Magic obviously added a three point shot in the 1988-89 season, used it quite often, even ranked 5th in the league in terms of 3P attempts in the 1989-90 season, on over 38%. He was never fully comfortable with that shot (well, none of the stars of the late 80s/early 90s were, except Bird), but it made him more unpredictable offensively, and never hurt his TS%, because he always had GREAT shot selection (he wasn't a great midrange shooter, but decent).

[DQuinn1575]

Magic greatly his ft shooting around 86 and 87. He went from around 80% to high 80s

He scored a lot on fast breaks- he was an awesome passer on the break, but also was a good finisher if he had the opening.

Most of his outside shots were set shot like- they would work the ball around and people gave him a step for 3 reasons

1 he was great at taking the ball to the hole

2 players sloughed in on jabbar

3 his shot was his weak spot in the first few years


He didn't really post up much except for his comeback at power forward. Besides kareem, worthy would also be around the key a lot. James had some beautiful moves from 15 feet getting the ball with his back to the basket.

Magic would sometimes back in guys and post up, usually either spinning in for a layup or occasionally shooting his junior junior sky hook.


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[tsherkin]

He didn't really post up much except for his comeback at power forward.

This is terribly inaccurate. He would wing post a lot, particularly in the late 80s and early 90s, but even as early as his rookie season it was something he did. He did it a lot more from the elbow than the low block, but you could see him doing the same thing Worthy did a lot, pulling baseline spins or posting from the elbow and spinning middle to get to the rack.

[DQuinn1575]

He didn't really post up much except for his comeback at power forward.

This is terribly inaccurate. He would wing post a lot, particularly in the late 80s and early 90s, but even as early as his rookie season it was something he did. He did it a lot more from the elbow than the low block, but you could see him doing the same thing Worthy did a lot, pulling baseline spins or posting from the elbow and spinning middle to get to the rack.

The difference was he wouldn't post up- receive the ball from an entry pass and make a quick move in the post, like worthy. Most of his back to the basket moves, especially once Nixon left, were initiated off his dribble.

He did post up more once kareem left as Perkins and divac played outside a lot more than Thompson Rambis and kareem


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[ronnymac2]

Underrated scorer. His foul draw rate is incredible, and he became an elite free throw shooter in the second half of his career. Underrated slasher and finisher inside.

[tsherkin]

The difference was he wouldn't post up- receive the ball from an entry pass and make a quick move in the post, like worthy. Most of his back to the basket moves, especially once Nixon left, were initiated off his dribble.

This is:

a) not relevant, since those are still post-ups

and

b) Still inaccurate, because he'd occasionally receive the ball on the block from a wing entry. He didn't do it a ton, but that's more to do with the fact that he was the on-ball guy. And of course when playing with Nixon, that was way early in his career when Kareem was still a big-minutes, MVP-level player occupying the block. Even more so once they acquired Worthy, there wasn't really room for him to do that unless Cap was on the bench. That's part of the reason we saw more of this when he was older, and in G6 of the 1980 Finals. He didn't force his personal offense unless it was necessary, which is one of his more redeeming traits.

But yeah, it's inaccurate to say he didn't post up, even constraining that phrase in the limited fashion which you used, until his comeback in 96. Yeah he did it more then, because he was playing PF and it was convenient, but while it's true that when he did post it was mostly dribble-initiated, that's not really a meaningful piece of information. He would back down at the 3pt line to protect the ball, or to get himself to the elbow (or from 20 feet), where he was a wizard at finding his teammates after warping the defense thus. And yeah, one of his favorite moves was to guard post and then spin into a drive to the lane starting from the perimeter. It was nasty and brutally effective. The other thing you're forgetting though, is that the Lakers moved the ball really, really well, and often Magic would start up top, swing it, cut down into the post and then make quick passes from there. He didn't look to score from the post first, he most frequently used it as a playmaking tool, which is probably why your brain is minimizing his presence there, but he'd counter the D and score from the block when the pass wasn't there.

A lot.

