RealGM Top 100 List #59

[penbeast0]

PG: Never been sold on Cousy but you have to consider him here. Nate Archibald and Penny Hardaway are the main short peak guys. Tim Hardaway and Mark Price are the best long peak guys left.

Wings: Sam Jones and Vince Carter had long outstanding careers though Sharman and Greer were considered better than Sam Jones in their peaks but the numbers for Jones look better, Arizin is the other main 50s guy. . Nique is a step down with his efficiency and defensive issues. Sidney Moncrief may be the 3rd greatest 2 guard ever . . . for 4 years, but his injuries limit his career value.

Best bigs left: My favorite is Mel Daniels with his 2 ABA MVPs and 3 rings (2 as clearly the best player) -- played like Alonzo Mourning offensively and Moses defensively. Bill Walton, Connie Hawkins, and Bob McAdoo for short peak guys . . . in that order for me I would guess. McAdoo, Neil Johnston, Amare, Issel, Spencer Haywood have offensive creds but bigs who don't play defense are problematic for me. Ben Wallace, Nate Thurmond, or the Worm also could come up here as well as guys like DeBusschere, Bobby Jones, etc., even Zelmo Beaty and Yao Ming. Lots of names to consider.


Vote: Sidney Moncrief -- very short peak but gives you GOAT man defense and superefficient 20ppg scoring. His peak is at least 1/4 of Walton's peak in my opinion and with Walton only staying reasonably healthy to the playoffs once as a starter, I'd rather take my chances on a 5 year ride with the Squid. He lost out to the Bird Celtics or (when he beat them) the fo fo fo Moses/Erving Sixers during the era of superteams and his playoffs are mixed -- he abused a young Michael Jordan's defense and had some monster runs but also some weak ones -- though his defense shut down several opposing scorers even in the weaker offensive runs.

[trex_8063]

Vote for #59: Bob Lanier.

Just to compare him to last thread's runner-up....
Prime Lanier ('72-'79)---562 rs games
Per 100 Possessions--rs ('74-'79 only; haven't got around to estimating for '72-'73): 28.5 pts, 14.2 reb, 4.5 ast, 1.4 stl, 2.4 blk, 4.3 tov @ .556 ts% (+4.6% to league)
PER 23.2, .186 WS/48, 110 ORtg/101 DRtg (+9; '78-'79 only), +5.7 BPM in 37.8 mpg
Per 100 Possessions--playoffs: 29.7 pts, 15.9 reb, 4.0 ast, 1.0 stl, 2.8 blk @ .586 ts%
PER 25.2, .221 WS/48 in 41.3 mpg
Career VORP: 39.0 (first three seasons missing; reasonable estimate for full career likely ~50)
Career rs WS: 117.1
Career playoff WS: 8.6

Prime Carter ('00-'07)---571 rs games
Per 100 Possessions--rs: 34.7 pts, 7.6 reb, 5.9 ast, 1.8 stl, 1.1 blk, 3.4 tov @ .536 ts% (+1.1% to league)
PER 22.2, .158 WS/48, 109 ORtg/105 DRtg (+4), +4.4 BPM in 37.8 mpg
Per 100 Possessions--playoffs: 33.3 pts, 8.9 reb, 6.8 ast, 1.9 stl, 1.1 blk, 3.5 tov @ .516 ts%
PER 21.4, .143 WS/48, 107 ORtg/104 DRtg (+3) in 42.2 mpg
Career VORP: 50.5
Career rs WS: 115.7
Career playoff WS: 6.8


Carter's got a bit more longevity: a few more role player years to his credit. But I like Lanier's prime better, for both rs and ps (not even particularly close in the post-season, where Lanier really played big during his prime).
I think Lanier possesses the best prime left on the table (EDIT: with the possible exception of Nique, who I could also support for this spot). And he's got 5 other non-prime seasons (368 rs games) ranging from "very good role player" to "legit All-Star". He's only got one relatively negligible season ('83), which amounts to a mere 39 games of his career whole.

[ronnymac2]

Vote: Vince Carter

My true contenders for this spot are Nate Thurmond and VC.

