RealGM Top 100 List #91 -- Dave DeBusschere v. Mel Daniels

[penbeast0]

PG: Tim Hardaway, Mark Price, and maybe Mookie Blaylock are the players I'm looking at . . . should mention Penny Hardaway though he never impressed me as much as he did the TV guys of his day.

Forwards: Marques Johnson and Chris Mullin would be the main scorers. Bailey Howell and Bob Dandridge also come to mind. Maybe Dave DeBusschere for defensive impact.

Bigs: Mel Daniels has 2 MVPs and 3 rings, albeit in a weaker league; similarly Neil Johnston has the best raw numbers in an even weaker league than Daniels. Amare Stoudamire and Jerry Lucas bring great scoring and rebounding respectively but defensive questions (Johnston is defensively questionable too). Bill Walton has the highest peak (though that's it for true career value -- 1 year then failed to stay healthy to the playoffs the next and 1 year as a reserve role player). Maybe Yao Ming should get a mention too.

In terms of short timers, I like Daniels's game better than that of Yao Ming; Marques Johnson better than Penny Hardaway. Bailey Howell has a great resume, Jerry Lucas or Chris Mullin probably the best career numbers at this point. Others I can be convinced of.

There are a lot of other good players but as we are into the last 10, that's my short list.



VOTE Mel Daniels. Do I go for a good player with a long career, or a dominant player with a shorter one. If my goal is to win titles, I think I go for the best 5 year peak. In this case, that's Mel Daniels. 2 time MVP with 3 titles, rebounding titles, physical defense, that's a combination that is very portable and able to be a key component of title winning teams more easily than anyone else except Bill Walton whose run as a key championship component is just too short (1 year).

[trex_8063]

Well, as there are now just 10 spots remaining, I thought it might be interesting to hear who are the 10 (or so) remaining players each of you most wants to see get in (roughly in order of priority, if possible).

My ATL has changed substantially since the start of the project. As my list stands right now: all of my personal top 84 have already been voted in, as well as the guy I have at #88, two players I have in the 91-100 range, and three guys who are outside my top 100 (though in my top 110). So I still have 13 guys on the table from my personal top 100, and only ten spots left.

Below are the top 10(ish) guys (more or less in order) that I'd most like to get voted in:

1-3. Jack Sikma/Jerry Lucas/Dave DeBusschere
4-5. George McGinnis/Walt Bellamy
6-7. Chris Mullin/Tim Hardaway
8-9. Neil Johnston/Joe Dumars
10. one of Dennis Johnson, Amar'e Stoudemire, or Bill Sharman

[SactoKingsFan]

Everyone in my top 86 has been voted in plus a few that I have ranked in 90-100 range.

I have 11 players on my list that haven't been voted in:

Kemp/Mullin
Daniels
DeBusschere
Marques Johnson
Dumars/Porter
Sikma/Jerry Lucas/ Tim Hardaway
Schrempf

[ceiling raiser]

Throwing a name out there...does Michael Cooper have any argument for one of these last spots? My initial thinking is probably not, but I feel like he's a guy who'd thrive today.

EDIT: trex_8063 had an interesting thread on him last year: viewtopic.php?t=1305757 (this is the article linked: http://www74.zippyshare.com/v/mFXSKMcB/file.html seems the old one is dead).

EDIT 2: Completely unrelated, but it looks like the guy mentioned in that article (Rich Steinlauf) did some tracking a few years later as well: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1991 ... ls-rebound

I'm going to see if I can contact him, maybe he has some other plus-minus numbers somewhere.

[penbeast0]

Everyone in my top 86 has been voted in plus a few that I have ranked in 90-100 range.

I have 11 players on my list that haven't been voted in:

Kemp/Mullin
Daniels
DeBusschere
Marques Johnson
Dumars/Porter
Sikma/Jerry Lucas/ Tim Hardaway
Schrempf

Terry Porter rather than Kevin I assume. Pretty close to my list though I have Mark Price over Terry Porter (thinking about it, you might be more right than I am . . . ) and am still waiting for someone who promised us a post to convince us that Mookie Blaylock was the best PG left.