Remember too that Magic's scoring volume predicates the absolute number of possessions used on any one style of scoring, and since he didn't score 20+ ppg for the first half of his career mostly, it's easy to remember whether a guy did it a zillion times a game or not by absolute numbers instead of proportionate usage, which is a more accurate representation of how he used his possessions.

[Texas Chuck]

Magic mostly got into the most the way Chuck did. He turned around with the dribble and backed smaller guys down. Sure sometimes he set up in the post(high more than low) but to answer the OP, the back-down was a big part of his post game. His set shot was a part and grew as he got older and of course his ability to get to the rim and finish.

[GSP]

He didnt discriminate. Men or women he scored em all

[DQuinn1575]

The difference was he wouldn't post up- receive the ball from an entry pass and make a quick move in the post, like worthy. Most of his back to the basket moves, especially once Nixon left, were initiated off his dribble.

This is:

a) not relevant, since those are still post-ups

and

b) Still inaccurate, because he'd occasionally receive the ball on the block from a wing entry. He didn't do it a ton, but that's more to do with the fact that he was the on-ball guy. And of course when playing with Nixon, that was way early in his career when Kareem was still a big-minutes, MVP-level player occupying the block. Even more so once they acquired Worthy, there wasn't really room for him to do that unless Cap was on the bench. That's part of the reason we saw more of this when he was older, and in G6 of the 1980 Finals. He didn't force his personal offense unless it was necessary, which is one of his more redeeming traits.

But yeah, it's inaccurate to say he didn't post up, even constraining that phrase in the limited fashion which you used, until his comeback in 96. Yeah he did it more then, because he was playing PF and it was convenient, but while it's true that when he did post it was mostly dribble-initiated, that's not really a meaningful piece of information. He would back down at the 3pt line to protect the ball, or to get himself to the elbow (or from 20 feet), where he was a wizard at finding his teammates after warping the defense thus.

We have different definitions of the term. To me starting from 20 feet out and dribbling in is backing down.

Establishing position on the blocks to receive the ball is posting up.




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[tsherkin]

The difference was he wouldn't post up- receive the ball from an entry pass and make a quick move in the post, like worthy. Most of his back to the basket moves, especially once Nixon left, were initiated off his dribble.

This is:

a) not relevant, since those are still post-ups

and

b) Still inaccurate, because he'd occasionally receive the ball on the block from a wing entry. He didn't do it a ton, but that's more to do with the fact that he was the on-ball guy. And of course when playing with Nixon, that was way early in his career when Kareem was still a big-minutes, MVP-level player occupying the block. Even more so once they acquired Worthy, there wasn't really room for him to do that unless Cap was on the bench. That's part of the reason we saw more of this when he was older, and in G6 of the 1980 Finals. He didn't force his personal offense unless it was necessary, which is one of his more redeeming traits.

But yeah, it's inaccurate to say he didn't post up, even constraining that phrase in the limited fashion which you used, until his comeback in 96. Yeah he did it more then, because he was playing PF and it was convenient, but while it's true that when he did post it was mostly dribble-initiated, that's not really a meaningful piece of information. He would back down at the 3pt line to protect the ball, or to get himself to the elbow (or from 20 feet), where he was a wizard at finding his teammates after warping the defense thus.

We have different definitions of the term. To me starting from 20 feet out and dribbling in is backing down.

Establishing position on the blocks to receive the ball is posting up.




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Right, but this is wrong, and indicative of a flawed contemporary view of posting. A backdown is a post up. The zone is different, but still a post up. "Low post" versus other types is the distinction for which you are looking.

[picc]

Magic was one of the best post up players from a wing position ever. He had an incredibly strong base, stable center of gravity and what i'll assume is a strong core, since he could back nearly anyone in effectively regardless of position. An extremely quick pivot and spin repertoire that blew past guards, let alone forwards. Very good touch around the rim. Hook shots over either shoulder. Between that and transition points you're getting a decent PPG.

He wasn't a good enough shooter to shake and bake before a pop or iso and pull up at will, but his shot was better than his form so he could knock it down if given room and a second more to square up. Also very quick feet and surprising acceleration toward the rim. Add in the free throws he got from his size-assisted offensive rebounding and rim forays and you have your answer.