Vince was one of the most dynamic players in the golden era of shooting guards. His passing out of pick-n-roll while in New Jersey made him similar to his cousin, Tracy McGrady. His explosiveness, 3-point shooting, and low turnover rate in Toronto made him a super portable offensive menace for the Raptors.

After ending his prime in New Jersey, he willingly turned into a valuable role player, even coming off the bench for some strong teams like Dallas last year and Memphis this year.

Spoiler:

Bigs: Nate Thurmond, Ben Wallace, Bob Lanier, Bob McAdoo

Worms: Dennis Rodman

Wings: Vince Carter, Paul Arizin, Dominique Wilkins, Penny Hardaway, Manu Ginobili, Sidney Moncrief, Grant Hill

Point Guards: Nate Archibald, Deron Williams, Mark Price

[Owly]

I'm voting Bob Lanier. Acomposite post of my previous stuff why below. No new angles on it again. Time limited so won't modify the comps to Hayes. Carter (runoff last time) doesn't have Hayes' low (boxscore) peak problem, but didn't maintain it.

I'm voting Bob Lanier
Reasoning: looks like the best career added value by crude faux-EWA/WS combination. He's also high on a similar peak based ranking which I ended up posting a few threads back (43rd, and all those above him still available didn't maintain their peak anything close to how he did, and/or have era concerns).

Spoiler:

PPR Score PPR Rank name
29.69848481 17 Amare Stoudemire
32.80243893 18 Neil Johnston
43.56604182 25 Paul Arizin
47.38143096 26 Bob McAdoo
54.3783045 30 Walt Bellamy
55.90169944 31 Terrell Brandon
63.07138812 33 Elton Brand
65.30696747 35 Ed Macauley
67.53517602 36 Emanuel Ginobili
68.01470429 37 Arvydas Sabonis
76.53103945 42 Larry Foust
77.46612163 43 Bob Lanier

All with era concerns; longevity/peak maintainance issues and/or problems defense/intangiables (Manu probably the least but minutes is an issue; for a comp see http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 01&y2=2015).

Team level D might be held against him but his Drtg (hardly perfect, but I think sufficient for the point/claim being made) in '74 when he played 81 games led the league.

A concern might be that he missed quite a few games, including playing (just) less than 65 games and 2500 minutes for three of his five short prime/extended peak years ('76, '77 and '78 of '74-'78). Still for that 5 year span he looks like the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league (even after minutes are factored in) and he lasted much better than McAdoo.
cf:
The five year span in question http://bkref.com/tiny/64BQL
The 70s: http://bkref.com/tiny/0DbJe

Reviews on D

Lanier is the big difference. He played only when in the mood before last season. He concentrated more on stopping other teams from penetrating and fourth in blocked shots with 247.

[individual bio]
Called "Moses" by his teammates ... For leading them out of the wilderness ...... trimmer last season ...... Defense was his biggest improvement

Depending on who's in there, the Pistons can make you work. When one of the "whos" is either Trapp or Howard Porter, the opponents can relax a bit. But Rowe, Ford, Mengelt, Kevin Porter, Money and Lanier will get down and play some defense. Lanier, in fact often surprises people by jumping out to pick up guards or forwards. He also clogs the middle nicely.
[individual bio]
Has become a very intimidating defensive player who, like Dave Cowens, is not afraid to switch out on unsuspecting forwards and guards.

Somewhat confusing. Lanier is a mammoth figure to try and get around [and some other decent players but the Porters are bad and the bench "woefully weak" ... comunication and fouling called a problem, perhaps coaching semi-implied as a problem based on that?]
[individual bio]
Can rebound, block shots, play defense, do everything but clean the kitchen floor ...... [unrelated but I've touched on this] Injuries have been a problem, though, but he has always played hurt

[Vitale will be looking to emphasize D] Lanier gives him a head start. That is the advantage of having a big center. Lanier seals off the middle and is tough and aggressive.

[individual bio]Devensively he can be as imposing as Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Bill Walton or Artis Gilmore

Depending on how much you allow hypotheticals, you might also consider that Detroit rushed him back in his rookie year which may have been detrimental to his long term health.