[Clyde Frazier]

Definitely feeling a bit constrained with only 10 spots left. Probably about 15 guys I think deserve to make it. Will try to come back with a rough 10 and a vote later today.

[trex_8063]

Throwing a name out there...does Michael Cooper have any argument for one of these last spots? My initial thinking is probably not, but I feel like he's a guy who'd thrive today.

EDIT: trex_8063 had an interesting thread on him last year: viewtopic.php?t=1305757 (this is the article linked: http://www74.zippyshare.com/v/mFXSKMcB/file.html seems the old one is dead).

EDIT 2: Completely unrelated, but it looks like the guy mentioned in that article (Rich Steinlauf) did some tracking a few years later as well: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1991 ... ls-rebound

I'm going to see if I can contact him, maybe he has some other plus-minus numbers somewhere.

Speaking for myself, no, I don't think we can make a credible top 100 case for Coop. It's getting to be an old (and large) league......the top 100 is some fairly rarefied company in this day and age. Cooper was more or less mediocre/average offensively, and only averaged 27.1 mpg for his career besides (never as much as even 33 mpg in any single season); and his longevity is basically average, too. To me, being an elite perimeter defender isn't enough of a counter-balance to prop him up into the top 100. Top 150....perhaps, top 200: likely.

[trex_8063]

I know I listed Sikma, Lucas, and DeBusschere as the primary three I was considering for this spot, but I was taking a closer look at Walt Bellamy......and I'm fairly impressed by what I'm seeing.

Statistically he looks like a beast. However, he does carry some of the same concerns which I touched on in the Elton Brand debate: basically the issue of team success. He spent much of his career on poor teams (especially his big seasons). So it does raise some concerns: was he an "empty stats" guy, whose production and efficiency did not translate into team impact? Or maybe he was making a big impact, but those teams were just SO bad, and would have done considerably worse without him. Although even if the latter is the case, one still must wonder if being on such an abysmal team wasn't inflating his stats (i.e. the reason he had such primacy is because the team was so terrible).
Anyway, just putting those worries out there; you all can scrutinize the rosters and circumstances and glean your own conclusions. I've taken the time to come up with Per 100 Possession estimates for Bellamy's career, which I'll show below (so we can make some sense of those pace-inflated days) alongside relative TS% and mpg, as well as team record by year and a little commentary (with the above concerns in mind)......

Walt Bellamy (Per 100 possessions)
'62: 29.1 pts, 17.5 reb, 2.5 ast @ +7.56% rts in 42.3 mpg. That's seriously beasting: those numbers with that efficiency, and particularly while playing such heavy minutes. Team a worst in the league 18-62, though.
'63: 28.9 pts, 16.9 reb, 3.0 ast @ +7.82% rts in 41.3 mpg. Again, that's pretty wickedly good. Team somewhat better 25-55.
'64: 26.1 pts, 16.5 reb, 1.5 ast @ +7.02% rts in 42.4 mpg. Slight dip in numbers, though still very good; team closer to mediocre, too, at 31-49.
'65: 24.8 pts, 14.6 reb, 2.4 ast @ +8.01% rts in 41.3 mpg. Avgs per 100 take another slight dip, though at the best shooting efficiency so far (+8% is seriously elite). And what's more this was for a team that pretty close to middle of the pack at 37-43, and who then OVER-achieved in the post-season, upsetting a "better" Hawks team 3-1 in the first round, and then going six games against the Lakers in the WCF. Individually, Bellamy's scoring suffered in the playoffs, though his rebound and assist numbers both went UP.

**I admit I don't know much about how he was defensively (by reputation he appears to be not all that special); but he otherwise really looks fantastic over those first four seasons: collectively at around 27.3 pts/16.5 reb/2.4 ast per 100 possessions @ ~+7.5% rts while playing 41.8 mpg.