The stats you cited aren't really indicative of what he was capable of. Magic could have easily scored 30+ppg if he felt so inclined, on very good %.

[Warspite]

The difference was he wouldn't post up- receive the ball from an entry pass and make a quick move in the post, like worthy. Most of his back to the basket moves, especially once Nixon left, were initiated off his dribble.

This is:

a) not relevant, since those are still post-ups

and

b) Still inaccurate, because he'd occasionally receive the ball on the block from a wing entry. He didn't do it a ton, but that's more to do with the fact that he was the on-ball guy. And of course when playing with Nixon, that was way early in his career when Kareem was still a big-minutes, MVP-level player occupying the block. Even more so once they acquired Worthy, there wasn't really room for him to do that unless Cap was on the bench. That's part of the reason we saw more of this when he was older, and in G6 of the 1980 Finals. He didn't force his personal offense unless it was necessary, which is one of his more redeeming traits.

But yeah, it's inaccurate to say he didn't post up, even constraining that phrase in the limited fashion which you used, until his comeback in 96. Yeah he did it more then, because he was playing PF and it was convenient, but while it's true that when he did post it was mostly dribble-initiated, that's not really a meaningful piece of information. He would back down at the 3pt line to protect the ball, or to get himself to the elbow (or from 20 feet), where he was a wizard at finding his teammates after warping the defense thus.

We have different definitions of the term. To me starting from 20 feet out and dribbling in is backing down.

Establishing position on the blocks to receive the ball is posting up.




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Your forgetting that Magic was the PG so there was nobody to pass him the ball. Lakers had 3 legit 20ppg type scorers so when he gave up the ball he is not getting it back.

[DQuinn1575]

This is:

a) not relevant, since those are still post-ups

and

b) Still inaccurate, because he'd occasionally receive the ball on the block from a wing entry. He didn't do it a ton, but that's more to do with the fact that he was the on-ball guy. And of course when playing with Nixon, that was way early in his career when Kareem was still a big-minutes, MVP-level player occupying the block. Even more so once they acquired Worthy, there wasn't really room for him to do that unless Cap was on the bench. That's part of the reason we saw more of this when he was older, and in G6 of the 1980 Finals. He didn't force his personal offense unless it was necessary, which is one of his more redeeming traits.

But yeah, it's inaccurate to say he didn't post up, even constraining that phrase in the limited fashion which you used, until his comeback in 96. Yeah he did it more then, because he was playing PF and it was convenient, but while it's true that when he did post it was mostly dribble-initiated, that's not really a meaningful piece of information. He would back down at the 3pt line to protect the ball, or to get himself to the elbow (or from 20 feet), where he was a wizard at finding his teammates after warping the defense thus.

We have different definitions of the term. To me starting from 20 feet out and dribbling in is backing down.

Establishing position on the blocks to receive the ball is posting up.




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Right, but this is wrong, and indicative of a flawed contemporary view of posting. A backdown is a post up. The zone is different, but still a post up. "Low post" versus other types is the distinction for which you are looking.

Trust me I'm am probably the least contemporary person on this board. The only other time I selected a top 100 I had original celtics on it


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[DEEP3CL]

I'm curious about how did Magic used to score. Let's take his peak season, 1987, as a reference.

His scoring and efficiency numbers:

RS: 23.9 ppg .52 FG% .84 FT%. .60 TS% .52 eFG%
PO: 21.8 ppg .539 FG% .83 FT% .607 TS% .54 eFG%

Honestly, I thought Magic wouldn't have such a good FT percentage. I thought he would be around 75%, just like Lebron.

He has great efficiency numbers, but he wasn't a great shooter...or at least beyond the 3 point line.

Was Magic a great mid-range shooter? Where was his comfort zone placed? Did he used to post up a lot? Was Magic good at dribbling past the defender? Which were his main strengths when it comes to scoring? Did he have any go-to move?

Thanks!

.