One quick and dirty study of his impact.

'76 Pistons
team points differential over the year -86 over 82 games, -1.048780488 per game
team points differential over 18 games without Lanier -92 over 18 games, -5.111111111 per game
team points differential over 64 games with Lanier +6 over 64 games, 0.09375 per game


'77 Pistons
team points differential over the year -85 over 82 games, -1.036585366 per game
team points differential over 18 games without Lanier -107 over 18 games, -5.944444444 per game
team points differential over 64 games with Lanier 22 over 64 games, 0.34375 per game

Lanier('s impact) looks a little worse in '78
'78 Pistons
team points differential over the year -102 over 82 games, -1.243902439 per game
team points differential over 19 games without Lanier -100 over 19 games, -4.347826087 per game
team points differential over 63 games with Lanier -2 over 63 games, -0.031746032 per game

Players with as many or more top 2000(ish) player seasons (as before not absolutely up to date- LeBron should now be on there) by PER (17.9+)

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 18
Karl Malone 17
Shaquille O'Neal 17
Kevin Garnett 17
John Stockton 17
Tim Duncan 16
Hakeem Olajuwon 16
Kobe Bryant 16
Moses Malone 16
Charles Barkley 15
Paul Pierce 14
Clyde Drexler 14
Michael Jordan 13
Wilt Chamberlain 13
Dirk Nowitzki 13
Robert Parish 13
David Robinson 12
Oscar Robertson 12
Earvin "Magic" Johnson 12
Larry Bird 12
Jerry West 12
Patrick Ewing 12
Dominique Wilkins 12
Steve Nash 12
Allen Iverson 12
Bob Pettit 11
Bob Lanier 11
Adrian Dantley 11
Elgin Baylor 11
Vince Carter 11
Larry Nance 11
Pau Gasol 11
Alex English 11
Chris Webber 11

Players with as many top 2000ish player seasons as Lanier by WS/48 (.144+)

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 18
John Stockton 18
Karl Malone 17
Tim Duncan 16
Reggie Miller 16
Shaquille O'Neal 15
Hakeem Olajuwon 15
Charles Barkley 15
Kevin Garnett 14
Kobe Bryant 14
Moses Malone 13
Paul Pierce 13
Wilt Chamberlain 13
Dirk Nowitzki 13
Robert Parish 13
David Robinson 13
Oscar Robertson 13
Earvin "Magic" Johnson 12
Jerry West 12
Adrian Dantley 12
Bill Russell 12
Ray Allen 12
Michael Jordan 11
Larry Bird 11
Steve Nash 11
Bob Pettit 11
Bob Lanier 11
Larry Nance 11
Bailey Howell 11
Detlef Schrempf 11

New angle. Wins above very good. Lanier versus last times runoff loser Elvin Hayes.

Seasons in top 2046 player seasons (i.e. WS/48 .144 or above)
Number of seasons in top 2026 player seasons (i.e. PER 17.9 or above)

Obviously this is similar to the stuff above but I figured it might be interesting to see how big the gap is by this measure.

Hayes has 3 seasons above the WS/48 bar. Two clearly so, one only marginally.

'75: 2.0934375 WS Wins Above Very Good
'77: 2.032416667 WS-WAVG
'79: 0.129375 WS-WAVG

Hayes Total: 4.255229167 WS-WAVG


Lanier WS Wins Above Very Good
'74: 5.268770833 WS-WAVG
'79: 3.129479167 WS-WAVG
'76: 3.002979167 WS-WAVG
'77: 3.006541667 WS-WAVG
'75: 3.422604167 WS-WAVG
'81: 1.497354167 WS-WAVG
'82: 1.0655 WS-WAVG
'73: 1.115625 WS-WAVG
'82: 0.662 WS-WAVG
'84: 0.669 WS-WAVG
'79: 0.420520833 WS-WAVG

Total: 23.260375

In PER, Hayes has 9 seasons over the 17.9 "very good" bar. Here his extra minutes should tell more, as much as they ever will (note also that two of his top three seasons now come on the Rockets)