'66: 21.2 pts, 14.6 reb, 2.7 ast @ +5.63% rts in 41.9 mpg. This season mostly played for 30-50 Knicks team.
'67: 20.2 pts, 14.3 reb, 2.8 ast @ +6.64% rts in 38.1 mpg. Team was 36-45 in the rs, and took one game off the Celtics in the first round of the playoffs.
'68: 20.9 pts, 14.6 reb, 2.5 ast @ +8.52% rts in 32.9 mpg (first season of his career with somewhat sub-star level minutes). Numbers looks very good otherwise (hyper-elite shooting efficiency). Team was 43-39, lost 1st round of playoffs.
'69: 20.3 pts, 14.6 reb, 2.3 ast @ +6.46% rts in 35.9 mpg. This season was split: about 40% of it played with a very good Knicks team, about 60% with a 32-50 Pistons team.
'70: 19.3 pts, 14.9 reb, 3.0 ast @ +3.80% rts in 25.7 mpg. First 2/3 of this season played with a mediocre Pistons team, last third with a pretty good Hawks team (was actually playing BIGGER minutes with the good Hawks team).
'71: 16.9 pts, 14.9 reb, 3.2 ast @ +3.48% rts in 35.5 mpg. Team was 36-46, 1st round exit in playoffs.
'72: 20.8 pts, 14.3 reb, 3.6 ast @ +6.30% rts in a big 38.9 mpg. Sort of a late-career resurgence; this team again 36-46, 1st round exit.
'73: 18.0 pts, 14.5 reb, 2.7 ast @ +2.86% rts in 37.9 mpg. Team a pretty decent 46-36, lost to Celtics in 1st round.
'74: 18.0 pts, 13.1 reb, 3.4 ast, 0.9 stl, 0.9 blk @ +0.5% rts in 31.7 mpg. Team was 35-47.


I know Bellamy didn't exactly take care of himself, but he was still quite durable nonetheless. And the above shows he was at least a valuable role player (intangibles aside)---if not borderline all-star in some years---thru pretty much the entirety of his career.

idk, I'm thinking about casting in for him here. Thoughts?

[SactoKingsFan]

Everyone in my top 86 has been voted in plus a few that I have ranked in 90-100 range.

I have 11 players on my list that haven't been voted in:

Kemp/Mullin
Daniels
DeBusschere
Marques Johnson
Dumars/Porter
Sikma/Jerry Lucas/ Tim Hardaway
Schrempf

Terry Porter rather than Kevin I assume. Pretty close to my list though I have Mark Price over Terry Porter (thinking about it, you might be more right than I am . . . ) and am still waiting for someone who promised us a post to convince us that Mookie Blaylock was the best PG left.

Mark Price would be on my list if I extended it to 110. I have Terry Porter over Price for his edge in longevity/durability with more relevant/quality post prime seasons. Porter also had some impressive long playoff runs with POR from 90-92.

[Quotatious]

Vote: Dave DeBusschere

Very versatile player - could score (not very efficiently - just about league average TS% in the 60s, but he had a pretty good range on his jumper - I saw him make 20-23 footers a lot of times, and even some shots from today's 3-point land), rebound (11 rebounds per game for his career as a 6'6'' or 6'7'', 220-225 lbs forward), quite possibly the best non-center defender of his era, good passer, very unselfish, smart, played with tremendous effort every game, and had some of the best "intangibles" of any player in NBA history. Excellent athlete, too (played in two pro leagues - NBA and briefly also in the MLB). Pretty good longevity - 10 year prime, and there are indications that he could've played a few more years on a high level, if he wanted to - in his last season, '73-'74, he averaged almost 18/11/4, and had probably the best scoring season of his career.

His advanced metrics are really mediocre, but he seems to be one of those guys who's impact goes beyond boxscore numbers. He was just a workhorse out there on the court, and he really reminds me of John Havlicek and especially Dave Cowens (Hondo is in since #30, Cowens since #52).
Also, how about the fact that DeBusschere became a player-coach at age 24? Speaks volumes about his basketball acumen and leadership qualities.

Let's take a look at the '68-'69 Knicks, as an example of DeBusschere's impact - before the Bellamy/DeBusschere trade, Knicks were 18-16, 52.9% W (with Bellamy), after the trade, they were 36-11, 76.6% W (with DeBusschere). Considering that New York didn't make any other changes to their roster (well, they also lost their backup point guard Howard Komives, who was traded to Detroit along with Bellamy), that's instant impact personified, right there.