Thanks Q!

Did you see him play ?

[Samurai]

I'm curious about how did Magic used to score. Let's take his peak season, 1987, as a reference.

His scoring and efficiency numbers:

RS: 23.9 ppg .52 FG% .84 FT%. .60 TS% .52 eFG%
PO: 21.8 ppg .539 FG% .83 FT% .607 TS% .54 eFG%

Honestly, I thought Magic wouldn't have such a good FT percentage. I thought he would be around 75%, just like Lebron.

He has great efficiency numbers, but he wasn't a great shooter...or at least beyond the 3 point line.

Was Magic a great mid-range shooter? Where was his comfort zone placed? Did he used to post up a lot? Was Magic good at dribbling past the defender? Which were his main strengths when it comes to scoring? Did he have any go-to move?

Thanks!

.

Thanks Q!

Frankly I am not all that surprised that Magic was a good foul shooter. He didn't have a true jumper; it was more of a set shot. And there were a fair number of good set shot players back in the day that didn't have a modern jumper but were still good free throw shooters. The truth is that outside of Hal Greer, the vast majority of players do not shoot a true jumper on a free throw; it is more of a set shot. And while some jump shooters have accurate set shots from the free throw line, not all of them do. In Magic's case, his free throws were just a reflection of his normal shooting stroke - a set shot. In this regard, Magic was similar to Jim Barnett. Barnett didn't have a true modern jump shot; his was more of a set shot. But he had 5 years shooting between 83% to 86% from the charity stripe even though his career FG% was only 43.5%. And even in his late 60's, Barnett was still spotted hitting his set shot from beyond the 3-point line before Warrior games. My point is that even though Magic was not a great outside shooter through most of his career, he was very familiar and comfortable using a set shot and that is the same motion he relied on for free throws - just like Barnett.

[Hawk]

I'm curious about how did Magic used to score. Let's take his peak season, 1987, as a reference.

His scoring and efficiency numbers:

RS: 23.9 ppg .52 FG% .84 FT%. .60 TS% .52 eFG%
PO: 21.8 ppg .539 FG% .83 FT% .607 TS% .54 eFG%

Honestly, I thought Magic wouldn't have such a good FT percentage. I thought he would be around 75%, just like Lebron.

He has great efficiency numbers, but he wasn't a great shooter...or at least beyond the 3 point line.

Was Magic a great mid-range shooter? Where was his comfort zone placed? Did he used to post up a lot? Was Magic good at dribbling past the defender? Which were his main strengths when it comes to scoring? Did he have any go-to move?

Thanks!

.

Thanks Q!

Did you see him play ?

Yes I have seen him play in some games that I downloaded, but not many.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Magic's scoring was incredibly diverse. I don't think Magc had a go to move. I don't think Magic had any scoring move that he did extremely well reliably; But Magic shot every conceivable shot fairly well. Magic did everything from a variety of low post moves to a variety of finishes on slashes to the basket to pull up off balance in your face jumpers.

Magic's scoring was based on Magic being able to take whatever was given to Magic. Even if what was given to Magic required to take a shot he does not usually take Magic could hit shots that he does not usually shoot as if those shots were part of his normal repertoire of shots. The classic eample of Magic taking whatever he was was given was his famous baby skyhook used against the Celtics in the finals:


From http://www.nba.com/history/magichook_moments.html " After a timeout, Johnson took the inbounds pass near the left sideline. He thought about launching a jumper, but lanky Kevin McHale was in his way. So he dribbled toward the key, with McHale in pursuit and Bird and Robert Parish moving over to join him. Before they could collapse on him at the foul line, however, Johnson tossed an old-fashioned running hook shot that nestled through the net, giving the Lakers the lead. After Bird missed an attempt at the buzzer, the Lakers had a 107-106 victory; they went on to win the series in six games.

Afterwards, Johnson labeled the shot "my junior, junior sky-hook," after Abdul-Jabbar's favorite weapon.

"You expect to lose to the Lakers on a sky-hook," noted Bird. "You don't expect it to be from Magic." "