'77: 3.179900498 PER/EWA Wins Above Very Good
'71: 2.71119403 PER/EWA-WAVG
'72: 2.582835821 PER/EWA-WAVG
'79: 1.853731343 PER/EWA-WAVG
'75: 1.896268657 PER/EWA-WAVG
'69: '1.838308458 PER/EWA-WAVG
'76: 0.740049751 PER/EWA-WAVG
'70: 0.729353234 PER/EWA-WAVG
'74: 0.53761194 PER/EWA-WAVG

Total: 16.06925373 PER/EWA-WAVG


PER/EWA Wins Above Very Good for Lanier
'78: 7.933283582
'75: 9.659452736
'74: 9.095522388
'72: 7.99920398
'77: 6.206268657
'76: 5.642985075
'73: 6.582089552
'79: 3.469154229
'80: 2.650497512
'71: 2.107313433
'81 1.569850746

Lanier Career WAVG 62.91562189

Okay by valuing high (metrics) peaks, that favours Lanier. Still if you believe greatness is near essential for titles then it's at least worth looking at.

Other discussion from earlier threads

I'm not as familiar with Lanier, but those WOWY numbers Owly is posting make him certainly worth a big look. Still, I wonder whether he is a superior candidate to someone like Elvin Hayes.

Look at any boxscore metric and it will say Lanier peaked (much) higher, I suspect they'd all say he added more career value and tbh how "valuable" at this point in the list are, for instance, Hayes' Win Shares garnered from sub .100 WS/48 seasons - he gets 19 Win Shares from such seasons - set greatness impact replacement level at something like .120 WS/48 and you'd take a huge chunk out of his apparent contribution, ditto with PER - where he never hit 20, which Eric Murdock and Matt Geiger did, okay that's OTT, and as I've said before the range/SD seems like it might be less in the 70s but in any case that affects Lanier just as much anyway.

Lanier doesn't have Hayes' baggage as a teammate (not sure he was entirely happy/positive by the end in Detroit but nothing like Hayes) and he rates as better by the metrics in the playoffs despite playing a large chunk of his playoff career past his prime in a tough conference (80s East). Lanier being a more willing passer might make him easier to build around too.

What does Hayes have an edge in? D, probably (though positional competition isn't equal on the accolade front), and minutes. To me, it's not nearly enough.

and some more earlier opinion based stuff on portability

I can't think really of another angle to analyse this from. I'd guess he's portable as he can score from the post, he space the floor and shoot the J, and it seems like at his best (anecdotally) he could defend guys out on the floor as well as play a more conventional anchor, and his assist % is pretty strong for a big man (double Hayes' 14.4 to 7.0).

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

. . Nique is a step down with his efficiency and defensive issues.

The 1986-87 Hawks are the best defensive team in the league. Their were about four years in a row when the Hawks were the one of the top 7 defensive teams. I am not just talking about Fratello's slow pace the hawks were the best and near the best in opposing team fg%.

You can give Tree Rollins and Doc Rivers credit for that good defense but I feel Wilkens was also a good defender those years.

How much to you like Randy Whitman? Whitman is the only shooter playing with Wilkins. Wlikins has a heavy load to carry offensively. Kevin Willis is an underrated player in that he was a great rebounder and scorer but he couldn't pass and his defense wasn't that good.

Tree Rollins could not create any offense. Levingston was a good defender but his offense was taking the gift slashes to the basket that Rivers and Wilkins gave him.

Wilkins may have had some years when he did not play defense but Alex English also had some years when he did not play defense.

Wilkens averaged 10 free throw attempts per game over his career. His Career PER is 21.6, his career TS is 53%

I think you are underrating Wilkins.

Of course Bernard King was better than Wilkins when King was healthy but Bernard King was better than almost everybody when King was healthy.

No disrespect meant to Vince Carter who I sort of consider the successor to Dominique Wilkins or Dominique Wilkins light with a 3 point shot.