[SactoKingsFan]

Vote: Shawn Kemp

Kemp had questionable BBIQ and well-documented maturity issues, but he was still an explosive scorer during his prime due to exceptional athleticism and quickness, a good/very good defender, excellent rebounder from 92-96 (pretty good after 96) and decent shot blocker for a big. Had some great prime playoff runs in SEA.

6x All-Star
3x All-NBA 2nd Team
3x top 10 in MVP voting

Prime Kemp RS (92-99):
Per 100: 28.7 PTS, 16.3 REB, 3.3, AST, 4.6 STL + BLK, 5.0 TOV, 110 ORtg, 99 DRtg

21.2 PER, .577 TS%, .557 FTr, 18.8 TRB%, 10.9 AST%, 3.4 BLK%, 2.2 STL%, 16.9 TOV%, 72.4 WS, .180 WS/48

Prime Kemp PS (92-98):
Per 100: 28.5 PTS, 15.9 REB, 3.1 AST, 4.6 STL + BLK, 5.1 TOV, 113 ORtg, 104 DRtg

21.8 PER, .594 TS%, .605 FTr, 18.0 TRB%, 10.7 AST%, 4.0 BLK%, 1.9 STL%, 17.4 TOV%, .171 WS/48

[trex_8063]

I know I listed Sikma, Lucas, and DeBusschere as the primary three I was considering for this spot, but I was taking a closer look at Walt Bellamy......and I'm fairly impressed by what I'm seeing.

Statistically he looks like a beast. However, he does carry some of the same concerns which I touched on in the Elton Brand debate: basically the issue of team success. He spent much of his career on poor teams (especially his big seasons). So it does raise some concerns: was he an "empty stats" guy, whose production and efficiency did not translate into team impact? Or maybe he was making a big impact, but those teams were just SO bad, and would have done considerably worse without him. Although even if the latter is the case, one still must wonder if being on such an abysmal team wasn't inflating his stats (i.e. the reason he had such primacy is because the team was so terrible).
Anyway, just putting those worries out there; you all can scrutinize the rosters and circumstances and glean your own conclusions. I've taken the time to come up with Per 100 Possession estimates for Bellamy's career, which I'll show below (so we can make some sense of those pace-inflated days) alongside relative TS% and mpg, as well as team record by year and a little commentary (with the above concerns in mind)......

Walt Bellamy (Per 100 possessions)
'62: 29.1 pts, 17.5 reb, 2.5 ast @ +7.56% rts in 42.3 mpg. That's seriously beasting: those numbers with that efficiency, and particularly while playing such heavy minutes. Team a worst in the league 18-62, though.
'63: 28.9 pts, 16.9 reb, 3.0 ast @ +7.82% rts in 41.3 mpg. Again, that's pretty wickedly good. Team somewhat better 25-55.
'64: 26.1 pts, 16.5 reb, 1.5 ast @ +7.02% rts in 42.4 mpg. Slight dip in numbers, though still very good; team closer to mediocre, too, at 31-49.
'65: 24.8 pts, 14.6 reb, 2.4 ast @ +8.01% rts in 41.3 mpg. Avgs per 100 take another slight dip, though at the best shooting efficiency so far (+8% is seriously elite). And what's more this was for a team that pretty close to middle of the pack at 37-43, and who then OVER-achieved in the post-season, upsetting a "better" Hawks team 3-1 in the first round, and then going six games against the Lakers in the WCF. Individually, Bellamy's scoring suffered in the playoffs, though his rebound and assist numbers both went UP.

**I admit I don't know much about how he was defensively (by reputation he appears to be not all that special); but he otherwise really looks fantastic over those first four seasons: collectively at around 27.3 pts/16.5 reb/2.4 ast per 100 possessions @ ~+7.5% rts while playing 41.8 mpg.

