RealGM Top 100 List #95 Only 6 spots left!

[penbeast0]

PG: Tim Hardaway, Mark Price, and maybe Mookie Blaylock are the players I'm looking at . . . should mention Penny Hardaway though he never impressed me as much as he did the TV guys of his day.

Wings: Marques Johnson has the most impressive peak. Bailey Howell, Chet Walker, Jamaal Wilkes and Bob Dandridge had longer careers, if lower peaks, and also come to mind.

Bigs: Amare Stoudamire and Jerry Lucas bring great scoring and rebounding respectively but defensive questions (Neil Johnston maybe even better numbers in the weak 50s but defensively questionable too). Bill Walton has the highest peak (though that's it for true career value -- 1 year then failed to stay healthy to the playoffs the next and 1 year as a reserve role player). Sean Kemp and Yao Ming should get mentions though neither played with a high BBIQ.

Compare --
Hardaway, Price, and Blaylock as the top PGs;
Walker, Wilkes, Dandridge, and Hornacek as the top wings
Howell, Amare, Lucas, Johnston, Kemp, and Walt Bellamy as top scoring bigs
Yao Ming, Marques Johnson, Penny Hardaway, or Gus Williams as the top short peak players

But right now I'm going to throw a vote to Bob Dandridge. Excellent defender, smart player, good scorer . . . the type of complimentary player that helps you win rings as he did in both Milwaukee and Washington.

[Sasaki]

I don't know enough to vote, but I decided to just list the 10 highest players in Win Shares and VORP not on this list.
Win Shares:
35. Walt Bellamy
45. Buck Williams
48. Chet Walker
53. Bailey Howell
57. Terry Porter
60. Detlef Schrempf
63. Jeff Hornacek
66. Otis Thorpe
67. Zelmo Beaty
70. Sam Perkins

VORP:
36. Vlade Divac
37. Eddie Jones
43. Jeff Hornacek
45. Andrei Kirilenko
51. Alvan Adams
52. Andre Iguodala
53. Mookie Blaylock
59. Alvin Robertson
60. Shane Battier
62. Lamar Odom

I do think Hornacek might be interesting, especially since a lot of the detraction surrounding Stockton has been that Utah's offense did just fine when Hornacek played a bigger role on those 97 and 98 teams. Solid player for most of a 13-year career.

[SactoKingsFan]

Vote: Shawn Kemp

Kemp had questionable BBIQ and well-documented maturity issues, but he was still an explosive scorer during his prime due to exceptional athleticism and quickness, a good/very good defender, excellent rebounder from 92-96 (pretty good after 96) and decent shot blocker for a big. Had some great prime playoff runs in SEA.

6x All-Star
3x All-NBA 2nd Team
3x top 10 in MVP voting

Prime Kemp RS (92-99):
Per 100: 28.7 PTS, 16.3 REB, 3.3, AST, 4.6 STL + BLK, 5.0 TOV, 110 ORtg, 99 DRtg

21.2 PER, .577 TS%, .557 FTr, 18.8 TRB%, 10.9 AST%, 3.4 BLK%, 2.2 STL%, 16.9 TOV%, 72.4 WS, .180 WS/48

Prime Kemp PS (92-98):
Per 100: 28.5 PTS, 15.9 REB, 3.1 AST, 4.6 STL + BLK, 5.1 TOV, 113 ORtg, 104 DRtg

21.8 PER, .594 TS%, .605 FTr, 18.0 TRB%, 10.7 AST%, 4.0 BLK%, 1.9 STL%, 17.4 TOV%, .171 WS/48

[penbeast0]

I had forgotten about Hornacek. Let's take a look at the career numbers:

Per Game
Kemp 8.4reb 1.6ast (2.6to) 14.6pts on .555ts%
Dandridge 6.8reb 3.4ast (2.7to) 18.5pts on .524ts% (didn't draw fouls like Kemp, didn't have a 3 point shot available like Hornacek)
Hornacek 3.4reb 4.9ast (1.8to) 14.5pts on .582ts%

Per 100 possessions
Kemp 15.5reb 3.0ast (4.9to) 26.9pts 6.7fo
Dandridge 8.1reb 4.5ast (1.6to) 25.0pts 4.5fo
Hornacek 5.4reb 7.8ast (2.9to) 23.1pts 3.5fo

Playoffs
Kemp (33.4min) 9.7reb 1.8ast (3.1to) 17.3pts
Dandridge (39.6min) 7.7reb 3.7ast (3.1to) 20.1pts
Hornacek (34.0min) 3.8reb 3.8ast (1.7to) 14.9pts

PER is relatively even but Hornacek blows the other two away in WS, VORP, and is the best in Playoff WS and VORP as well.

Defense is Dandridge's big edge as he was considered a top defensive forward, Kemp was inconsistent defensively, and Hornacek was average at best.

None of the 3 really blow away the others in terms of career numbers. Hornacek's ability to hit 3's at an outstanding rate is tempting but I will stick with Dandridge for his defense and clutch play.

[trex_8063]

On the topic of Walt Bellamy (as I could easily get behind him here; another excellent candidate at this point, can he get some love?):
....

Can you do a comparison of him with the other relatively weak defense bigs that have been getting mentions: Neil Johnston, Jerry Lucas, and Amare Stoudamire . . . and Spencer Haywood too if you think he belongs there.

penbeast0 asked this in last thread, thought I'd relocate it.