[penbeast0]

What convinced me that Nique was a poor defender was a combination of two things:

1. Whenever he came to town and I saw him play, our SFs had a field day (admittedly, Bernard King was one of those forwards but even guys like Darren Daye looked good against him). and
2. In a Sporting News poll, the NBA players voted him the player who put the least effort on defense in the league (don't remember the year but it made an impression).

What I loved about Nique:

He was a classy guy and loyal to his franchise (unlike Bernard King who came off very me first and mercenary in his interviews and his dealings with his teams).
He was a great fun to watch and had maybe the best nickname in the history of the NBA so it was fun to talk about him too.

[Clyde Frazier]

Definitely appreciate the lanier info. I May be leaning towards him. Have a lot of guys to look at, so i think i’ll break them up by era, compare my “winners” from each, and see where I end up.

- cousy
- sam jones
- sharman
- arizin

- carter
- nique

- lanier
- mcadoo
- thurmond

Will also give moncrief a look. Just not sure about his short prime, although mcadoo had a short prime as well, relatively speaking.

[Quotatious]

What convinced me that Nique was a poor defender was a combination of two things:

1. Whenever he came to town and I saw him play, our SFs had a field day (admittedly, Bernard King was one of those forwards but even guys like Darren Daye looked good against him). and
2. In a Sporting News poll, the NBA players voted him the player who put the least effort on defense in the league (don't remember the year but it made an impression).

What I loved about Nique:

He was a classy guy and loyal to his franchise (unlike Bernard King who came off very me first and mercenary in his interviews and his dealings with his teams).
He was a great fun to watch and had maybe the best nickname in the history of the NBA so it was fun to talk about him too.

I'm also relatively low on Wilkins (but probably not lower than an average PC board poster right now - Nique's reputation has just gotten worse over the last few years, from what I've seen), but to be fair, the Hawks were usually a solid defensive team under Fratello, and he didn't really want Wilkins to play hard on defense, because if Nique got two quick fouls in the first quarter, they would get blown out, more often than not, they were just needed him so much offensively.

Another thing to like about Dominique is that even though he was a poor playmaker, and not really an efficient scorer (usually hovered around league average TS%, except for 3.5 seasons between 1990 and 1993, when he shot almost 56% TS, in large part because he developed a decent 3-point shot at that time), he rarely turned the ball over (below 10% TOV for his career, and just 8.5% between 1988 and 1990), but the point that I'm trying to make is that Nique's relatively low scoring efficiency wasn't as bad as it looks at first glance, and also his poor defensive effort can be justified, to a certain degree.

[JordansBulls]

What's the argument for Vince over Nique?

[Owly]

. . Nique is a step down with his efficiency and defensive issues.

The 1986-87 Hawks are the best defensive team in the league. Their were about four years in a row when the Hawks were the one of the top 7 defensive teams. I am not just talking about Fratello's slow pace the hawks were the best and near the best in opposing team fg%.

You can give Tree Rollins and Doc Rivers credit for that good defense but I feel Wilkens was also a good defender those years.

How much to you like Randy Whitman? Whitman is the only shooter playing with Wilkens. Wlikens has a heavy load to carry offensively. Kevin Willis is an underrated player in that he was a great rebounder and scorer but he couldn't pass and his defense wasn't that good.

Tree Rollins could not create any offense. Levingston was a good defender but his offense was taking the gift slashes to the basket that Rivers and Wilkens gave him.

Wilkens may have had some years when he did not play defense but Alex English also had some years when he did not play defense.

Wilkens averaged 10 free throw attempts per game over his career. His Career PER is 21.6, his career TS is 53%

I think you are underrating Wilkens.

Of course Bernard King was better than Wilkens when King was healthy but Bernard King was better than almost everybody when King was healthy.

No disrespect meant to Vince Carter who I sort of consider the successor to Dominique Wilkes or Dominique Wilkes light with a 3 point shot.