'66: 21.2 pts, 14.6 reb, 2.7 ast @ +5.63% rts in 41.9 mpg. This season mostly played for 30-50 Knicks team.
'67: 20.2 pts, 14.3 reb, 2.8 ast @ +6.64% rts in 38.1 mpg. Team was 36-45 in the rs, and took one game off the Celtics in the first round of the playoffs.
'68: 20.9 pts, 14.6 reb, 2.5 ast @ +8.52% rts in 32.9 mpg (first season of his career with somewhat sub-star level minutes). Numbers looks very good otherwise (hyper-elite shooting efficiency). Team was 43-39, lost 1st round of playoffs.
'69: 20.3 pts, 14.6 reb, 2.3 ast @ +6.46% rts in 35.9 mpg. This season was split: about 40% of it played with a very good Knicks team, about 60% with a 32-50 Pistons team.
'70: 19.3 pts, 14.9 reb, 3.0 ast @ +3.80% rts in 25.7 mpg. First 2/3 of this season played with a mediocre Pistons team, last third with a pretty good Hawks team (was actually playing BIGGER minutes with the good Hawks team).
'71: 16.9 pts, 14.9 reb, 3.2 ast @ +3.48% rts in 35.5 mpg. Team was 36-46, 1st round exit in playoffs.
'72: 20.8 pts, 14.3 reb, 3.6 ast @ +6.30% rts in a big 38.9 mpg. Sort of a late-career resurgence; this team again 36-46, 1st round exit.
'73: 18.0 pts, 14.5 reb, 2.7 ast @ +2.86% rts in 37.9 mpg. Team a pretty decent 46-36, lost to Celtics in 1st round.
'74: 18.0 pts, 13.1 reb, 3.4 ast, 0.9 stl, 0.9 blk @ +0.5% rts in 31.7 mpg. Team was 35-47.


I know Bellamy didn't exactly take care of himself, but he was still quite durable nonetheless. And the above shows he was at least a valuable role player (intangibles aside)---if not borderline all-star in some years---thru pretty much the entirety of his career.

idk, I'm thinking about casting in for him here. Thoughts?

OK, quoting myself to make a comparison to the guy I was strongly considering casting a vote for.

Bellamy's "good numbers" go well beyond those first four seasons. Over his first ELEVEN seasons (which accounts for 891 rs games of a "potential 891"--->he missed one game in '62, two in '67, three in '70, but thru a mid-season trade managed to play 88 games in a 82-game season in '69), he had the following approximate per 100 averages:

~23.0-23.5 pts, 15.5 reb, 2.5 ast, +6.5% rTS while averaging 37.8 mpg.

Again, that's over ELEVEN durable seasons.


Now let me compare that to who I've been strongly considering: Jack Sikma.

If we take a look at an extended prime ('79-'88, 797 rs games) for Sikma, his Per 100 Possessions numbers for comparison:

23.2 pts, 14.7 reb, 4.6 ast, 1.5 stl, 1.4 blk, 3.4 tov @ +0.7% rTS while averaging 35.0 mpg.

Quite similar except Sikma averages more assists, Bellamy has considerably better shooting efficiency.

I acknowledge defense is the thing not sufficiently accounted for here. Sikma's not much of a rim-protector, but he was an excellent low-post defender. At the time, I only saw an old Sikma (who was slow); video I've seen of a younger Sikma he still doesn't look overly quick. So I don't know how he'd do defending pick n' rolls and such. Nonetheless, I'm certainly willing to give him the edge defensively, especially because I'm not huge on era portability (though I do like Sikma's range, not to mention his passing, where that is concerned).
Overall, this still looks quite close (and this without throwing guys like DeBusschere, Lucas, or George McGinnis into the mix).

Hmmm......

[Doctor MJ]

Vote: Bill Walton

Okay, I feel like I have to put this out there because there are players bandied about right now that I feel like people aren't really that excited about but simply don't have the anchor around them Walton does. Maybe Walton still doesn't deserve it, but let's remember:

He had a 2 year run that wasn't almost unimaginably impactful. This led to teams that while he was healthy weren't simply the best around, they were easily the best teams of the era that began after the '72 Lakers and didn't end until the Bird/Magic era reached full swing - all teams that were essentially super-teams. The Blazers were not that, they just played like it with Walton in there.

Remember also that from a championship probability perspective the gap between Walton and these other guys being discussed isn't something like a 25% peak edge, either one of these two Walton years could be argued to be as important as a solid 5 year prime for other all-stars.