Extended prime Per 100 possession estimates, relative ts% and other adv metrics:

Neil Johnston ('53-'58; 424 rs games)
26-26.5 pts, 15 reb, 3-3.5 ast @ +8.64% rts
PER 25.2, .249 WS/48 in 39.9 mpg

Jerry Lucas ('64-'72; 685 rs games)
18.5-19 pts, 17.5 reb, 3+ ast @ +5.18% rts
PER 19.3, .147 WS/48 in 41.6 mpg

Walt Bellamy ('62-'72; 891 rs games
23-23.5 pts, 15.5 reb, 2.5 ast @ +6.5% rts
PER 20.5, .167 WS/48 in 37.8 mpg

Amar'e Stoudemire ('05-'11; 457 rs games)
33.8 pts, 12.7 reb, 2.3 ast, 1.2 stl, 2.2 blk, 3.8 tov @ +7.59% rts
PER 24.0, .196 WS/48, BPM +1.8, 117 ORtg/107 DRtg (+10) in 34.9 mpg
VORP 15.3


One important thing to remember when comparing guys of different eras like this (difference most dramatically seen when comparing Johnston to Stoudemire) is that league avg shooting %'s were lower in these older eras than in the current one. Consequently, per 100 pts and ast numbers trend lower for those eras, while rebounding numbers trend higher.

So Johnston appears the most dominant of the four, although obv era considerations apply. The two guys who statistically look the most impressive are also the two with the least impressive longevity/durability. Johnston's is, imo, more forgivable, given the era played in (poor medicine, poor shoe technology, little financial motive to really conserve your body for a long career, etc). So Amar'e the worst for longevity/durability; Bellamy looks the best in that regard.

Not sure who gets the edge defensively; none of them have a particularly good reputation, though I'd probably put Amar'e toward the bottom in that regard. Based on Samarai's descriptions, perhaps Lucas is the most defensively competent???

Amar'e probably has the best rep as a playoff performer.

By reputation (and I guess by the numbers) Lucas is likely the best passer/playmaker, for what that's worth in a big-man; Lucas clearly the best rebounder as well. Where era portability is concerned, his offensive skill-set translates forward in time very very well, too.


So where does that leave us at the end of the day? idk....they all seem pretty close. I lean toward Lucas or Bellamy myself, though it's nearly splitting hairs.

[trex_8063]

I'll cast a vote again for Jerry Lucas, for reasons stated in prior threads (can copy and paste, if you want). Scant bit of info/comparison to some other bigs in post above. I'd be happy backing any number of candidates here, but since I'm not necessarily convinced of the superiority of anyone else, I'll just stick with who I voted for previously.

[Quotatious]

Vote - Shawn Kemp

Excellent scorer (very efficient, very good midrange shooter with good range, great finisher, decent midrange shooter), rebounder (17.8% TRB for his career - exactly the same as Shaq's, for example), pretty good defender (wouldn't call him a defensive "anchor", because his defensive awareness/intelligence wasn't very high, but he was a great athlete - very strong, ran the floor well, good instincts for shotblocking, solid 1 on 1 defender in the post), very good playoff performer (his career advanced metrics go up compared to RS, as well as TS%). decent enough longevity (had 10 seasons when he averaged at least 15 points and 8.4 rebounds).

Mediocre passer, very turnover and foul prone, not very smart in terms of bball IQ, but still a very good player. Great peak, too (especially in the '96 playoffs, he was terrific - more than held his own against Karl Malone in the WCF (shot 69% from the field and almost 74% TS ), and then scored very efficiently against Rodman in the finals (23.3 ppg on 63.3% TS - that kind of efficiency so deep in the playoffs is very impressive).

I'm not much of a believer in Jerry Lucas' impact, so I'm going with Kemp here. They're like polar opposites - Lucas wasn't a great athlete, but he was unusually intelligent, great passer, while Kemp was much more of an instinctual player, athletic freak. I just see Kemp's defense as so much better than Lucas' that I won't even hesitate taking Kemp over Lucas.

[Clyde Frazier]

Vote for #95 - Shawn Kemp

Was going back and forth between kemp and lucas for a while. There's a good chance lucas will be my next vote. I was a huge fan of kemp on the sonics, so i'm trying not to let that cloud my judgment. That said, the way he fizzled out in cleveland really bothers me, but I guess that's why he hasn't been voted in yet. I've also been thinking about amare, who basically has 9 seasons as an above average to star player, but i'll give kemp the edge as a better defender.

Solid overall playoff career, albeit with a few upsets, but i think his 96 finals run kinda off sets that. He was excellent that year:

Playoffs - http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SEA/1996.html

Finals - http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ml#CHI-SEA

And yeah, my vote wouldn't be complete without getting a little nostalgic

Spoiler:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQeMhYJe5JA[/youtube]

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[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfM1GrwPACk[/youtube]

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[ronnymac2]

Vote: Shawn Kemp

Not a fan of his offense. Elite finisher and offensive rebounder, but he does a lot of negative on that end as well. Seattle didn't seem to miss his offense when he left.

That said, strong defender. He's a portable defensive big man, too. Defensive portability exists in my opinion. There generally is far less overlap between defensive players than offensive players, but I think it can still exist.

Say I have two elite rim protectors: Mark Eaton and Rudy Gobert. I can form a badass wall around the rim. But what happens when I face an elite pick-n-roll/shooting team. Say they have Nash or Curry and can just pick me off from outside. Well then I'd want one of my bigs to be a pseudo-anchor in the traditional sense — protect the rim, guard the post, box out opposing behemoths — but also capable of guarding the pick-n-roll and getting out on wings. Dray Green. Kemp. Sheed. Taj Gibson.

Kemp can work with Gobert. He can work with Tyson Chandler as dual pseudo-anchors (though Chandler is closer to a traditional anchor than Kemp). Kemp can even work with an average defender like Sam Perkins or Ryan Anderson if you really want to maximize your offensive potential.

Rebounding also has a portability factor in my opinion, but that's for another discussion.

Anyway, voting for arguably the best in-game dunking big man in NBA history.

[penbeast0]

Kemp runs away with this one.