Atlanta defense
The Hawks led the league in defense, holding opponents to an average of 102.8 points agame and also a league low .451 shooting percentage. They rolled up 110 a night so that's a 7.2 plus; only the Lakers had a bigger bulge. Fratello obviously has learned well from the master, Hubie Brown, on how to create chaos with traps, switches and illegal zones. Tree Rollins anchors the "D" and players like Willis, Koncak and Levingston make it nearly impossible to go in deep against the Hawks and get your rebound. Atlanta also blocked 77 more shots than the year before.

No mention of Wilkins (with 2 "i"s, "Wilkens" is how Lenny's name is spelt). Nor is there any mention of D in his individual profile. I don't think Nique was a good defender, though I might be higher on at that end than say Penbeast. From the Barry handbooks it sounds like he's generally thought of as a hard worker (overall, not necessarily on D) but maybe between minutes and his offensive load he couldn't bring it consistently on D and thus tended towards mediocre, though he was capable of better.

[Quotatious]

Vote: Bob Lanier

My top 2 candidates were Lanier and Carter, then Wilkins slightly behind as the third - it's a very close comparison, but I decided to give the nod to Lanier for his seemingly superior postseason career. He seemed to sustain his level of play from the regular season in the playoffs better than Carter or Wilkins. None of them played a lot of postseason games in their primes, but Lanier seems to have the edge. Also, he was a more efficient scorer, particularly era-relative. Pretty good rebounder (even elite in the early 70s), good passer, capable of playing good defense (especially in Milwaukee, but something about his 1973-74 season tells me that he really stepped up his defensive effort that year, kinda like Moses Malone, another generally uninspiring defender, did in 1983). Might be a case of him simply playing on weak teams most of the time in Detroit, and having to conserve more energy for offense.

Wilkins and Carter have a bit better longevity, but it's nothing major, and it's not like Lanier's career was short - he had an 8 or 9 year prime, when he averaged about 23-24 points and 12-13 rebounds per game. Other than that, he was a solid contributor in literally every season of his career.

[Quotatious]

What's the argument for Vince over Nique?

Probably defense and playmaking.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

What convinced me that Nique was a poor defender was a combination of two things:

1. Whenever he came to town and I saw him play, our SFs had a field day (admittedly, Bernard King was one of those forwards but even guys like Darren Daye looked good against him). and
2. In a Sporting News poll, the NBA players voted him the player who put the least effort on defense in the league (don't remember the year but it made an impression).
.

Off topic but why couldn't Darren Daye make it in the NBA? The post Bill Walton and Wedman Celtics were playing their starters too many minutes and they were dragging and looking slow. Meanwhile Daye had a little quickness and was showing flashes of significant offensive talent. I wanted the Celtics to play Darren Daye and Sam Vincent just to put some life into their game.


Regarding Wilkins and Bernard King http://www.msg.com/content/msgsite/en/t ... -king.html
"Dominique Wilkins was talking about his career to NBA.com a few years ago and recalled a time when small forward was the elite position in basketball. In the 1980s, for you to play the three spot and survive, you had to be good. And every single night, you had to be ready for your matchup.

Larry Bird, Julius Erving, James Worthy, Alex English, Adrian Dantley, Mark Aguirre and MSG Network's own Kelly Tripucka were all a heavy load to carry those days.

But according to 'Nique, one of the most explosive scorers and dunkers of his day, he feared no one... except the King.

"Bernard King," he said, "is the only guy that ever scared the hell out of me."

Aguirre listed three names that he said always worried him the night before a game. Bird, Worthy and King.

Bird, meanwhile, said Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson were his greatest concerns. Why not King?

"I didn't guard Bernard," he told me a few years ago.

Why?

"I had no chance guarding Bernard."

The universal respect among his peers -- which was emphasized in 1984 when he was named NBA Player of the Year by the Sporting News, which was based on a poll of NBA players --"

[Sports Realist]

Damn this is still going on.. respect to everyone participating.

Looking over the top 58, Bob Cousy still left out..

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Atlanta defense
The Hawks led the league in defense, holding opponents to an average of 102.8 points agame and also a league low .451 shooting percentage. They rolled up 110 a night so that's a 7.2 plus; only the Lakers had a bigger bulge. Fratello obviously has learned well from the master, Hubie Brown, on how to create chaos with traps, switches and illegal zones. Tree Rollins anchors the "D" and players like Willis, Koncak and Levingston make it nearly impossible to go in deep against the Hawks and get your rebound. Atlanta also blocked 77 more shots than the year before.