[penbeast0]

Walton had a 1 and 1/2 year run, not a 2 year run. He didn't make it to the playoffs in the second year which is what the real problem with Walton was . . . you couldn't count on him to EVER make it through the season. If he had had stretches where he was out but been able to come back and be Walton in the playoffs even 5-8 times, he'd be a top 20 player all time. That wasn't the case. He made it to the playoffs as a top player ONCE (and once as a reserve in Boston).

[trex_8063]

Not had the level of discussion I'd hoped for. Everyone's out of steam, I guess.

Going to switch gears and make a somewhat political pick (he was always one of my top 3-4 for this spot), because he appears to have some ancillary support already. Vote for #91: Dave DeBusschere.

Quot made a very nice post about him, indicating his impact. The Knicks' stellar team defense seems to correspond to DeBusschere's arrival, too (some other mitigating factors though). If I had to pick a modern day player he kind of reminds me of, Draymond Green is who comes to mind. Versatile and active defender, real hustle guy. Completely solid (if not bordering on elite) rebounder for playing sort of dual-forward (SF/PF) position, averaging around 13 reb/100 possessions for his career.

I think some of his shooting efficiency woes are a product of the time period, and I do think it would improve in other eras/settings (I do think he'd have benefited from the existence of a 3pt line).

Perfectly suitable spot for DD to make the list, so I'll cast in with him.

[trex_8063]

Thru post #15:

Mel Daniels (1) - penbeast0

Dave DeBusschere (2) - Quotatious, trex_8063

Shawn Kemp (1) - SactoKingsFan

Bill Walton (1) - Doctor MJ

...and sadly, that appears to be it.

[ronnymac2]

Vote: Dave DeBusschere

Q's post on him is spot on. I made the comparison that for his era, he was a Draymond Green ancestor. Amazing defense as a 3/4 who gives nothing up on the glass, smart passer, and spreads the floor with his solid outside jump shot, which is particularly a perk when he's at the PF position. We've seen what Draymond Green's impact can be this season on what looks like an all-time great team, and we saw what Dave could do on a few all-time great teams himself. Dave's got solid longevity, too.

[Clyde Frazier]

Vote for #91 - Mel Daniels

While I’ve stressed longevity throughout the project, I was in favor of reed getting in at 47, and see similarities between him and daniels in both style of play and career trajectory. Both players were skilled, but ultimately imposing big men who used their size, strength and defensive mindset to control the game. Both were defensive anchors for multiple championship teams, and consistently productive for 7+ seasons. Even if we agree that the ABA was a lesser league, that’s still more than impressive. And while he has the #s to back it up, what you hear most from people is again how he controlled the game.

Mel was the workhorse on that team. Mel just put the fear in people.

-- Julius Erving

Per Pat Cosgrove via Remember The ABA:

During Game 5 of the 1971-72 ABA Finals against the Nets, Daniels made a couple of plays (in succession) that I'll never forget. As I recall, the series was tied 2-2 and the Nets jumped out to a huge lead on the Pacers home court. The Pacers staged a wild rally -- mainly due to a 3-point barrage by Billy Keller. However, the Nets looked like they would hold on for the upset. Rick Barry hit a couple of big hoops and then made a spectacular move to get past Roger Brown. He seemed to be cruising in for an easy left-handed layup. But Daniels came out of nowhere to reject the shot right into the hands of Freddie Lewis. Lewis then led the break and dished off to a hard-charging Daniels -- who dunked and was fouled.

The momentum reverted to the Pacers and they won that crucial contest. If this sequence had occurred in the NBA Finals, you can be sure that we would have seen the film replayed as much as Willie Mays' catch in the '54 World Series.

[penbeast0]

Well, I see ronnymac2 who had voted Mel Daniels before has gone over to DeBusschere but now Clyde Frazier has come on board so that brings us to our runoff . . . Daniels v. DeBusschere.

Both good defenders, both played for one for of the elite teams of the period, Daniels was the superior scorer and rebounder, DeBusschere has much superior longevity (and more votes at the moment).

[Clyde Frazier]

Mel Daniels Career Perspective

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlPkdbReX28[/youtube]

Mel Daniels 73 ABA Finals

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8W0TlyUgGE[/youtube]