Nor is there any mention of D in Wilkins individual profile. I don't think Nique was a good defender, though I might be higher on at that end than say Penbeast. From the Barry handbooks it sounds like he's generally thought of as a hard worker (overall, not necessarily on D) but maybe between minutes and his offensive load he couldn't bring it consistently on D and thus tended towards mediocre, though he was capable of better.

Levingston stood out in my mind along with Rivers and Rollins as being the key defenders on the Fratello Hawks but Levingston only averaged about 24 minutes a game and usually did not start.

Konkak was imobile and did not have Tree Rollins long arms. He may have been in the right places to clog things up and he and Willis and Antoine Carr would knock people down but they lacked the speed to be good defenders. John Battle was a pesky defender but he did not play much on that league leading 1986-87 defense. Wilkins was definitely a good defender that year.

[Clyde Frazier]

Figured i’d comment on guys who I don’t see here yet that’ve had some mention:

I’ll be honest… I have a hard time evaluating players who don’t really score at all. In no way am I diminishing the impact a player can have without scoring (not NBA, but most recent memory was anthony davis in the NCAA title game having a HUGE impact without scoring in the 1st half, along with lebron passing out of the post for an entire finals game for the win).

I just look at a guy like rodman, who yes, did score 9.5 PPG on 57.7% TS from 88-92, but then completely fell off in trying to become the best rebounder in the modern era. You essentially knew as the opposing team that he wasn’t a scoring threat at all, and I’d say that helps. I also think there’s something to the argument that his being a rebound chaser took away from his attention to defense. I’m not saying I won’t support him in the project at all, just not yet, and I’d have to think hard about where that would be.

Now for Ginobili. Hell of a player who clearly has one of the best per minute / per possession impact on the court we’ve seen in a long time. However, when looking at him all time, this A) came in a reduced role and B) was hindered by an injury prone career. I loved a recent thread that asked about taking him for 1 playoff series, because that’s the kind of situation he’d thrive in. For his career, though, i think it takes a hit when you look at the big picture. He certainly has a case for landing between 60-70, i’m just not jumping on him yet.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Pebeast0 I have searched google and searched your old posts and can't find the year the Sporting News says Wilkins made the least defensive effort.

Some guy In San Antonio in 2014 on a different sports forum attributes something similar to the Sporting News but I have a hunch you are his unattributed source. I tried replacing "The Sporting News"with "TSN" and that did not help.You phrased the quote a few different ways in your various posts but using the different variations in your phrasing of the Sporting News quote just kept bringing me back to you.

I do believe you, I am just curious about what year the players said that about Wilkins defensive effort.

[penbeast0]

I didn't find it on the internet, just used to read TSN every week and remembered it and have used it when appropriate in arguments since.

As for Darren Daye, I always liked him when the Bullets drafted him too; he didn't set the world on fire but he didn't hurt you when he was in there.

[ceiling raiser]

Pebeast0 I have searched google and searched your old posts and can't find the year the Sporting News says Wilkins made the least defensive effort.

Some guy In San Antonio in 2014 on a different sports forum attributes something similar to the Sporting News but I have a hunch you are his unattributed source. I tried replacing "The Sporting News"with "TSN" and that did not help.You phrased the quote a few different ways in your various posts but using the different variations in your phrasing of the Sporting News quote just kept bringing me back to you.

I do believe you, I am just curious about what year the players said that about Wilkins defensive effort.

In case you're interested, Paper of Record has archives of old TSN issues:

https://paperofrecord.hypernet.ca/default.asp

I was subscribed (to the site, not TSN) awhile back, great read.

[SactoKingsFan]

Haven't decided who I'm voting for, but I've narrowed it down to 6 candidates:

Bigs: Lanier, Thurmond

Wings: Hill, Carter/Wilkins, Manu

Anyone else think Grant Hill should get in soon?

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